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Author Topic: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018  (Read 79011 times)

sbay

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #700 on: August 25, 2018, 11:54:27 am »

Did Nikon say anything about aps-c mirrorless? Either bodies or lenses?

davidgp

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #701 on: August 25, 2018, 11:55:41 am »

At the end it is extremely simple, the key question is whether the ability (or not) of the Z7/Z6 to help create better images overweights its disadvantages, the only obvious one to me as of now is the lack of double memory slots.

The answer will differ for each of us.

The more I read about the camera, the more I feel that it might for me, but that's just my context.

Cheers,
Bernard

I don't see that big difference between Sony and Nikon offerings... each one has their strong and weak points vs the other... and if I was you Bernad, I would go for the Z system... after all, you must have a good collection of F lenses.

davidgp

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #702 on: August 25, 2018, 11:56:52 am »

Did Nikon say anything about aps-c mirrorless? Either bodies or lenses?

As far as I saw in the different news webpages, I will say no... but I just watched the ones with people with real cameras and no the ones with people just going over the spec sheet, so maybe I missed something.

jeremyrh

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #703 on: August 25, 2018, 12:11:21 pm »


All of the arguments against these offerings are based on the presumption (as stated) that the consumer makes an entirely logic decision void of emotion with complete information about past, present, and future, and we all know they never, ever do.

This.

There's spec sheets and road maps and there's being in a camera store and holding something in your hand.
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BJL

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #704 on: August 25, 2018, 12:57:10 pm »

A more modern version of HCB's 50mm lens is the fact (reference forgotten; sorry) that a great majority of all photographs are in the FOV range from about 24mm to 70mm (35mm equiv.) ó and this was data compiled in the late film era, so not skewed by phone-photography. So I expect that a lot of potential 36x34mm format mirrorless cameras buyers will be comfortable doing most or all of their Z photography with one or two of the initial native lenses, and maybe handling the occasional more extreme cases with adaptor-mounted F-mount lenses and/or trusting the roadmap to fill their lens wish-lists.

Though personally I would have liked a "middle-weight" telephoto zoom now or coming soon, like 70-200/4 or 70-300/5.6; but maybe my tastes for the "narrow view" (telephoto and macro) without excessive bulk are better served by a middle-sized format like MFT or APS-C.
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Rob C

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #705 on: August 25, 2018, 02:15:53 pm »

Perhaps Nikon would have made a smarter decision if they'd introduced a digital take on their rangefinder S3.

Why? Well, think Leica. It makes reflex-style bodies and all that, but the flagship, the thing over which people drool, myself inculded, is the current M-style of body. Nikon could have turned a digi rangefinder into a direct competitor in the luxury market. And don't knock that aspect: it makes money, and money is the bottom line, even for most photographers - if only in ability to spend it or to make it.

Perhaps next year, once they have the mirrorless system perfected.

Either way, I wish 'em luck!

Rob

Chris Kern

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #706 on: August 25, 2018, 03:54:47 pm »

I will be quite surprised if after a year Nikon releases another set of cameras. If I was a Z user I will prefer them to concentrate in that aggressive lens roadmap...

That, and iteratively refining the Z cameras' firmware.  Nikon would be well-advised to take a cue from Fuji in that regard.  So would every other manufacturer, for that matter.  Mirrorless camera bodies, especially, are essentially machine-control software systemsóand thus susceptible to selective improvement over time.  As well, of course, as the drivers of the lens sales that produce both profits and customer lock-in.

hexx

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #707 on: August 25, 2018, 03:55:13 pm »

From people who have actually used and tested it

  • Z7 only manages 9fps with a battery grip. Without the grip, it slows to 5.5fps. The Z6 is slowed by a similar amount.
  • Z7 only has a 2.5 second buffer when shooting 12-bit compressed RAW (obviously less when shooting 14 bit, and more when shooting JPEG). No mention as to whether this is when shooting with or without a grip.


  • Slow buffer clearance - compared with the original-series A7/A7r (not that the A7r3/A9 are particularly fast either, unless you're using a single UHS-II card - Sony needs to fix this in the next generation and use UHS-II for both slots)
  • Half the rated battery life compared with the A7r3. But we knew this one already.
  • No exposure compensation dial. Far less needed on mirrorless, since you have a real-time through-the-lens exposure simulation, but it might take some getting used to. Certainly, I've never touched the dial on the Sony, but I never use Tv or Av modes either - mirrorless makes manual exposure very easy.

