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Author Topic: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018  (Read 72114 times)

davidgp

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #520 on: August 23, 2018, 04:03:31 am »

Nice coverage in DPReview:

- Z 7 first impressions - https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-z7-first-impressions-review
- Z 7 impressions: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/4160692612/nikon-z7-what-you-need-to-know-about-nikon-s-first-mirrorless-full-frame-ilc
- Z 7 with adapted lenses: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/0039746111/what-s-the-nikon-z-like-with-adapted-lenses?slide=9
- Hands on with Z lenses: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/1697483390/hands-on-with-nikon-s-three-z-series-lenses

P.D.: not sure who in Nikon marketing thought about the name strategy... but it looks ugly that white space between the Z and model number of the camera...

davidgp

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #521 on: August 23, 2018, 04:09:28 am »

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #522 on: August 23, 2018, 05:25:46 am »

One slightly disappointing piece of information I have just come across I was not aware of is that the 58mm f0.95 appears to be a manual focus lens.

I have been working without issues with with my Otus glass so far, so this can be done, and will be much easier with an EVF, but it is nonetheless a bit sad that the new AF isn't compatible with super bright glass.

I also find it misguiding that nothing in the lens naming reveals this aspect.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 05:32:27 am by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #523 on: August 23, 2018, 05:39:13 am »

Nikon Z, my current takeways.

Positive:
- what may be the most future proof mount ever introduced
- perfect body size/weight with an ergonomics that is appealing for Nikon users
- same of better image quality as the D850
- very solid first entry in the high end mirrorless world
- the basics seem to be well implemented, from EVF, to AF, to F mount adapter
- the quality of the lenses promises to be outstanding
- Lens roadmap published with many appealing lenses
- much better video specs (from AF to quality of files)
- only a month from annoucment to availability of first producs, this isn't a paperware announcment
- silent shooting
- sensor stabilization
- weather sealing
- current batteries can be used and USB charging
- LCD with good resolution

Negative:
- only one memory card slot
- no eye AF (we will need to see how good the face AF is)
- some physical controls may be missing, will need to see how easy the function buttons/User setting will be able to compensate - the only one that worries me is AF modes control
- non open mount will complicate delivery of adapters
- prices a bit on the high side (more so in Japan than in the US)
- the 58mm f0.95 is MF only, but then again we don't know if it even possible technologically to AF such a design
- buffer a bit shallow but should be fine for non action shooting

Overall, as a Nikon user heavily invested in F mount lenses, I find the Z7 an appealing proposition, a bit more so that the Sony a7rIII. I would probably look at things differently without my F mount lenses.

The only aspect I am really worried about in fact is the lack of double memory slot. This is in a context where my XQD cards have been 100% reliable till now.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 06:16:53 am by BernardLanguillier »
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davidgp

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #524 on: August 23, 2018, 06:12:31 am »

Nikon Z, my current takeways.

Positive:
- what may be the most future proof mount ever introduced
- perfect body size/weight with an ergonomics that is appealing for Nikon users
- same of better image quality as the D850
- very solid first entry in the high end mirrorless world
- the basics seem to be well implemented, from EVF, to AF, to F mount adapter
- the quality of the lenses promises to be outstanding
- Lens roadmap published with many appealing lenses
- much better video specs (from AF to quality of files)
- only a month from annoucment to availability of first producs, this isn't a paperware announcment

Negative:
- only one memory card slot
- no eye AF (we will need to see how good the face AF is)
- some physical controls may be missing, will need to see how easy the function buttons/User setting will be able to compensate - the only one that worries me is AF modes control
- non open mount will complicate delivery of adapters
- prices a bit on the high side (more so in Japan than in the US)
- the 58mm f0.95 is AF only, but then again we don't know if it even possible technologically to AF such a design
- buffer a bit shallow but should be fine for non action shooting

Overall, as a Nikon user heavily invested in F mount lenses, I find the Z7 an appealing proposition, a bit more so that the Sony a7rIII. I would probably look at things differently without my F mount lenses.

The only aspect I am really worried about in fact is the lack of double memory slot. This is in a context where my XQD cards have been 100% reliable till now.

Hi Bernard,

More or less I agree with you. I saw in DPReview that they complained a bit about the lacking of 3D Tracking and some of the way the AF configuration operates, but the latter I assume that it could be improved in future firmware releases. The same goes for Eye AF, if the processor in the Z cameras can handle it, it can be added later on via firmware update.

From a video point of view I will add a positive and a negative to your list:

- Positive: 10 bit HDMI output, interesting for people that does color grading.
- Negative: In FF 4k mode, they are doing line skipping, so less image quality. If you want the best quality you need to record in DX/Super 35mm that does a pixel by pixel reading. More sharper image.

