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Author Topic: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!  (Read 25043 times)

Farmer

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https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2018/03/10/how-much-do-nato-member-nations-spend-on-defense/
Since 2014 most have increased spending, to meet the goal of 2% by 2024, as agreed.

And that's why Trump was full of it the entire time.  They already had an agreed plan to increase spending over a period but he just kept making up his own version claiming they weren't spending as agreed by ignoring the target dates and then compared total US expenditure instead of the portion on NATO (just to compound the BS). 
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LesPalenik

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By not having to pay what Germany is going to pay now?

I still fail to see how the increased military purchases from German defense contractors will help Joe. But let me explain it from my very own personal perspective.
I am in favor and active participant in the Northamerican trade. Just today, I bought two pounds of California strawberries and three pounds of Washington cherries. Excellent stuff. Sweet, juicy and cheaper than the Ontario equivalent produce. I don't know how the American farmers can do it - most likely due to cheap Mexican labor and high degree of mechanization in their operations.
 
Munching on the strawberries, I glanced at my retirement stock portfolio and noticed that one of my positions (Linamar - an established, solid and profitable Canadian car part manufacturer supplying both the US and Canadian car plants) due to the looming car trade war dropped about 30% in value. That unfortunate development (and I suspect few more like that will be coming if somebody won't enlighten soon Trump in basic rules of economy) may cause me to reevaluate my purchasing habits and sway me towards Mexican papayas and Costa Rica bananas.  Unfortunately, such purchasing changes will affect also the American farmers and indirectly also the plumbers in the US agricultural regions.
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Alan Klein

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And that's why Trump was full of it the entire time.  They already had an agreed plan to increase spending over a period but he just kept making up his own version claiming they weren't spending as agreed by ignoring the target dates and then compared total US expenditure instead of the portion on NATO (just to compound the BS). 
Obama complained too that Germany is increasing their spending too slowly.  They aren't meeting its commitments.  The 2% by 2024 promise is voluntary.   That isn't acceptable.  Frankly, we don't trust Germany.  Why can France and broke Greece make the 2% and the richest country in Europe, Germany,  refuses?  There's no requirement that the US has to pay for all that defense.  You take it for granted that somehow we owe it to you.  Europe is rich enough to defend itself.  Stop pleading poverty or Trump should just remove a division or two.  That will get your attention.   American taxpayers are tired of subsidizing rich nations who refuse to defend themselves. 

Alan Klein

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I still fail to see how the increased military purchases from German defense contractors will help Joe. But let me explain it from my very own personal perspective.
I am in favor and active participant in the Northamerican trade. Just today, I bought two pounds of California strawberries and three pounds of Washington cherries. Excellent stuff. Sweet, juicy and cheaper than the Ontario equivalent produce. I don't know how the American farmers can do it - most likely due to cheap Mexican labor and high degree of mechanization in their operations.
 
Munching on the strawberries, I glanced at my retirement stock portfolio and noticed that one of my positions (Linamar - an established, solid and profitable Canadian car part manufacturer supplying both the US and Canadian car plants) due to the looming car trade war dropped about 30% in value. That unfortunate development (and I suspect few more like that will be coming if somebody won't enlighten soon Trump in basic rules of economy) may cause me to reevaluate my purchasing habits and sway me towards Mexican papayas and Costa Rica bananas.  Unfortunately, such purchasing changes will affect also the American farmers and indirectly also the plumbers in the US agricultural regions.

Les, Maybe you can take our illegal Mexicans to Canada to handle your strawberry crop?  That way we'll solve our illegal immigration problem and you'll have sweeter fruits to eat.  :)

Regarding higher American tariffs, Trump isn't interested in keeping them.  He's using them as an initial negotiation gambit.  If all the other countries would lower their tariffs to meet our lower ones, or all sides get rid of tariffs completely, the whole dispute would be over.  Then your investments would be back to normal as will trade.  Even better. 