If true, some of these are huge deal-breakers. 9fps is fine for action. 5.5fps puts in a completely different, slower class. The small buffer and slow clearance would also make it largely a non-action camera.

Sorry but the source (as linked - sonyalpharumors) is wrong and some of those claims have been pointed as false in the comments section.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 04:19:19 pm by hexx »
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Telecaster

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #708 on: August 25, 2018, 04:37:02 pm »

I'm bemused, though not surprised, that the lack of "it just works" network connectivity in all these camera systems gets so little attention in threads like this. After all, we're film-era folks who've (mostly) embraced new photo techÖso stuff we consider ancillary doesn't factor much into our gear preferences. But to younger folks seamless wifi isn't ancillary, it's central and flat-out expected. Not even the disruptive upstart, Sony, seems to have a freakin' clue about the demographic brick wall they'll soon splat into if they don't get with it.

-Dave-
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 04:40:06 pm by Telecaster »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #709 on: August 25, 2018, 04:52:53 pm »

Who knows, Nikon may have gotten Snapbridge to work after 3 or 4 iterations? :D

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #710 on: August 25, 2018, 05:04:07 pm »

I don't see that big difference between Sony and Nikon offerings... each one has their strong and weak points vs the other... and if I was you Bernad, I would go for the Z system... after all, you must have a good collection of F lenses.

Yes, I do.

But I am open to all options, including selling the whole set of F lenses and going Sony or Canon (not at the moment obviously).

But yes, the easiest route would be adding a Z7 and checking how well it is doing for my typical shooting.

I have a huge amount of admiration for the Sony a7/a9 and for Sony as a company and innovation force. But I have to admit that the Z mount appears to have better optical potential and thatís what appealing to me. I also believe that many who have not used recent glass from Nikon donít realize the progress they have made and what it means for Z lenses.

I just wish Nikon had made that choice easier by proposing a 2 slot body from the onset.

But it will probably not be a deal breaker in the end.

I can see myself using it in 3 ways:
- for easily reshootable occasions or non critical ones -> I just hope my XQD card works
- for more critical opportunities-> implement a regular card back up strategy using my surface pro
- for canít fail at any price -> continue to use my D850/D5

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 05:17:46 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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BJL

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #711 on: August 25, 2018, 07:23:18 pm »

I donít when they will be released, but I think we will get:
- z8 which is a a9mk II competitor high speed camera
- z9 which is a a9r competitor with 60+ megapixel
I have a similar vision but not much sense of when: going by names, prices at release, and features, it seems that the Z6 and Z7 are intended to cover most of the range covered by the D610, D750 and D850, while not touching the D5, so my guess:
- A D5 counterpart in time for the 2020 Olympics ó if Nikon can get the AF good enough, and
- A higher resolution "Z8" when a next generation higher resolution sensor is available ó along with the same sensor in a D850 successor, if there is still demand for such a thing!. No rush on that, I think, and I have no idea when it would come.

Aside: Talk of a single "flagship" camera is simplistic, along with the "pro" vs "amateur" distinction; Nikon has two "top" SLRs in different categories (as does Canon).
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #712 on: August 25, 2018, 07:33:18 pm »

Yes, indeed.

Cheers,
Bernard

Dan Wells

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #713 on: August 25, 2018, 07:33:40 pm »

A couple of points that I'm not sure have been mentioned yet... The z7 could be pretty special for my application (I'm a landscape photographer who often hikes in a long way - I hiked 450 miles on the Pacific Crest Trail photographing last year.

1.) This is claimed to have D850 level weather sealing... No Sony is anywhere near that (Olympus is there or beyond - the E-M1 mk II may even be D5 level, and some of the newer Fujis are close to a D850). We'll have to see if that's real, but if it is, it's got a VERY interesting combination (to landscape photographers) of a big-MP sensor and weather sealing.

Why not use a D850? This thing and the 24-70 f4 are half the weight of a D850 with the 24-70 f2.8 (yes, the SLR lens is faster, but they don't have a lighter alternative with very high image quality - again, we'll have to see if the 24-70 f4 has the claimed IQ). If the claims on both (lens - I'm sure the sensor's terrific) IQ and weather sealing are true, the z7 is unique as a hikeable landscape camera.