Yes, if I had a lot of F lenses, my route will be the Nikon system for sure, the Sony system will not make sense at all. With that roadmap of lenses looks like Nikon is not thinking this just like an exercise to see how many user will be interested in this kind of system. My position is different, having switch from Canon to Sony in the last two years, now I have an investment in cameras and lenses... so I will stick with Sony for the next years (in the future, who knows?).

P.D.: I suppose you wanted to say "the 58mm f0.95 is MF only"

Regards,

David

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #525 on: August 23, 2018, 06:17:27 am »

P.D.: I suppose you wanted to say "the 58mm f0.95 is MF only"

Hi David,

Yes, thanks, corrected.

Cheers,
Bernard

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #526 on: August 23, 2018, 06:49:36 am »

Would have liked to see the 750 buttonplacement (lefthand thumb for chimping) with less clutter on the righthand side.

What do we make of a 60hz vf refreshrate for say a z6 in eventsetting?
Or the cipa rating of 330 in a similar setting? Maybe yes as a silent second body?
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davidgp

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #527 on: August 23, 2018, 07:01:22 am »

I correct myself... looks like Z 6 is not doing line skipping in FF mode...

Hi Bernard,

More or less I agree with you. I saw in DPReview that they complained a bit about the lacking of 3D Tracking and some of the way the AF configuration operates, but the latter I assume that it could be improved in future firmware releases. The same goes for Eye AF, if the processor in the Z cameras can handle it, it can be added later on via firmware update.

From a video point of view I will add a positive and a negative to your list:

- Positive: 10 bit HDMI output, interesting for people that does color grading.
- Negative: In FF 4k mode, they are doing line skipping, so less image quality. If you want the best quality you need to record in DX/Super 35mm that does a pixel by pixel reading. More sharper image.

Yes, if I had a lot of F lenses, my route will be the Nikon system for sure, the Sony system will not make sense at all. With that roadmap of lenses looks like Nikon is not thinking this just like an exercise to see how many user will be interested in this kind of system. My position is different, having switch from Canon to Sony in the last two years, now I have an investment in cameras and lenses... so I will stick with Sony for the next years (in the future, who knows?).

P.D.: I suppose you wanted to say "the 58mm f0.95 is MF only"

Regards,

David



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mcbroomf

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #528 on: August 23, 2018, 07:58:06 am »

Most certainly, although it will remain to be seen how they behave AF wise.

You should even be able to mount Sony mirrorless lenses on this. The mount is much larger with a more shallow flange distance, it should be enough to build a adapter. Since the Sony AF protocol is public, the adapter manufacturers will just need to reverse engineer the Nikon Z/S protocol.

Cheers,
Bernard

I'm not so sure that a Sony FE - Nion Z mount adapter is feasible.  With the Sony flange distance of 18mm and Nikon 16mm the adapter can only be 2mm thick.  It will have to support a solid backing to both sets of contacts and a CPU for AF and aperture control.  Obviously no space for that inside like the Metabones Canon _Sony so it will have to hang off the bottom, to only 2mm of metal.  I just don't see it.  A completely dumb adapter could be made like the Leica M - Sony but I see no purpose to use lenses like that.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #529 on: August 23, 2018, 08:00:33 am »

Indeed, 2mm isnít enough with the same diameter, but the much larger diameter may make something possoble.

Cheers,
Bernard

davidgp

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #530 on: August 23, 2018, 08:12:36 am »

I'm not so sure that a Sony FE - Nion Z mount adapter is feasible.  With the Sony flange distance of 18mm and Nikon 16mm the adapter can only be 2mm thick.  It will have to support a solid backing to both sets of contacts and a CPU for AF and aperture control.  Obviously no space for that inside like the Metabones Canon _Sony so it will have to hang off the bottom, to only 2mm of metal.  I just don't see it.  A completely dumb adapter could be made like the Leica M - Sony but I see no purpose to use lenses like that.

Without electronics it will only be useful if you want to adapt Zeiss Loxia lens or Voigtlander ones, or any other complete manual one. E system is fully electronic. To focus the lens (it is focus by wire) or change aperture you need the electronics. And, anyway, I will expect that Zeiss creates Loxia equivalentes to Z mount (no Batis ones) and the rest of manual focus lenses like Voitglander or Laowa to port their designs to the system...

mcbroomf

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #531 on: August 23, 2018, 08:47:09 am »

Without electronics it will only be useful if you want to adapt Zeiss Loxia lens or Voigtlander ones, or any other complete manual one. E system is fully electronic. To focus the lens (it is focus by wire) or change aperture you need the electronics. And, anyway, I will expect that Zeiss creates Loxia equivalentes to Z mount (no Batis ones) and the rest of manual focus lenses like Voitglander or Laowa to port their designs to the system...

