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Author Topic: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.  (Read 108448 times)

RSL

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #780 on: June 23, 2018, 08:00:55 pm »

I am just quoting a scientific study and you raise some more phony issues and worthless posts.  If you don't like a post, refute it with some facts and not just troll posts that are directed at me.  If you want me to call you out on it every time I will do so.  BTW, I'm well above sea level where I live so I'm not terribly worried about how much the ocean rises.

Well, Alan, I raised a true history of a situation just as "scientific" as your study. Glad to hear you're well above sea level, but if we get the "25% increase in water level" you mentioned you're probably going to need at least a boat, if not an ark. The only thing posing as a "fact" in your post is your statement (taken from a "paper") that "Loss of ice reduces the weight of the continent and as a result 'may' lead to a 25% increase in water levels in the northern hemisphere." That's not a "fact." It's what in the military we used to call a "WAG," otherwise known as a wild-assed guess.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #781 on: June 23, 2018, 08:42:51 pm »

There is no such things as "...a 25% increase in water levels in the northern hemisphere..."  That sound horrible. Does that mean that if the depth is 1000 feet, the ocean level will rise 25% or 250 feet? 

Of course not, but 25% sounds pretty bad.  I believe they meant to say  that whatever the increase is around the world, it would be 25% higher.  So if it goes up 4" around the world, then in the north it would go up to 5".  Now that doesn't sound so bad.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #782 on: June 23, 2018, 10:20:54 pm »

Russ and Alan win.  You have convinced me despite  my best efforts to just post articles that it's just not worth it.  Enjoy your stay on the Coffee Corner with the knowledge that Jeremy won't have to pester me any longer.  I wish I could say it has been fun but that would really be fake news.

Good by and good luck. It's over and out now.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #783 on: June 24, 2018, 04:21:33 am »

Hi Tim,

I think that scientists who specialize in oceanography have a decent idea about the amount of water on our planet.

However, the challenge is in figuring out the amount/mass of water that's in a frozen state on land. That's the amount that would be added to the water volume, plus that the land will rebound locally without the ice mass weighing it down thus leaving less room for water.

Add to that that water is at its densest at 4 degrees Celsius, so there will also be thermal expansion of that volume. In addition, white ice/snow surfaces reflect sunlight, but the darker landmass and water will absorb more heat and accelerate the warming.

Cheers,
Bart

Hi Bart,

I don't believe any oceanographer or scientist can measure exactly the amount of water in all the oceans on the planet considering constantly changing amounts of deposits from rainfall, rivers on land and underground aquifers. Some ocean areas are at least a mile deep and unexplored for measuring water amounts below the sea bottom.

Precision is needed seeing we can emulate quite precisely an extremely scaled down model of an ice cube placed in a glass of water often mentioned in the media as an example to explain displacement and expansion from melting ice caps. It's easy to measure weight, volume and dimensions of the water, the glass and the ice cube with a bit of math. But to scale up that model to global size leaves out way too much data known and unknown on an enormous scale in order to accurately trace back sea level rise causality across the globe.

Einstein used established building blocks of known data concerning constant conditions within the universe to formulate his theories as well as his thought experiments.

Measuring conditions that cause sea level rise is not a theoretical endeavor but yet we don't employ the same precision as Einstein where quite a few of his theories have been proven true.

I'm still not convinced we can accurately trace back causality of sea level rise to just one thing such as melting ice caps.
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RSL

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #784 on: June 24, 2018, 08:00:44 am »

Russ and Alan win.  You have convinced me despite  my best efforts to just post articles that it's just not worth it.  Enjoy your stay on the Coffee Corner with the knowledge that Jeremy won't have to pester me any longer.  I wish I could say it has been fun but that would really be fake news.

Good by and good luck. It's over and out now.

Well, I'm glad Jeremy won't be pestering you any longer, Alan, in spite of your "best efforts." And it's good of you not to post fake news.