2.) Unlike any other mirrorless camera, the z6 and z7 take tilt-shift lenses without an unsupported third-party adapter. Yes, it's three pieces, but it's a camera by Nikon, attached to an adapter made for the camera by Nikon, attached to a lens by Nikon... That seems a lot less fishy than Sony camera to Metabones (who the heck is Metabones) adapter to Canon lens. Sure,  Sony or Fuji could release a first-party tilt-shift lens, but nobody has yet, and I haven't seen one on anybody's public roadmap.

3.) I don't love the single card slot, but XQD cards are supposed to be a lot more reliable than SD... What if they've got the chances of a card failure down to 1 in 200,000 images? The shutter fails once in 200,000 images. If you can't take a 1 in 200,000 chance of failure (and there are some jobs where you can't), use two cameras, because there are plenty of mechanical parts in any camera with failure rates in that range. SD cards are closer to 1 failure in 20,000 images, so dual slots are needed. How's the error checking on XQD? Will it immediately report a card error?

4.) What's up with that battery life? I'm inclined to think it's a testing quirk or a flaw with the pre-production models. The few people who've played with one suggest it's a testing quirk - they're seeing much better life.  If it's not, the camera is about twice as power hungry as it's competitors - Fujis get about 300-350 shots out of the little NP-W126 batteries (with about half the power of an EN-EL15), and Sonys get in the high 200s from their little battery (like the Fuji one), and I've heard close to 600 from the EN-EL15 size battery.

Assuming the battery life works out and the sealing and IQ are as promised, this could be a pretty ideal hiking camera - no heavier than hiking with a Fuji, but twice the pixels, ISO 64, an extra stop or two of DR. My long hike lenses would be the 24-70 and 14-30 f4 pair. When closer to the car, it has the versatility of T/S lenses (and just about anything else - if nobody's put a F mount on it, nobody's made the lens...).

Dan

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #714 on: August 25, 2018, 07:53:45 pm »

Dan,

Indeed. I think the following would also be nice for landscape:
- IBIS for daytime handheld shooting
- Lighter tripod compatibility
- WB preview in EVF which can help get a useful reference for later raw based tuning
- association with 300mm PF for great distant landscape photography
- smaller body will give less obstructed access to T/S lens controls

Cheers,
Bernard

D Fuller

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #715 on: August 25, 2018, 11:04:42 pm »


...

4.) What's up with that battery life? I'm inclined to think it's a testing quirk or a flaw with the pre-production models. The few people who've played with one suggest it's a testing quirk - they're seeing much better life.  If it's not, the camera is about twice as power hungry as it's competitors - Fujis get about 300-350 shots out of the little NP-W126 batteries (with about half the power of an EN-EL15), and Sonys get in the high 200s from their little battery (like the Fuji one), and I've heard close to 600 from the EN-EL15 size battery.
...

Dan

The battery life ďissueĒ seems to be a tempest in a teapot. Or more accurately, a result of the unfortunate use of CIPA as a battery life standard.

Real-world reports by people who have had hands on the cameras for days, not minutes, report 1500-2000 shots, and an entire day of shooting without exhausting a single battery. Additionally, the movie recording time on Nikonís spec sheet has been corrected to read 85 minutes rather than the 10-15 minutes it originally listed.

I donít understand why the CIPA numbers are so unreliable, but it does appear that they are.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #716 on: August 25, 2018, 11:48:54 pm »

My guess is that real world usage probably falls in between, I am betting on 600~800 shot per battery charge, which is totally fine.

Cheers,
Bernard

shadowblade

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #717 on: August 26, 2018, 01:02:55 am »

Shadow do you have any evidence that the amateur landscape shooters are where Sony took market share from Canon or that they took market share from canon at all? Do you really think that with IBiS and great high ISO performance and with increasingly good AF and such things as eye focus that Sony set out to and accomplished the task of taking market share from canon in the landscape segment? Also where does your theory of needing fast glass fit in with landscape photography?

I don't think anyone has actual figures. But the tone on various forums - DPReview, POTN, here and elsewhere - changed significantly between 2012-2014, as did the makeup of full-frame cameras I've seen in the hands of shooters on landscape photography tours and at prominent landscape shooting locations all over the world (I'm using full-frame as a marker to indicate more serious photographers, since many not-so-serious photographers and tourists have a low-end Canon or Nikon crop or an Olympus M43 body).

