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Author Topic: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018  (Read 66150 times)

shadowblade

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #640 on: August 24, 2018, 09:40:24 pm »

From people who have actually used and tested it

  • Z7 only manages 9fps with a battery grip. Without the grip, it slows to 5.5fps. The Z6 is slowed by a similar amount.
  • Z7 only has a 2.5 second buffer when shooting 12-bit compressed RAW (obviously less when shooting 14 bit, and more when shooting JPEG). No mention as to whether this is when shooting with or without a grip.
  • Slow buffer clearance - compared with the original-series A7/A7r (not that the A7r3/A9 are particularly fast either, unless you're using a single UHS-II card - Sony needs to fix this in the next generation and use UHS-II for both slots)
  • Half the rated battery life compared with the A7r3. But we knew this one already.
  • No exposure compensation dial. Far less needed on mirrorless, since you have a real-time through-the-lens exposure simulation, but it might take some getting used to. Certainly, I've never touched the dial on the Sony, but I never use Tv or Av modes either - mirrorless makes manual exposure very easy.

If true, some of these are huge deal-breakers. 9fps is fine for action. 5.5fps puts in a completely different, slower class. The small buffer and slow clearance would also make it largely a non-action camera.
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eronald

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #641 on: August 24, 2018, 09:43:01 pm »

Bernard,

BTW, I do think some fast advances could be made in computational photography if the best work in this field hadn't been done in remote sensing, reconnaissance and targeting, and has thus been classified for a long time. But then seeing who I am talking to ...

Edmund
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eronald

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #642 on: August 24, 2018, 09:49:18 pm »

I am speaking about mount and lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard

It's not obvious at all that the right designs for electronic-viewing lenses are the same as for the old optical-viewing lenses.

So I expect a lens design revolution to hit quite quickly when the current designs are amortized, but I think as with everything camera-related the phone guys will leapfrog the camera companies.

Edmund
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #643 on: August 24, 2018, 09:49:41 pm »

BTW, I do think some fast advances could be made in computational photography if the best work in this field hadn't been done in remote sensing, reconnaissance and targeting, and has thus been classified for a long time. But then seeing who I am talking to ...

I fully agree. I have been stating many times that smartphones will soon kill low end DSLR and computational photography will play a big role.

In fact I am not involved in such developments. The company I work for is not defense related. 😉

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 10:00:39 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #644 on: August 24, 2018, 09:58:52 pm »

From people who have actually used and tested it

  • Z7 only manages 9fps with a battery grip. Without the grip, it slows to 5.5fps. The Z6 is slowed by a similar amount.

No, this is not true at all:
- 9fps in 12 bits compressed raw with exposure locked
- 8 fps in 14 bits compressed raw with exposure locked
- 5.5 fps in 14 bits compressed raw

  • Z7 only has a 2.5 second buffer when shooting 12-bit compressed RAW (obviously less when shooting 14 bit, and more when shooting JPEG). No mention as to whether this is when shooting with or without a grip.

Correct

  • Slow buffer clearance - compared with the original-series A7/A7r (not that the A7r3/A9 are particularly fast either, unless you're using a single UHS-II card - Sony needs to fix this in the next generation and use UHS-II for both slots)

Would be surprising considering how fast XQD is, but could be. Don't forget these are beta cameras.

  • No exposure compensation dial. Far less needed on mirrorless, since you have a real-time through-the-lens exposure simulation, but it might take some getting used to. Certainly, I've never touched the dial on the Sony, but I never use Tv or Av modes either - mirrorless makes manual exposure very easy.

These is an exposure compensation dial just right of the shutter... not sure how you could possibly miss it and it is certain that any tester would have known this. So your introduction that this information is coming from actual testers cannot possibly be true. Some would call it "fake news".

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #645 on: August 24, 2018, 10:05:47 pm »

I fully agree. I have been stating many times that smartphones will soon kill low end DSLR and computational photography will play a big role.

In fact I am not involved in such developments. 😉

Cheers,
Bernard

Nikon's real problem when creating its lens roadmap is that their cameras are a footnote to the billion or so phones being sold every year. The key to the way lens design co-evolves with computational photography will be in the custom silicon, and the custom silicon will be spun off whatever the cellphone guys need.