Alan Klein

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And that's why Trump was full of it the entire time.  They already had an agreed plan to increase spending over a period but he just kept making up his own version claiming they weren't spending as agreed by ignoring the target dates and then compared total US expenditure instead of the portion on NATO (just to compound the BS). 

Germany admits that they will only increase their defense  spending to 1.5% of GDP by 2025, well short of the 2% they promised by 2024.  Here's an article by Reuters which Bart always assures me is the most trustworthy of sources.  Thanks Bart. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-military-nato/germany-aims-to-spend-15-percent-of-gdp-on-defense-by-2025-minister-idUSKCN1IF22U

"BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany will tell NATO in July that it expects to boost military spending to around 1.5 percent of gross domestic product by 2025, Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen told Germany’s top military brass on Monday.

That would mark a significant increase from the current percentage of 1.2 percent, but would still fall short of a NATO target calling for its members to move toward spending 2 percent of GPD on defense by 2024."

LesPalenik

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Obama complained too that Germany is increasing their spending too slowly.  They aren't meeting its commitments.  The 2% by 2024 promise is voluntary.   That isn't acceptable.  Frankly, we don't trust Germany.  Why can France and broke Greece make the 2% and the richest country in Europe, Germany,  refuses?  There's no requirement that the US has to pay for all that defense.  You take it for granted that somehow we owe it to you.  Europe is rich enough to defend itself.  Stop pleading poverty or Trump should just remove a division or two.  That will get your attention.   American taxpayers are tired of subsidizing rich nations who refuse to defend themselves.

It looks like Germany is gradually increasing their military budget. So no need to worry. Personally, I would be more concerned if their military spending goes up too quickly and over 2%. I happen to agree with Ursula von der Leyen who says it's more important how you spend that money and not how much you spend. BTW, she is also quite pretty for a defense minister. And I'm sure that she would think twice before wasting over $200 million on questionable Tomahawk missions.
 
https://www.politico.eu/article/german-defense-minister-ursula-von-der-leyen-strikes-back-on-donald-trump-nato-spending-target/

Quote
Regarding higher American tariffs, Trump isn't interested in keeping them.  He's using them as an initial negotiation gambit.  If all the other countries would lower their tariffs to meet our lower ones, or all sides get rid of tariffs completely, the whole dispute would be over.  Then your investments would be back to normal as will trade.  Even better.

Regarding the car tariffs, I think also that Trump's initial announcement is only the first salvo in the coming negotiation, but sometimes these things can turn out drastically different than originally intended, so hopefully, they will all smarten up and get rid quickly of all car tarrifs. I drive an old but trusty Dodge van. But it is getting also rusty, so if their new prices will increase, I might look at a Japanese or Korean replacement instead. Coincidentally, last time I visited my friends in USA, their recommendations were Nissan Altima and Hyundai Sante Fe.
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Alan Klein

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It looks like Germany is gradually increasing their military budget. So no need to worry. Personally, I would be more concerned if their military spending goes up too quickly and over 2%. I happen to agree with Ursula von der Leyen who says it's more important how you spend that money and not how much you spend. BTW, she is also quite pretty for a defense minister. And I'm sure that she would think twice before wasting over $200 million on questionable Tomahawk missions.
 
https://www.politico.eu/article/german-defense-minister-ursula-von-der-leyen-strikes-back-on-donald-trump-nato-spending-target/

Regarding the car tariffs, I think also that Trump's initial announcement is only the first salvo in the coming negotiation, but sometimes these things can turn out drastically different than originally intended, so hopefully, they will all smarten up and get rid quickly of all car tarrifs. I drive an old but trusty Dodge van. But it is getting also rusty, so if their new prices will increase, I might look at a Japanese or Korean replacement instead. Coincidentally, last time I visited my friends in USA, their recommendations were Nissan Altima and Hyundai Sante Fe.

Les, Please read my last post where that pretty lady said Germany would only meet 1.5% by 2025.  You're just a patsy when it comes to a pretty face.  :)

Regarding cars, my wife and I drive Japanese Acuras.  I'm sorry to say I haven't bought or leased an American car in years. 

