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Author Topic: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast  (Read 3098 times)

Frans Waterlander

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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2018, 07:50:03 PM »

A - it would very likely cause a shift, but it depends on what colour you were printing and which colour was reduced.

B - I went through a number of situations in my previous reply.  Such a reduction would be due to either separation or ink delivery issues, but of which are detectable through nozzle check analysis as I've explained.

So you believe that you would be able to see a reduction of 10-30% by studying the nozzle check print-out? I don't think so, especially if the reduction is rather stable, as it seems to be the case with my printer.
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Farmer

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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2018, 08:03:31 PM »

So you believe that you would be able to see a reduction of 10-30% by studying the nozzle check print-out? I don't think so, especially if the reduction is rather stable, as it seems to be the case with my printer.

I have nearly 15 years' experience with this - I can spot it, particularly compared to a known good sample.  I think you could, too, with guidance as to what to look for - I think anyone can.

BTW, here's a nozzle check showing pigment separation (nothing wrong with the head) attached.
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Phil Brown

Frans Waterlander

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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2018, 08:33:14 PM »

I have nearly 15 years' experience with this - I can spot it, particularly compared to a known good sample.  I think you could, too, with guidance as to what to look for - I think anyone can.

BTW, here's a nozzle check showing pigment separation (nothing wrong with the head) attached.

I find it hard to believe that you or anyone else can notice a 10-30% more or less stable reduction in ink output by looking at the extremely thin, 1 nozzle wide lines of the nozzle check print. Can I prove it? I could if I could control the ink output, which I can't.

Having eliminated every other cause that I and others have thought of, it just may be that the ink monitor isn't working as intended in each and every possible scenario.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 08:36:28 PM by Frans Waterlander »
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digitaldog

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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2018, 09:37:04 PM »

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Andrew Rodney
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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2018, 09:38:26 PM »

The "ink monitor" doesn't monitor live ink levels, as I explained.

And, you can't prove I can't do as I've said because I do it regularly.  Look, take the advice or leave it, no hard feelings and I really don't mind - it's all good.
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Phil Brown

Frans Waterlander

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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2018, 12:50:29 AM »

No, you can't.

How about answering my questions?
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Farmer

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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2018, 03:12:43 AM »

I've answered them, Frans.  If Andrew chooses to also do so, that's up to him, but the issues have been discussed and explained.  You don't like those explanations and that's fine - doesn't bother me - I can't provide a definitive answer because you haven't provided enough details or samples to examine.  I hope the problem is resolved one way or another, but in the meantime, let it be, and consider that being antagonistic toward people trying to provide you with considerable experience and knowledge is perhaps not the most effective approach.
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Phil Brown

digitaldog

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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2018, 09:02:08 AM »

I've answered them, Frans.  If Andrew chooses to also do so, that's up to him, but the issues have been discussed and explained.  You don't like those explanations and that's fine - doesn't bother me - I can't provide a definitive answer because you haven't provided enough details or samples to examine.  I hope the problem is resolved one way or another, but in the meantime, let it be, and consider that being antagonistic toward people trying to provide you with considerable experience and knowledge is perhaps not the most effective approach.
He’s not here for answers, only for attention. I will not feed the troll. See the Photonet links paper trails of other trolling examples should anyone believe Frans is here for problem solving; he isn’t! He’s made up his minds before posting again.
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Andrew Rodney
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2018, 01:18:19 PM »

I've answered them, Frans.  If Andrew chooses to also do so, that's up to him, but the issues have been discussed and explained.  You don't like those explanations and that's fine - doesn't bother me - I can't provide a definitive answer because you haven't provided enough details or samples to examine.  I hope the problem is resolved one way or another, but in the meantime, let it be, and consider that being antagonistic toward people trying to provide you with considerable experience and knowledge is perhaps not the most effective approach.

Phil, It's not a question of not liking your explanations. Your statement that you can see a 10-30% ink reduction in a nozzle check seems impossible to me. I'd hoped that I could challenge you on that without being accused of being antagonistic. If we can't be honest with each other and express our opinions on this forum, then we are heading the way of the Popular Photography and Shutterbug forums.
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digitaldog

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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2018, 01:38:37 PM »

Phil, It's not a question of not liking your explanations. Your statement that you can see a 10-30% ink reduction in a nozzle check seems impossible to me.
Its an answer YOU don’t like! What seems impossible to you is not based on ANY proof of concept and simply your religious belief.
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Andrew Rodney
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Doug Gray

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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2018, 01:39:45 PM »

When will your cyan inks arrive?
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digitaldog

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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2018, 01:47:00 PM »

When will your cyan inks arrive?
Can't be soon enough!
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Andrew Rodney
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2018, 03:38:36 PM »

When will your cyan inks arrive?