And then of course there is the little problem that their cameras are not socially connected. Do I pull out my iPhone and post the image of the kids on the rollercoaster immediately to the family insta acct, or do I say that I will do it when I get home from vacation?  The japanese industry has historically underestimated the importance of software - this is what allowed the iPhone and cousins to genocide the very advanced japanese mobile phone industry, in the same way the Internet effortlessly strangled France's flourishing Minitel system.


Edmund
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #646 on: August 24, 2018, 10:07:18 pm »

Agreed, but the same applies for all SLR, mirrorless or not.

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #647 on: August 24, 2018, 10:11:17 pm »

Agreed, but the same applies for all SLR, mirrorless or not.

Cheers,
Bernard

Actually, no. If an SLR is optical then the lens needs to be "see through",  most lens aberrations need to be corrected optically, by convention, so the lens optics are mostly system-agnostic.
This is what allows these huge lens ranges to flourish over a long period, it is an ecosystem of interchangeable parts.

Electronic imaging allows lenses you cannot "look through" to be be employed in a digital still camera (I forget the acronym),  but these lenses are then captive to the type of electronics you employ to recover the image ...

I liked the age of optics, but I think it will disappear like the age of film, well within my lifetime.

Edmund
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 10:17:43 pm by eronald »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #648 on: August 24, 2018, 10:16:19 pm »

Actually, no. If an SLR is optical then the lens needs to be "see through",  most lens aberrations need to be corrected optically, by convention, so the lens optics are mostly system-agnostic.
This is what allows these huge lens ranges to flourish over a long period, it is an ecosystem of interchangeable parts.

Electronic imaging allows lenses you cannot "look through" to be be employed; but these are then captive to the type of electronics you employ to recover the image ...

How are Nikon and Sony different from that standpoint?

Cheers,
Bernard

shadowblade

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #649 on: August 24, 2018, 10:16:39 pm »

No, this is not true at all:
- 9fps in 12 bits compressed raw with exposure locked
- 8 fps in 14 bits compressed raw with exposure locked
- 5.5 fps in 14 bits compressed raw

Actual tested speeds, or just according to the spec sheet? As we have seen from Sony mirrorless cameras (as well as Canon/Nikon SLRs), what's on the spec sheet can be quite different from actual use and often represents a best-case scenario, with idiosyncrasies discovered only upon release and further testing.

Obviously, the testers would have had preproduction cameras, which likely don't function as well as the release model will.

Quote
Correct

Would be surprising considering how fast XQD is, but could be. Don't forget these are beta cameras.

Slow buffer clearance is usually more of an issue than small buffers. I can work in 1-2 second bursts, if I don't have to wait 15 seconds or so between them.

It may not be due to XQD, but other bottlenecks in the data handling pipeline.

Quote
These is an exposure compensation dial just right of the shutter... not sure how you could possibly miss it and it is certain that any tester would have known this.

It looks like a big control wheel with no markings to me. Has it actually been stated to be an exposure compensation dial?

Quote
So your introduction that this information is coming from actual testers cannot possibly be true. Some would call it "fake news".

Not my quote. I merely reposted it from another site, which actually linked the pages where testers reported each of these issues. I have no reason to doubt the honesty or motivations of the testers, regardless of the accuracy of their results.
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eronald

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #650 on: August 24, 2018, 10:19:13 pm »

How are Nikon and Sony different from that standpoint?

Cheers,
Bernard

Exactly as with the whole mirrorless tech: Sony are close to the camera phone engineers and to the silicon. They can see 2 or 3 years further into the future.

I mean the economic future: They know what chips will fall fully designed into their camera designer's hands in 2 years. All of this tech design stuff is I believe a little like romance:: Your success rate is different if you know ahead of time whether she plans to go on the date, or she's just thinking about it :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 10:25:13 pm by eronald »
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D Fuller

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #651 on: August 24, 2018, 10:26:42 pm »

You are a very annoying man, Dave: I was just about to make a similar post. "The reason disputes in academia are so vicious is that the stakes are so small." But I'll forgive you.

Jeremy

Jeremy, I like your phrasing better, so thereís that.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #653 on: August 24, 2018, 10:36:15 pm »

https://m.dpreview.com/articles/1904416326/nikon-z-7-sample-videos

Looks like Nikon is starting to be competitive on the video front.

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #654 on: August 24, 2018, 10:40:09 pm »

Exactly as with the whole mirrorless tech: Sony are close to the camera phone engineers and to the silicon. They can see 2 or 3 years further into the future.