Prior to 2012, almost everyone used the 5D2 - it was everywhere, and probably still remains the most commercially successful full-frame digital camera released. But a number of comparisons soon emerged between the 5D2 and the early Exmor sensors used in the A900 and D3x, showing much better shadow detail recovery in the Exmor sensors and a disturbing tartan pattern noise in the 5D2's shadows. This did not translate into success for the A900 or D3x - the A900 had a far poorer lens lineup (among other issues), while the D3x was double the weight and triple the price and was generally far more limited when not shooting landscapes or studio shots at base ISO. There was low-level grumbling, but this was generally far outweighed about the grumbling about the AF and other handling features vs the D700 - most talk was about a potential '3D', with the 5D2 sensor and compact body but 1D-type AF (this was later realised in the 5D3). When Nikon released the D800/D800e in 2012 and Canon was unable to maintain the lead in either resolution or overall image quality, the grumbling intensified, but most people still stayed with the 5D2 (without upgrading to the 5D3), since they'd be unable to use their Canon lenses on the D800. This changed with the A7r, helped by Sony's inclusion of a free Metabones adapter with every A7-series body sold. At that time, there were a huge number of 5D2 and 5D3 bodies on sale in the buy & sell boards of every forum (including here). And A7rs started showing up everywhere landscape photographers congregated (Gorak Shep, Namche Bazaar, Patagonia's W-circuit, Erta Ale, among various places I first noticed the trend) - almost universally attached to red-ringed Canon L-series lenses. And the tone on forums changed, too - on landscape sub-forums, Canon appeared to be generally out of favour, with Nikon and Sony being the two main choices, and remains so to this day.

Sony may not have intended to specifically pry landscape shooters away from Canon (although the inclusion of a Metabones adapter with the first two generations of A7-series cameras clearly intended an intention to pry photographers away from other systems - and, with the AF performance of adapted lenses, and AF performance of early-generation A7-series bodies in general, it was never going to be the action photographers they would pry away). But, intended or not, that's what they ended up doing. And it helped them a lot - without the influx of Canon shooters, uptake of E-mount would probably have been much slower, restricted largely to beginners and those looking for a 'compact solution' at first, and the evolution of the mount since then (assuming it wasn't stillborn entirely) would probably have taken a completely different track, focusing on compact, portable lenses rather than the fast, pro-grade f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes we're now getting. It's probably not coincidental that two of the biggest camera stores around here sold almost twice as many A7r bodies as A7 bodies, despite the A7r being more expensive and more specialised. These days, whenever I go to shooting spots popular with landscape photographers (New Zealand most recently, Pakistan and Japan coming up), I see an almost-even mix of Canon, Nikon and Sony among full-frame shooters. Many of the Sonys are now attached to native E-mount lenses, but there are still a large number attached to Canon lenses. Very few of them are attached to Nikon lenses, though, likely due to suitable adapters for Nikon lenses being late to arrive, but also because Nikon shooters have had no particular reason to switch, since Nikon bodies already provided everything they needed.

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Anyway this is about Nikon. I have no idea what their plan is and nor do you. I think but dont know that they are planning a migration path for existing Nikon users. This offering does that imho. Sony needed to break into the market. Nikon need to retain existing Nikon clients. That is working I believe and my evidence for that is Bernard and several friends with Nikonís who are keen to give mirrorless a try. Two of them have 850s and the mirrorless gives them a more compact option that can be used with existing lenses should they wish to do so.

Obviously Nikon needs to try to retain market share. But intention is not the same as results, and perception is not the same as reality. And it's far too early to say that 'it's working'. There have been negative reviews (of preproduction models) already, mostly centering around AF (apparently similar to A7r2-level), and opinions among Nikon users I know have been mixed to underwhelmed, with most saying 'I'll stick with my SLR' rather than switching to mirrorless. In a way, Nikon is a victim of its own success - the new camera needed to outdo the D850 (probably the best all-round SLR out there, and by no small margin) but mostly fails to do this. If they had never released the D850, or if it had been a lemon, there would probably be more people interested in switching (assuming they didn't switch to Sony first).