That's a good point about Loxia and VC lenses but I agree with you that Zeiss and Voigtlander will likely bring out NZ versions pretty quickly once they've figured out the NZ protocol (to pass EXIF data).  I think there will be a market for Leica M - NZ and it will be interesting to see the 1st tests and find out if the Leica WA lenses suffer from edge and corner smearing as they do on the Sony due to the cover glass.
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davidgp

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #532 on: August 23, 2018, 08:55:45 am »

That's a good point about Loxia and VC lenses but I agree with you that Zeiss and Voigtlander will likely bring out NZ versions pretty quickly once they've figured out the NZ protocol (to pass EXIF data).  I think there will be a market for Leica M - NZ and it will be interesting to see the 1st tests and find out if the Leica WA lenses suffer from edge and corner smearing as they do on the Sony due to the cover glass.

I will not keep my hopes up for that. Nikon cover glass in the latests models is more or less more close to Sony sensor width than Leica one: https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/06/sensor-stack-thickness-when-does-it-matter/ . If they want to keep less problems using adapted F lenses in Z mount, I don't think they will have a very thin sensor layer like Leica likes to use.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 10:18:28 am by davidgp »
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KLaban

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #533 on: August 23, 2018, 09:59:10 am »

That's a good point about Loxia and VC lenses but I agree with you that Zeiss and Voigtlander will likely bring out NZ versions pretty quickly once they've figured out the NZ protocol (to pass EXIF data).  I think there will be a market for Leica M - NZ and it will be interesting to see the 1st tests and find out if the Leica WA lenses suffer from edge and corner smearing as they do on the Sony due to the cover glass.

There may well be a market for that adaptor, but I wouldn't be banking on the Leica lenses behaving themselves with the Nikon sensor stack.
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mcbroomf

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #534 on: August 23, 2018, 10:33:45 am »

Could well be.  In the early Sony FF days people were desperately looking for good Leica - Sony matches, but now that Zeiss and VC have started reformulating their glass for the Sony sensor cover thickness it's probably a moot point.
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Kevin Raber

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #535 on: August 23, 2018, 10:57:27 am »

We have both cameras and lenses coming when delivery starts and will report on them when they arrive.  The new Z cameras look interesting and the mirrorless market is getting to be more fun.  I am not at the NYC event this week since I am running a workshop but will have one of the first production units of each camera when they ship.  We'll also do an On The Rocks video with the camera.  Surprised about the one card slot.  Also, really interested on how fast the camera focuses with the adapter.  We have one of those coming also. 

Now, it's Canon's turn. 
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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #536 on: August 23, 2018, 12:28:38 pm »

Being use to the Nikon interface from using my D800 it's an easy decision for me, assuming the image quality holds up.  I have tried the Sony but I don't like the user interface.  The more choices the better for all of us.  Being a Phase user I hope they have a mirrorless system in the works.  I'm getting to old to lug all this heavy equipment around :)

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #537 on: August 23, 2018, 12:37:49 pm »

Not particularly impressed with Nikon's announcements today. They look like they're aimed at weaning existing Nikon shooters off SLR and onto mirrorless, as opposed to attracting outsiders to the new system. Individually, each item looks decent enough (with certain weaknesses in the body specs), but, taken as a whole, they don't provide a compelling reason for those not already shooting Nikon to move to the Z-mount, nor a particularly strong reason for those not heavily invested in F-mount to move to Z-mount rather than moving to Sony, or waiting to see what Canon has to offer.

With the bodies themselves:
  • One card slot? What were they thinking? This point alone makes the Z6 and Z7 less than worthy of being considered top-tier systems and unsuitable for a lot of professional use. It doesn't matter if the risk of card failure is one in a million - if that one is you, and you're shooting a must-capture event that can't (or won't) be repeated, you'd better have a backup. But, due to other factors, it probably hurts Nikon less than it otherwise could have. In truth, the Z6 and Z7 could not have been the foundation of a pro-focused system, almost regardless of their specs. More on that later.
  • The listed battery life is around half that of the A7r3/A9. Any A7r/A7r2/A7s/A7s2 user will know how annoying it was to have to carry a whole bag of batteries around, even if each one wasn't very big.
  • The Z7 is essentially a mirrorless D850, or A7r3 clone. But it comes a year later than the D850 and A7r3, without the A7r3's lens options or the D850's performance with F-mount lenses - it looks to be a case of 'me too' rather than an attractive product in its own right. If you already own lots of F-mount lenses, why not just get a D850? If you don't, what reason is there to get the Z7 rather than the A7r3?
  • The Z6 looks to be an updated D750 and seems more interesting than the Z7. At the right price (e.g. less than the A7III, as an introductory price due to the new mount and lack of lens options) it could be very attractive to buyers looking to move into full frame for the first time, locking them into the system with lens purchases as more lenses are released. But I doubt Nikon will market it that way.
  • Again, one card slot???