LesPalenik

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Les, Please read my last post where that pretty lady said Germany would only meet 1.5% by 2025.  You're just a patsy when it comes to a pretty face.  :)

Regarding cars, my wife and I drive Japanese Acuras.  I'm sorry to say I haven't bought or leased an American car in years.

Alan, I'm not that shallow. But before the next summit I'd like to state my preference to discuss Leopard tanks with Ursula rather than the car tariffs with Angela.
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jeremyrh

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What would get your attention is Russian tanks rolling over Germany and Russian missiles a whole lot closer to home. Defending Europe is not a charity.
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LesPalenik

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What would get your attention is Russian tanks rolling over Germany and Russian missiles a whole lot closer to home. Defending Europe is not a charity.

As a matter of fact, I witnessed Russian tanks rolling into the former Czechoslovakia in the summer of 1968. Nobody lifted a finger at that time.
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jeremyrh

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As a matter of fact, I witnessed Russian tanks rolling into the former Czechoslovakia in the summer of 1968. Nobody lifted a finger at that time.

Quite. So if Trump collapses NATO we can anticipate that piece of history to be repeated.
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BernardLanguillier

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As if pleasing the defense lobby had had nothing to do with all this...

Mr. Trump is just negotiating with Lockeed Martin.

Cheers,
Bernard

LesPalenik

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Quite. So if Trump collapses NATO we can anticipate that piece of history to be repeated.

You may be right, there are some parallels between one clown and liar with a loud mouth from late thirties and another lying clown with a loud mouth from the recent times.   Both sported ridiculous hair cuts, although one in black and the other in orange blond.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Tribalism.
Quite right.  there have been several fine books published withing the last seven or so years on this phenomenon.  Perhaps the best one is "Democracy for Realists: Why Elections Do Not Produce Responsive Government" by Achen and Bartels and that is their conclusion.  The discussion of the influence of shark attacks in New Jersey during 1915-16 and how this might have influenced the election in 1916 is most interesting.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Regarding cars, my wife and I drive Japanese Acuras.  I'm sorry to say I haven't bought or leased an American car in years.
Perhaps you are part of the problem that won't MAGA.
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Alan Goldhammer

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You may be right, there are some parallels between one clown and liar with a loud mouth from late thirties and another lying clown with a loud mouth from the recent times.   Both sported ridiculous hair cuts, although one in black and the other in orange blond.
Be very careful!  I tried to make this analogy on another thread and caused it to be locked and also received a reprimand from our moderator.  I do agree with your statement!!!
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Robert Roaldi

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Les, Maybe you can take our illegal Mexicans to Canada to handle your strawberry crop?  That way we'll solve our illegal immigration problem and you'll have sweeter fruits to eat.  :)

Regarding higher American tariffs, Trump isn't interested in keeping them.  He's using them as an initial negotiation gambit.  If all the other countries would lower their tariffs to meet our lower ones, or all sides get rid of tariffs completely, the whole dispute would be over.  Then your investments would be back to normal as will trade.  Even better.

The fruit picking areas all over Canada have been employing Mexican migrant (and elsewhere) workers for years. There is a decades-long well-established temporary worker program with infrastructure (housing, chartered flights, etc.) put in place to deal with it. Nothing new there.

As for the health of the current American economy, good, everyone hopes it continues. But business investment has always occurred in cycles, it's too soon to attribute this growth spurt to anything in particular. It may have been aided by the tax cuts, but it's hard to believe that they would have worked their way through already and that's even more true of tariffs. In the case of tariffs, it's a double-edged sword, lots or American businesses will be hurt by higher priced imports. It's complicated and it is why countries spend years ironing out the details of trade agreements. What matters more is that over the long term, since about the 1980s, middle-class income has stagnated. This is not changing. The swings in the economy occur against that constant backdrop.