The question is not whether Nikon is trying to provide a migration path - they clearly are, so it's not even a question. The more relevant questions are whether a large proportion of current Nikon shooters will follow this migration path, and whether it is even the best migration path to mirrorless for current F-mount users. After all, porting your existing lenses to mirrorless and using an adapter is only one of several possible paths to mirrorless. There is also the option of selling your entire lens lineup now, for a good amount of money, and buying an all-new, all-mirrorless system (in which case Sony would have the clear advantage), or sticking it out with SLR until your lenses become obsolete and are due for replacement anyway (in which case the advantage would be with whichever mirrorless system is dominant in 5-10 years' time). Nikon will clearly try to sell it as a migration path, and the marketing will reflect this. But whether it is the best path remains to be seen, and likely depends on how many F-mount lenses (and which ones) you already have.
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #718 on: August 26, 2018, 01:12:07 am »

I think the dual card issue is really not all that important.  As was noted if a card is bad, it is 99% of the time DOA and doesn't fail while shooting.  Event photographers got along just fine with single card DSLRs since the cameras were invented (I'm unsure at what point dual card cameras came on the market; maybe the last five years??).  Event photographers also don't need lots of megapixels as most of the output will not be printed but kept in digital form.  Two women who used to work for me in the pharma industry are now highly respected event photographers and they have told me there is seldom any request for more than a couple of images being printed.

It kills it for professional use. Event and wedding photographers and photojournalists - everything from backyard parties to large corporate or political events - constitute a large part of the pro market and cannot risk losing key shots or coming back with nothing, no matter how small the chance, even if it's one-in-a-million

The pro market may be much smaller than the amateur/consumer market, but it has marketing influence that belies its actual size. A lot of sales are driven by 'what the pros use', which not only drive sales of that particular piece of gear, but also drives downmarket sales of lesser gear of the same brand. Witness Canon's marketing success through its highly-visible big white lenses and pro bodies at sporting events.

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IMO, the big advantage of mirrorless is in size and weight assuming image quality is not compromised by camera/lens design.  For those of us who are getting up in age and enjoy international travel this advance is great.  I upgraded to a D810 just as the model was nearing the end of the cycle as there was a great discount from B&H.  Because of the investment in Nikon lenses over the years, it was difficult to rationalize switching to a non-Nikon mirrorless system (some of the older Nikon lenses purchased in the 1970-1980 time period continue work well on DSLR bodies once the tab is shaved off and one gets use to manual focusing which for landscape photography is just fine).  Were the Z cameras available a couple of years ago I would have purchased one but now it is a more difficult choice (it would be different if photography was a business and I could amortize it on my tax filing).

The way Sony has moved since the launch of the A7 suggests that this is clearly not the case - at least not with full-frame bodies. If it were all size and weight, they'd be releasing pancake lens after pancake lens, focusing on slower zooms and primes with good optical quality rather than f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes which are just as big as their SLR equivalents.

Those primarily concerned with size and weight have already moved to Olympus M43, which caters to that niche (and does it very well).
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #719 on: August 26, 2018, 01:23:41 am »

I donít when they will be released, but I think we will get:
- z8 which is a a9mk II competitor high speed camera
- z9 which is a a9r competitor with 60+ megapixel

I would bet summer 2019 announcement.

Cheers,
Bernard

I suspect they'll move the other direction first - a Z5, designed as an entry-level full-frame mirrorless body, possibly (?probably) undercutting the A7III in both features and price, packaged with a 24-70/4 or 24/105/4 to entice new buyers into the Nikon system. The A7III is 'cheap' only by the standards of Sony full-frame cameras and lenses - there's plenty of room to undercut it with a product aimed at casual shooters, who are only ever going to have one or two lenses, but who want better image quality (or better low-light performance) than a crop body can provide.

There's no point releasing a high-speed action body when you don't have the native lenses to go with it. This won't happen for a few years - probably not until after the Tokyo Olympics (there's no point having a sports camera for the Olympics when you don't have the fast superteles to go with it).

As for the 60+ MP body, that probably won't happen for a few years, for the same reason. If they released it in 2019, it would be several years before enough high-end lenses were available to do it justice, by which time the body would be obsolete and due for replacement by a new generation (?Z9II). You don't buy a top-end body to use it with a rigged-together system of third-party lenses and adapters (F-mount being third-party on a Z-mount camera). And the Sony equivalent could just as easily be the A7r4 (in 2020) as the A9r.
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