With the system:
  • The initial lens releases pretty much tie it to hobbyist use. A 24-70/4 and two relatively-slow primes might be attractive as a travel photography starter kit, and the upcoming 58/0.95 might win over hipsters and the artsy types, but simply won't cut it as a pro kit. If they had released a 24-70/2.8 and a 70-200/2.8 as their first two lenses, with a 16-35/2.8 or 14-24/2.8 coming soon after, they would have had a very solid starter kit to encourage pros to move into the new system. Sure, you can use F-mount lenses with an adapter (with whatever AF and alignment issues that introduces), but that still leaves pros with no incentive to move to Z-mount - those who have F-mount lenses can just use them on a D5 or D850 without an adapter and get better performance, while Sony already has a full ecosystem of bodies and lenses, ready for pro use, for those who don't already have a bag full of F-mount lenses. Ironically, this is why the single card slot probably hurts them less than it could have - the single card slot makes the cameras less viable for a pro setup, but the lack of core lenses makes it less-than-attractive as a pro system anyway, at least until the next generation (which may come sooner rather than later).
  • The lens roadmap is a good start, providing some certainty for those looking to move into the new system, but is likely too slow. The 14-24/24-70/70-200 f/2.8 trinity won't be ready until the next generation of Nikon is almost ready for release, and the next generation of Sony is likely to have already been released. There won't be any long telephotos in time for the Tokyo Olympics.
  • The closed mount will only make uptake of the system slower, due to fewer lenses being available and possible compatibility issues (a bit like earlier-generation Sigmas on Canon cameras).

Overall, I'm not sure what Nikon has achieved here. They either needed to smash it out of the park for the pros with a top-tier, full-featured body (with two card slots) and a lens lineup ready for pro use (even if it's just two or three core fast zooms) at time of launch, or to try to undercut the A7III with a camera designed for new users to full-frame, locking them into the Nikon framework and Z-mount while building up their lineup for pro use later. They haven't really done either - instead, they seem to have done something in between.

Assuming that people are logical and go for whichever system will benefit them most and give them the most bang for buck, rather than having an unhealthy attraction to brand name and marketing alone, this is how it stands at the moment:

If you already own a lot of high-end F-mount lenses - stick with the D850 or D5. Why would you take a bunch of good lenses that work perfectly well on Nikon SLRs and put them on a system that's more expensive (compared with the D850), where you have to use an adapter, with less battery life, with a single card slot, and where they probably wont' autofocus as well? It's not as if D850s and D5s are going to disappear off the shelf tomorrow. This lot aren't moving to mirrorless with this generation, although they will likely gradually leak across as fewer and fewer F-mount lenses and bodies get released.

If you own one or two high-end F-mount lenses - are you happy with SLR, or do you have a particular reason to go for mirrorless? If SLR is serving you well, why not stick with it for another generation or so, until both bodies and lenses become outdated? If you particularly want to move to mirrorless (for whatever reason), are you so wedded to Nikon that you must move to Z-mount and use your existing lenses with an adapter and reduced performance, or would you be better off selling your current lenses and moving to E-mount and the equivalent lenes there (or waiting another two years for Nikon to release suitable native Z-mount lenses)? In this category, they're all acceptable options.

If you shoot Canon full-frame - you really have no reason to move to Z-mount at the moment. Maybe in a generation's time, as your lenses age out and Z-mount becomes more viable, with more lens options, and it becomes clearer where Nikon and Canon are going with mirrorless, but, for now, sticking with Canon SLR seems like the most sensible choice if you're in no hurry to move, or moving to Sony (with good support for Canon lenses via Metabones adapters, and lots of native lens choices) if you particularly want to move to mirrorless or aren't happy with Canon's body and sensor offerings.

If you don't currently shoot full-frame at all - the Z6, with some compact lenses, might be interesting if the price is right, if you don't need the bigger/faster/longer lenses right away and are prepared to build up a lens collection over time. Otherwise, there's a whole Sony ecosystem out there, with lenses available for any budget and almost any shooting style.

So, at present, it looks much more interesting for existing Nikon users looking for a second, compact body than for anyone not already using the Nikon system. This will likely change over time, as the Z-mount lineup grows, but, right now, it doesn't look like it will challenge E-mount for another generation or so, and will only grow market share by slowly weaning F-mount users away from SLR, rather than pulling people away from E-mount.

It will be interesting to see what Canon does. If they release a similarly-performing full-frame mirrorless body, with dual card slots and 24-70 and 70-200 f/2.8 lenses at the outset, Z mount will struggle.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #539 on: August 23, 2018, 02:48:30 pm »

... The new 50mm 0.95 looks like it will come with a high price tag: https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/the-bokeh-king-noct-58mm-f-095-lens-will-cost-about-6000/

With non-phone cameras losing popularity contest, they aim for the luxury market. The proverbial dentists and lawyers.
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