FedEx says tomorrow.
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digitaldog

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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2018, 03:39:27 PM »

FedEx says tomorrow.
Do you believe them;D
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Andrew Rodney
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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2018, 06:08:08 PM »

Phil, It's not a question of not liking your explanations. Your statement that you can see a 10-30% ink reduction in a nozzle check seems impossible to me. I'd hoped that I could challenge you on that without being accused of being antagonistic. If we can't be honest with each other and express our opinions on this forum, then we are heading the way of the Popular Photography and Shutterbug forums.

You haven't provided any data for me to actually analyse, so all you have is your belief versus my 15 years' experience doing it.  I explained how you read them, I even posted an example of a very unusual pattern and what it represented.  So at this point, you simply don't believe because you think you can't do it.  Humans can generally pick a delta E of 3 or more in colour variance.  A 10-30% variation is very significant and there would be tell-tale signs in the nozzle check, particularly compared to a good sample.  Don't believe me - it's fine.  Like I said, no hard feelings, but if that's how you feel then just let it go.  Andrew has probably twice the experience (or close to it) that I have - between us, we're far from novices.  Of course that doesn't make us infallible, but all you've offered as a counter to our commentary is that you don't believe it.  Sorry, that's very much antagonistic and far from useful.
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Phil Brown

digitaldog

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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2018, 06:48:38 PM »

You haven't provided any data for me to actually analyse, so all you have is your belief versus my 15 years' experience doing it.  I explained how you read them, I even posted an example of a very unusual pattern and what it represented.  So at this point, you simply don't believe because you think you can't do it.  Humans can generally pick a delta E of 3 or more in colour variance.  A 10-30% variation is very significant and there would be tell-tale signs in the nozzle check, particularly compared to a good sample.  Don't believe me - it's fine.  Like I said, no hard feelings, but if that's how you feel then just let it go.  Andrew has probably twice the experience (or close to it) that I have - between us, we're far from novices.  Of course that doesn't make us infallible, but all you've offered as a counter to our commentary is that you don't believe it.  Sorry, that's very much antagonistic and far from useful.
Fran's isn't interested in the correct answer. He's only interested in the answer that agrees with his pre-defined answer which he provided here and kept going. This is a tactic of his I've seen now four times over the years in this and the PhotoNet forums**. He'll ask a question about some 'problem' then immediately tell us the answer and if we don't agree (and most often do not as his answer has no basis in fact or can be proven), he goes on and on telling us we're all wrong. If every Epson print engineer told him he was wrong, he'd continue to argue with them. Because this IS his agenda in posting here. He will argue with an author on color management about color management (something he has proven in the past he doesn't understand well) because he is an author of a book on politics and when all you know is a hammer (political arguments), everything looks like a nail. His agenda is to argue and gather attention hence, don't feed the trolls

He'll perhaps get his new cartridge and perhaps the issue will go away and he'll post his confirmation seen in post #4 as being correct without using a lick of the scientific medhtodgy to conform his confirmation bias. Could be a defective ink cartridge or one that simply failed, or one that needed shaking or a hardware issue, or air bubble in the ink line, or USER ERROR, etc.
** The paper trail; don't read unless you really need proof of agenda, it's a long and painful set of his floundering:

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/three-different-color-calculators-cant-be-wrong-can-they.483168/
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/nec-pa242w-with-spectraview-problems.501605/
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/flicker-eyestrain-or-headache-when-using-a-monitor-with-led-backlighting.484239/
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/do-solux-bulbs-meet-color-temp-specs.482331/#post-5072451
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 06:51:58 PM by andrewrodney »
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Andrew Rodney
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2018, 09:09:41 PM »

You haven't provided any data for me to actually analyse, so all you have is your belief versus my 15 years' experience doing it.  I explained how you read them, I even posted an example of a very unusual pattern and what it represented.  So at this point, you simply don't believe because you think you can't do it.  Humans can generally pick a delta E of 3 or more in colour variance.  A 10-30% variation is very significant and there would be tell-tale signs in the nozzle check, particularly compared to a good sample.  Don't believe me - it's fine.  Like I said, no hard feelings, but if that's how you feel then just let it go.  Andrew has probably twice the experience (or close to it) that I have - between us, we're far from novices.  Of course that doesn't make us infallible, but all you've offered as a counter to our commentary is that you don't believe it.  Sorry, that's very much antagonistic and far from useful.

