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Author Topic: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018  (Read 96374 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1540 on: January 08, 2019, 01:37:50 am »

Most of the wide zooms tend to be significantly worse on the long end, I would wait to see how the new 14-30 is. It is impressive that itís so close size wise to the Fuji 10-24, a very good hiking lens that is not WR (although it looks like it could take a lot).

Good point indeed.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bo_Dez

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1541 on: January 08, 2019, 04:28:41 am »

Depends what ones final display is with their images. Mine is prints and books. If someone just displays their images on screens, do we really need all those megapixels?

The monitor is the judge, jury and executioner of a professional's client.
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kers

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1542 on: January 08, 2019, 07:09:04 am »

good news today-  the f4 14-30 is out - only 450 gr!
and upcoming firmware for  Eye AF, Raw video and CFexpress...
It seems Nikon is listening...and working hard to make the Z a succes.
Also a change of tactics with the past were firmware updates did not bring new features.

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hogloff

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1543 on: January 08, 2019, 10:29:35 am »

The monitor is the judge, jury and executioner of a professional's client.

I sell my prints and my clients never ever see the images on any monitor. Do you think a bride will be looking at their online proofs zoomed in 100%...or maybe it's just bit head Photographers.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1544 on: January 08, 2019, 10:47:11 am »

I sell my prints and my clients never ever see the images on any monitor. Do you think a bride will be looking at their online proofs zoomed in 100%...or maybe it's just bit head Photographers.
A woman who worked with me moved into photography full time and does a lot of wedding work.  Most all clients want electronic wedding albums these days and prints are a very minor part of the mix.
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kers

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1545 on: January 08, 2019, 10:59:35 am »

Depends what ones final display is with their images. Mine is prints and books. If someone just displays their images on screens, do we really need all those megapixels?

There are many types of photographers with different needs...
I think you are right that the focus is a bit too much on the amount of pixels...still in my work i need them. (www.beeld.nu/beeld)
If you print for books usually an A3-300px/inch will be perfect; meaning a  24MP camera with a good lens is more than sufficient and leaves even room for cropping.
I also tend to look and judge my photos 100% on screen, but you are right that it often is not important.
Images from mobile phones look lousy at 100% but in print they look better than expected.  (about 25%)
That said - screen is already the most popular way of seeing photographs, but then especially on a phone and laptop, so often a low quality will do.
However in the near future 8K screens will be the new norm, not only for new, but also for the earlier made photographs.
Then we talk about 40-50MP .
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armand

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1546 on: January 08, 2019, 11:09:42 am »

To me it is pretty much the same topic. AF is already fast when the camera knows what to focus on.

Cheers,
Bernard

One would hope.
Issues are with low light and if it uses PDAF with CDAF or just CDAF. With CDAF only it seems it is not that fast.

hogloff

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1547 on: January 08, 2019, 01:24:00 pm »

A woman who worked with me moved into photography full time and does a lot of wedding work.  Most all clients want electronic wedding albums these days and prints are a very minor part of the mix.

Right...but do you think the clients zoom in to 100% for viewing...or do they view them on a simple monitor or TV...or maybe just put them onto a wedding FB page.
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faberryman

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1548 on: January 08, 2019, 01:33:57 pm »

Right...but do you think the clients zoom in to 100% for viewing...or do they view them on a simple monitor or TV...or maybe just put them onto a wedding FB page.
Quality does not matter. Any old junk camera will do. The client will not know the difference anyway. Good enough is good enough. Always strive to provide the least quality you can get away with.

D Fuller

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1549 on: January 08, 2019, 02:07:00 pm »

So much so for those nay sayers who have been swearing that Nikon would never ever add features through firmware updates...  ;D

https://www.dpreview.com/news/7011682215/nikon-to-add-eye-af-raw-video-support-and-cfexpress-support-to-z-series

Cheers,
Bernard

For those of us who do video, support for raw output is huge. I had never even hoped for 10-bit raw suppler from a camera in this class. (At least not now.)
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hogloff

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1550 on: January 08, 2019, 02:46:19 pm »

Quality does not matter. Any old junk camera will do. The client will not know the difference anyway. Good enough is good enough. Always strive to provide the least quality you can get away with.

Did I say quality doesn't matter anywhere...if not, stop being a jerk.

This line of discussion came from a statement that the Hassy H6-100 images will still knock the socks off the images from the Nikon. I just said it really depends on how one is going to view those images. So please tell me how you got off onto your ignorant tangent blather.
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faberryman

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1551 on: January 08, 2019, 03:05:15 pm »

Did I say quality doesn't matter anywhere...if not, stop being a jerk.

This line of discussion came from a statement that the Hassy H6-100 images will still knock the socks off the images from the Nikon. I just said it really depends on how one is going to view those images. So please tell me how you got off onto your ignorant tangent blather.
Referring to photographers who use current technology as "bit head" photographers led me to believe you held them in contempt.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 03:35:06 pm by faberryman »
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Telecaster

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1552 on: January 08, 2019, 03:21:01 pm »

I wouldn't worry about 8K display. A couple weeks ago a friend & I were looking at 4K and 1080 versions of the same pics on his 60" 4K TV at his standard viewing distance (~3m, closer than my own preference). In many cases we had to look carefully to tell which version was which. In very few cases did the 4K version jump out at us as clearly "better." Granted, both of us are approaching 60Öbut our glasses-corrected eyesight is still pretty good.