I mean the economic future: They know what chips will fall fully designed into their camera designer's hands in 2 years. All of this tech design stuff is I believe a little like romance:: Your success rate is different if you know ahead of time whether she plans to go on the date, or she's just thinking about it :)

Maybe some day...

For now computational photography is concentrating on merging images shot from different tiny lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard

D White

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #655 on: August 24, 2018, 10:48:52 pm »

I find this to be an exiting time and transition.

I have come to appreciate the advantages of mirrorless with the Olympus system I use for overseas travel, I love real time histograms for instance and waste far less time reviewing exposure after the fact. And IBIS is such a big advantage across the board of lens use, and stunning with those lenses that also have optical stabilization. The small form factor will keep me using the Olympus for travel as we all know that the format size is the biggest influence on system size as opposed to simply going mirrorless.

But when back home or traveling in North America for my landscapes I continue to love using my Canon as well.

Thus I look forward to what Canon will offer. My wish list is for better sensors, IBIS, and eye detection focus among other things. (Eye detection is semi wizard in the Olympus and would be greatly appreciated with wide open portrait focal lengths).

But, as you know with Canon, they may score well with many of their lenses but they have a habit of disappointed too when it comes to some aspects of their bodies. Innovation with bodies has not been their history for some time now. They are solid and reliable but always seem a step behind.

But I digress; the exciting thing is that we are entering an era of semi body agnostic. If Canon disappoints I may very well try at least a Sony body, or perhaps a Nikon if reasonable adapters show up. For landscape work, adapters are likely to perform well enough, but there are obviously mixed reviews when it come to AF performance.

But if I like what I see with a competing body, it would trigger a transition to native lenses away from Canon, at least for those that benefit the most from AF performance. (I would not give up my Canon TS lenses and a few others). Mirrorless bodies are opening up the option to transition at a measured pace rather than dumping everything at once.

Maybe I will even join Bernard to the dark side of the force, (Nikon).

Changing systems must be carefully evaluated as it is obviously a significant expenditure over time, despite those here that feel a DDS degree is a license to be extravagant. They forget, I still have a wife to answer too. And with my luck, just as I complete a transition, Canon will come out with the most amazing body that crushes every one else.

One thing I have not seen a comment on yet; will the Nikon IBIS work in conjunction with optical stabilized F series lenses via their adaptor?

Regards
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D Fuller

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #656 on: August 24, 2018, 10:56:04 pm »


Slow buffer clearance is usually more of an issue than small buffers. I can work in 1-2 second bursts, if I don't have to wait 15 seconds or so between them.

It may not be due to XQD, but other bottlenecks in the data handling pipeline.

I watched a panel discussion hosted by B&H this evening. The Sports Illustrated photographers on it described buffer clearing fast enough that buffer size was never a problem. So reports of slow clearing may have been from earlier beta cameras.

It looks like a big control wheel with no markings to me. Has it actually been stated to be an exposure compensation dial?

Itís been stated to be a multi-use dial. Interestingly, the Ďcontrol ringí on the lenses can be programmed to be exposure compensation as well if you donít want to use manual focus.

Alsoóon battery life: the same SI photog mentioned above claimed he shot all dayó2000 framesówithout exhausting one battery. Thatís 6x better than the CIPA spec of 330. And on that note, the Nikon spec sheet has been updated to a rated 85 minutes of movie recording.

He also claimed that SnapBridge worked very well for remote controlling the cameras.

Finally, he said that after testing them, he has four on orderótwo each of the z7 and z6. All in all, a very encouraging review.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #657 on: August 24, 2018, 11:05:02 pm »

Yes, IBIS is said to work in conjunction with lens VR, they combine the forte of both.

On exposure compensation, there are 2 ways:
- dedicated button right of shutter that is clearly visible on images of the camera shot from the top
- by enabling a setting in the menu the rotation of the rear wheel enables direct compensation without pushing anywhere

Cheers,
Bernard

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #658 on: August 24, 2018, 11:54:37 pm »

Yes, IBIS is said to work in conjunction with lens VR, they combine the forte of both.

On exposure compensation, there are 2 ways:
- dedicated button right of shutter that is clearly visible on images of the camera shot from the top
- by enabling a setting in the menu the rotation of the rear wheel enables direct compensation without pushing anywhere

Cheers,
Bernard

According to the B&H panel, one can also program the lens ring to control exposure compensation instead of focus Iíd you like.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #659 on: August 25, 2018, 12:17:54 am »

Indeed, I had forgotten that.

Cheers,
Bernard
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