 :o
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jeremyrh

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #785 on: June 25, 2018, 04:58:29 am »

Russ and Alan win.  You have convinced me despite  my best efforts to just post articles that it's just not worth it.  Enjoy your stay on the Coffee Corner with the knowledge that Jeremy won't have to pester me any longer.  I wish I could say it has been fun but that would really be fake news.

Good by and good luck. It's over and out now.

Quite a good example of how complete and utterly garbage, repeated over and over by people with a political agenda but no understanding of the actual issue  will drown out rational debate and install their nonsense as "truth". Now where else are we seeing that...?
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RSL

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #786 on: June 25, 2018, 09:13:12 am »

Quite a good example of how complete and utterly garbage, repeated over and over by people with a political agenda but no understanding of the actual issue  will drown out rational debate and install their nonsense as "truth". Now where else are we seeing that...?

Right, Jeremy, but you have to understand, this is the only thing the left can do. They don't grasp the actual issues, and if one of them actually grasps an issue he hasn't the foggiest idea what do do about it. It's all rote, echoed back from the playbook put out by the "media."
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Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #787 on: June 25, 2018, 04:16:30 pm »

"There's a compelling reason scientists think we've never found aliens, and it suggests humans are already going extinct"

Yup.  You got it.  No Martians to take to our leader because of human created climate change.
http://www.businessinsider.com/climate-change-great-filter-fermi-paradox-aliens-2017-7


Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #788 on: June 25, 2018, 06:18:31 pm »

As a leftist I liked the old leftist priority that demanded corporations stop polluting the air, land and water.

This climate change redirect as the new priority makes me sad and frustrated because it's such a huge target to overcome I don't see an end in sight.

At least with pollution I can sea a piece of land returned to its pristine condition, the air not making me want to hold my nose and force me to breath through my mouth and water that doesn't taste or smell odd.

Those were good times and honorable and doable goals.
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RSL

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #789 on: June 25, 2018, 07:47:52 pm »

Yes, it's a sad, sad world, Tim. Leftism isn't what it used to be. It's become a lot more vicious.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #790 on: June 25, 2018, 08:00:46 pm »

(The left) They don't grasp the actual issues, and if one of them actually grasps an issue he hasn't the foggiest idea what do do about it. It's all rote, echoed back from the playbook put out by the "media."

Right.  Got it.  Leftists are all idiots because they believe what they read, see and hear every day everywhere except on Fox News and Breitbart.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #791 on: June 25, 2018, 11:10:01 pm »

Yes, it's a sad, sad world, Tim. Leftism isn't what it used to be. It's become a lot more vicious.

Charlottesville.

Tossing paper towels at hurricane victims.

Using separation of families as deterrence.

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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #792 on: June 26, 2018, 02:42:10 am »

Charlottesville.

Tossing paper towels at hurricane victims.

Using separation of families as deterrence.

But Trump seems to be clumsily redefining leftist perceptions of right wing conservatism to make Republicans look cartoonish in order to get a lot of media attention or to just screw with our heads. It almost seems like he's distorting the traditional old style of governance and the Presidency to force us to view it through the lens of a reality TV show. A lot of his antics are so over the top tone deaf that it's becoming something more than what appears on the surface.

There's no consequences. No one is permanently damaged physically by what he does. I mean Melania wearing that coat with the statement..."I don't care. Do You?"...WTF?! Nothing rattles Trump except separating children from their illegal immigrant parents. He's getting far more media attention than Obama or any former President on immigration laws. That's a good thing. Were Ellis Island immigrants considered illegal when they got off the ship?

This is the first I've ever seen a standing US President act this way that I'm beginning to think maybe he just wants everyone to stop making such a big deal about every little move wrong or right a President makes isn't so politically Earth shattering. End the politically driven decisiveness and start fixing problems.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 02:45:54 am by Tim Lookingbill »
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Ray

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #793 on: June 26, 2018, 04:38:04 am »

I've been trying for some time to understand the psychology of apparently intelligent people who seem to accept so readily that the very small percentage of CO2 in our atmosphere, currently around 404 parts per million, could be a serious threat to the climate and our future well-being.