The difference between 4K and 8K, as display mediums, will be even more subtle. IMO wider color gamut and higher display dynamic range will have far greater visual impact.

-Dave-
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Dan Wells

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1553 on: January 08, 2019, 04:12:57 pm »

Where dids you see that the RAW video support is 10-bit? I'm not doubting that it is - but that's an even bigger deal than if it's 8-bit... I don't think any other primarily still camera does RAW video at all? The Gh5 and GH5s don't, and that would be my go-to "if anyone did..." for video features. It's quite possible, since the $1295 Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera does RAW video - it can't possibly have much more processing power and output bandwidth than the Nikons.

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1555 on: January 08, 2019, 04:50:17 pm »

Where dids you see that the RAW video support is 10-bit? I'm not doubting that it is - but that's an even bigger deal than if it's 8-bit... I don't think any other primarily still camera does RAW video at all? The Gh5 and GH5s don't, and that would be my go-to "if anyone did..." for video features. It's quite possible, since the $1295 Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera does RAW video - it can't possibly have much more processing power and output bandwidth than the Nikons.

The Z6 is shaping out to be one of the best affordable video cameras there is.
- no crop 4k
- 10 bits
- raw (soon)
- few aliasing
- great video AF with eye AF (soon)

Nikon has no dedicated video line to protect, they will deliver whatever they can come up with.

Cheers,
Bernard

hogloff

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1556 on: January 08, 2019, 05:00:31 pm »

Referring to photographers who use current technology as "bit head" photographers led me to believe you held them in contempt.

I do call photographers that examine every deep dark corner of their images at 100% view bit heads. I've yet to meet a customer / client or in fact any acquaintance that looks at images on their computers at 100%.

Just bit head photographers that worry too much about gear.
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Ray

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1557 on: January 08, 2019, 05:29:58 pm »

I wouldn't worry about 8K display. A couple weeks ago a friend & I were looking at 4K and 1080 versions of the same pics on his 60" 4K TV at his standard viewing distance (~3m, closer than my own preference). In many cases we had to look carefully to tell which version was which. In very few cases did the 4K version jump out at us as clearly "better." Granted, both of us are approaching 60Öbut our glasses-corrected eyesight is still pretty good.

The difference between 4K and 8K, as display mediums, will be even more subtle. IMO wider color gamut and higher display dynamic range will have far greater visual impact.

-Dave-

Good point, Dave. This is the main reason I haven't yet upgraded to a 4K OLED TV. In order to appreciate the full detail of a 5.9mp (1080x1920 at 120 pixels/inch) photographic still, on my current 65" Plasma HD, I have to sit as close as 2.5 to 3 metres away. An image of twice the resolution would require a screen 4x the area, that is, 130" diagonal, in order to see the full detail from a distance of 3m.

I see that LG is offering an 88" screen with 8k capability. Not nearly big enough.  ;)
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1558 on: January 08, 2019, 05:30:55 pm »

We Nikon enthusiasts should learn about video because the Z6/Z7 is bringing it on. I have worked with video for years, first with the Sony FS-700 with 4K raw enabled exporting to the Convergent Design 7Q and currently with the Sony FS5 and exporting raw to the Atomos Shogun Inferno, both cameras providing 4K raw in different formats. Because of the above cameras I did not take Nikonís video seriously until the Nikon Z6/Z7, which will work with the Atomos recorders, even the Inferno that I already have.

And the Atomos devices solve a big problem for DSLRs and Mirrorless cameras: sound. The Atomos devices totally handle XLR input and record sound as well as video. Iím even considering selling my Sony FS5 and using the Nikon Z7 for video, but Iím not quite there yet.
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D Fuller

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1559 on: January 08, 2019, 08:56:40 pm »

Where dids you see that the RAW video support is 10-bit? I'm not doubting that it is - but that's an even bigger deal than if it's 8-bit... I don't think any other primarily still camera does RAW video at all? The Gh5 and GH5s don't, and that would be my go-to "if anyone did..." for video features. It's quite possible, since the $1295 Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera does RAW video - it can't possibly have much more processing power and output bandwidth than the Nikons.

I havenít been able to find an official Nikon announcement on this, but I canít imagine them reducing the Zís bit depth for raw output. ProRes Raw, which is (according to the Nikonrumor article) what theyíre using, is capable of carrying a full 4:4:4 16-bit signal, so to do anything less than the 10-bit 4:2:2 signal theyíre already outputting would be silly. And, given that Nikon understood that outputting a log file with less than 10 bits was not a good idea, I canít see them doing that for a raw file.

As far as I know, youíre right about this being the only still-primary camera that will output a raw signal. And, given that, Iím very interested to know just how ďrawĒ it will be. Iíve shot motion on Red cameras since 2007. For Redcode raw files, raw means the undebayered sensor data, compressed. Everythingóeven ISOóis metadata and can be changed in post. Still cameras donít work that way, and thereís a lot yet to be known about Nikonís raw implementation. It will be interesting to see just what they do deliver for a raw format.
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