I disagree with one poster above about imported strawberries. Local ones are far better and always have been. With strawberries, picking them at the right time is what matters. Niagara strawberries were always better and cheaper than the imported American ones. Even here in Ottawa, local farms produce fantastic fruit and the local grocery stores preferentially stock local berries because they are better and cheaper. There are strawberry plants now that give multiple crops up until about September, so I don't even have to rush to stuff myself in June. West coast American cherries, however, are just fantastic.
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Robert

Robert Roaldi

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Obama complained too that Germany is increasing their spending too slowly.  They aren't meeting its commitments.  The 2% by 2024 promise is voluntary.   That isn't acceptable.  Frankly, we don't trust Germany.  Why can France and broke Greece make the 2% and the richest country in Europe, Germany,  refuses?  There's no requirement that the US has to pay for all that defense.  You take it for granted that somehow we owe it to you.  Europe is rich enough to defend itself.  Stop pleading poverty or Trump should just remove a division or two.  That will get your attention.   American taxpayers are tired of subsidizing rich nations who refuse to defend themselves.

Careful what you wish for. There are 700+ American military bases in over 125 countries. You didn't do that because other countries asked you to (although I'm sure some did), you did it because it suited your interests.

So now you want other countries to take up the slack. I understand, so do I. In one specific case, I find it repulsive that there isn't a constant Canadian naval military presence in the Arctic. However, once all those allies increase their defence spending, they will then have their own independent military power. You seem to assume that they will all continue to adhere to American policy. Some might, some might not. If they start to view their American partner as unstable and unreliable (thanks to Mr. T, who may just be a temporary aberration of course), some may start to view things differently. If you want to maintain alliances with people with whom you have common interests, it's best not to treat them like enemies.
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Robert

RSL

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Be very careful!  I tried to make this analogy on another thread and caused it to be locked and also received a reprimand from our moderator.  I do agree with your statement!!!

Maybe you ought to study some history, Alan, before you agree with that statement.
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Alan Klein

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What would get your attention is Russian tanks rolling over Germany and Russian missiles a whole lot closer to home. Defending Europe is not a charity.
You're right .  It isn't charity.  So why isn't Germany, the richest nation in Europe, and the other 23 slackers, meeting their defense requirements and promises?  It seems they'd rather let American taxpayers pay for their defense.  Where's their pride?  Don't they care enough about their own countries they're willing to defend them instead of depending on America?  This isn't the Cold War any longer.  The Soviet Union is no more and Eastern Europe is free.  It's not 1948 when Europe was devastated and needed rebuilding.  Today it can easily afford defense expenditures.  But they grown too conditioned to let America carry the load.  They figure let's just have the stupid Americans to keep paying our military bills.  Europe's GNP is as large as America's. 
https://www.google.com/search?q=nato+countries+defense+expenditures&num=20&rlz=1T4GGHP_enUS577US577&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHy-7y4o_cAhWJr1kKHcjgCOcQ_AUICygC&biw=1350&bih=719#imgrc=um00MSXPmIwyHM:&spf=1531062290647

Yet except for 4 countries, are not meeting their 2% payments.
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fqph.fs.quoracdn.net%2Fmain-qimg-b5364470b65c285ca26f1ff052124660-c&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.quora.com%2FHow-does-the-U-S-military-budget-compare-to-those-of-other-countries&docid=Ji4nTN1L0PcN3M&tbnid=6955ZdcW3OCYTM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwj4_Yne5I_cAhWjxVkKHfYOAJkQMwhoKCAwIA..i&w=602&h=413&bih=719&biw=1350&q=nato%20countries%20defense%20expenditures&ved=0ahUKEwj4_Yne5I_cAhWjxVkKHfYOAJkQMwhoKCAwIA&iact=mrc&uact=8

America can't afford all these military costs like we use too.  Once we were the largest creditor nation in the world.  Today we're the largest debtor nation in the world.  The fact is America will have $1 trillion deficit this year.  We're $21 trillion in debt.  Our trade deficit will be around $800 billion this year.  (Well trade is another discussion).  We should just pull out a division or two.  That will wake Europe up.   

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