I don't have data for you to analyze, not before and after nozzle check prints; only after and they are flawless without tell-tale signs. And yes, I don't think I can look at nozzle check print lines and see that the ink amount is 10% less than "normal".  "Normal" being what? My memory of how it looked in the past? Highly unreliable and doomed to fail. Compare it to a previous nozzle check? I don't save my nozzle check prints. Even if I had, I don't think I would be able to put them side by side and detect a 10% difference in ink. You think you can? I would love to see you demonstrate that. How about 20 or 30%? I'm skeptical. I have a hunch, not more than that, that the magenta color cast in my ABW prints is caused by far less than 10% reduction in cyan ink delivery. ABW prints appear to be very sensitive to ink imbalances.
Also, we are not talking about color variations, but intensity variations of the same color and the human eye isn't that sensitive to it, even in side-by-side cases. For instance, LED chips used in numeric displays are selected to vary no more than 50% in intensity and the result is you can't tell the difference between the various segments or dots within the display. That's a 50% difference in intensity!
By the way, my background is in R&D, quality/reliability engineering and failure analysis in the electronics industry. I have used inkjet printers for over 30 years and I spent the last 10 of my 27 year career at Hewlett-Packard at their inkjet printer division in Vancouver, Washington.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 09:17:04 PM by Frans Waterlander »
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2018, 09:11:27 PM »

Fran's isn't interested in the correct answer. He's only interested in the answer that agrees with his pre-defined answer which he provided here and kept going. This is a tactic of his I've seen now four times over the years in this and the PhotoNet forums**. He'll ask a question about some 'problem' then immediately tell us the answer and if we don't agree (and most often do not as his answer has no basis in fact or can be proven), he goes on and on telling us we're all wrong. If every Epson print engineer told him he was wrong, he'd continue to argue with them. Because this IS his agenda in posting here. He will argue with an author on color management about color management (something he has proven in the past he doesn't understand well) because he is an author of a book on politics and when all you know is a hammer (political arguments), everything looks like a nail. His agenda is to argue and gather attention hence, don't feed the trolls

He'll perhaps get his new cartridge and perhaps the issue will go away and he'll post his confirmation seen in post #4 as being correct without using a lick of the scientific medhtodgy to conform his confirmation bias. Could be a defective ink cartridge or one that simply failed, or one that needed shaking or a hardware issue, or air bubble in the ink line, or USER ERROR, etc.
** The paper trail; don't read unless you really need proof of agenda, it's a long and painful set of his floundering:

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/three-different-color-calculators-cant-be-wrong-can-they.483168/
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/nec-pa242w-with-spectraview-problems.501605/
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/flicker-eyestrain-or-headache-when-using-a-monitor-with-led-backlighting.484239/
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/do-solux-bulbs-meet-color-temp-specs.482331/#post-5072451

I love you too, Andrew.
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digitaldog

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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2018, 09:23:44 PM »

I love you too, Andrew.
It is facts and proof you don’t love which is preferable!
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Andrew Rodney
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digitaldog

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Re: Epson R2880 suddenly prints with reddish color cast
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2018, 09:34:20 PM »

I don't have data for you to analyze, not before and after nozzle check prints; only after and they are flawless without tell-tale signs.
But you've made up your mind what the problem is, despite your lack of data!
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And yes, I don't think I can look at nozzle check print lines and see that the ink amount is 10% less than "normal".
But despite this admission, you've made up your mind what the problem is!
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"Normal" being what? My memory of how it looked in the past?

Had you considered, as many of the people who've attempted to aid you have, kept a normally reported (and then print) nozzle check, you would know. But despite this admission, you've made up your mind what the problem is!
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I don't save my nozzle check prints.
Maybe you'll consider that in the future.
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Even if I had, I don't think I would be able to put them side by side and detect a 10% difference in ink.
You're excellent at assumptions. After admitting what you don't know or what data you didn't keep! Sloppy but consistent.
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You think you can?
He answered the question you will not accept but some of us will.
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I would love to see you demonstrate that. How about 20 or 30%? I'm skeptical.
Yes, you are; predetermined concepts as I've outlined. Here in this thread, and the other's provided. The paper trail is there.
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I have a hunch,....
Haven't you assumed enough here? Yes! Less hunches, more actual data. Easier for you to guess, assume and make hunches.
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Also, we are not talking about color variations, but intensity variations of the same color and the human eye isn't that sensitive to it, even in side-by-side cases.
Don't go down a a greater path you know so little about; color appearance, color management.
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By the way, my background is in R&D, quality/reliability engineering and failure analysis in the electronics industry.
Even if true (difficult to believe), not designing Epson printers, accepting facts or supplying any of your own.
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I have used inkjet printers for over 30 years and I spent the last 10 of my 27 year career at Hewlett-Packard at their inkjet printer division in Vancouver, Washington.
I will assume (and I rarely do), the restrooms at that division were pretty clean thanks to your work there.  :o  Amazingly, you don't own an HP ink jet. Not amazingly, you don't know much about the Epson printer you own. By your own admissions here!
All that experience at HP with ink jets, you're here and over at PhotoNet asking for advise then not taking any. More like seeking attention.


« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 09:41:47 PM by andrewrodney »
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Andrew Rodney
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