Those who have a basic understanding of science must surely appreciate that the enormous complexity and chaotic nature of our ecosystems, weather patterns and climate, and particularly the long periods of time involved before climate-change trends become apparent, make any sound predictions of future climate, outside the scope of the scientific methodology.

However, I'm not advocating that we shouldn't at least try to understand the processes that affect climate, even though it's too difficult to be certain about the role of one particular factor, such as a small increase in atmospheric CO2.

I recently came across the following scholarly paper which discusses the issue from a cultural perspective. Access is free.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1475-4959.2008.00266.x

I'll quote a few selected paragraphs to give you an idea of the issues addressed.

"Abstract
We are living in a climate of fear about our future climate. The language of the public discourse around global warming routinely uses a repertoire which includes words such as ‘catastrophe’, ‘terror’, ‘danger’, ‘extinction’ and ‘collapse’. To help make sense of this phenomenon, the story of the complex relationships between climates and cultures in different times and in different places is in urgent need of telling. If we can understand from the past something of this complex interweaving of our ideas of climate with their physical and cultural settings, we may be better placed to prepare for different configurations of this relationship in the future."

"Conventional attempts at conquering the climatic future all rely, implicitly or explicitly, upon ideas of control and mastery, whether of the planet, of global governance or of individual and collective behaviour. These attempts at ‘engineering’ future climate seem a degree utopian and brash. Understanding the cultural dimensions of climate discourses offers a different way of thinking about how we navigate the climatic future."

"Climate has always carried a precarious and ambiguous meaning for humans. Our physical evolution was forged through amplitudes of climate change – through dangerous encounters with climate – unknown to modern humans, while our cultural evolution has involved a variety of ways of mythologizing and taming the out‐workings of Nature's climate. The trail of the flood myth, for example, can be traced through many early cultures, most notably in the mono‐theistic tradition of the Biblical Flood of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The intimacy of relationship between culture and climate is nowhere better illustrated than in the case of Egypt and the Nile. The climatic pulsing of the river through annual and seven‐yearly cycles gave – and still gives – life, sustenance, shape and meaning to Nilotic cultures."

"Climate as judgement
Experiences of extreme weather have long been interpreted by individuals and cultures as signifiers of divine blessing or judgement (Glacken 1967; Boia 2005). The relationship between God and climate, especially drought, portrayed in the early Jewish scriptures makes very clear this particular reading of weather extremes, an interpretation of the capriciousness of climate that remained dominant in Western Europe through the later Middle Ages and well into the early modern period."

"Climate as pathology
The sustained European encounter with the tropics started in the sixteenth century and grew steadily during the imperial adventures of the nineteenth century. The experience of climates novel to Europeans was central to this encounter. Whilst these experiences laid to rest the classical fears of the torrid zone inducing human mutations, a new climatic pathology – a sense of the abnormal – was substituted. This pathology has been most clearly articulated using the lens of Victorian Britain and Empire by the cultural geographer David Livingstone in a series of articles over the last 20 years. Livingstone argues that the novel tropical climates encountered through European exploration and settlement, exactly because of their novelty and ‘otherness’, took on a pathological form. Attachments of fear, danger and foreboding to these climates easily followed, sentiments which had both physical and moral dimensions. In contrast to earlier pre‐Enlightenment narratives of fear about climate which arose from unknown causes, this new mentality was promoted through a fear of unknown climatic places."

"Climate as catastrophe
This brings us to an examination of our third discourse of fear and danger surrounding climate – the increasingly dominant portrayal of anthropogenic global climate change, or its avatar ‘global warming’, as global catastrophe. The early identification of the prospective human warming of global climate through releases of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere was rarely viewed as dangerous but, predominantly, as benign or beneficial. Thus, Arrhenius, writing in 1906, was able to state that global warming would allow future populations: 'to enjoy ages with more equable and better climates, especially as regards the colder regions of the earth, ages when the earth will bring forth much more abundant crops than at present for the benefit of rapidly propagating mankind."

"The contemporary discourse of climate catastrophe may also be tapping into a deeper and non‐negotiable human anxiety about the future, an anxiety which is merely attaching itself at the current time to the portended climates of the future – future climates offered up to society by the predictive claims of science. Science has never before offered such putative knowledge of the far future, complete with uncertainty ranges, tipping points and probabilities, and so our fragile and nervous human psyche has latched onto such pronouncements with vigour. ‘Today our expertise and our worries turn towards the weather because our industrious know‐how is acting, perhaps catastrophically, on global nature. Climate change provides a conduit, a lightening rod, for materialising our immaterial angst. Yearley (2006) explores these ‘phenomenology of nature’ worries as exemplified in Bill McKibbin's classic book The end of nature (McKibbin 1989), and as more recently articulated in Jules Pretty's series of essays, The Earth Only Endures."

I hope this post will help to clarify the issue for many readers.
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RSL

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #794 on: June 26, 2018, 07:00:54 am »

I've been trying for some time to understand the psychology of apparently intelligent people who seem to accept so readily that the very small percentage of CO2 in our atmosphere, currently around 404 parts per million, could be a serious threat to the climate and our future well-being.

It has nothing to do with science, Ray, and everything to do with politics.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #795 on: June 26, 2018, 07:32:41 am »

But Trump seems to be clumsily redefining leftist perceptions of right wing conservatism to make Republicans look cartoonish in order to get a lot of media attention or to just screw with our heads. It almost seems like he's distorting the traditional old style of governance and the Presidency to force us to view it through the lens of a reality TV show. A lot of his antics are so over the top tone deaf that it's becoming something more than what appears on the surface.

There's no consequences. No one is permanently damaged physically by what he does. I mean Melania wearing that coat with the statement..."I don't care. Do You?"...WTF?! Nothing rattles Trump except separating children from their illegal immigrant parents. He's getting far more media attention than Obama or any former President on immigration laws. That's a good thing. Were Ellis Island immigrants considered illegal when they got off the ship?

This is the first I've ever seen a standing US President act this way that I'm beginning to think maybe he just wants everyone to stop making such a big deal about every little move wrong or right a President makes isn't so politically Earth shattering. End the politically driven decisiveness and start fixing problems.


Maybe. That's a charitable point of view. Your last point is especially interesting, but there may be unintended (or intended) consequences anyway. It's possible to have a less benign view (https://www.newyorker.com/podcast/political-scene/a-government-takeover-by-the-ku-klux-klan), i.e., bad things can happen when you let repulsive or (just dumb) ideas loose. His bizarre trade war has real-world effects, as seen by Harley-Davidson's decision to possibly move production to other countries. I would not have thought that's what his base voted for.

One of http://thehill.com or http://politico.com (can't remember which) runs an occasional piece with titles like "Five things Trump did this week while you weren't looking", which is usually very interesting.


You made a point in a previous post about being uncomfortable with worrying about anthropogenic climate effects to the detriment of something we could do something about, like pollution. Like the economy in general, I don't believe that fixing problems is a zero-sum game. We can fix more than one problem at a time. But I do understand your concern on the pollution front. I still hear noises about relaxing pollution controls on automobiles to reduce "costs", a notion I personally find very bizarre (as a former motorsport participant) because the quality, reliability and performance of our cars have improved tremendously since adopting "clean air" regulations. Everyone has benefitted from that, not just "lefties". Why anyone would want to dial those back is hard for me to understand. As an another example, why is deregulation in the coal industry seen as a good thing? Black lung diseases is making a comeback, what's the upside of that. Is our (the royal we, I'm Canadian) culture really so self-centred that so long as OTHER people are dying we're ok with it as long as it improves our export stats.

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Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #796 on: June 26, 2018, 10:39:04 am »

But Trump seems to be clumsily redefining leftist perceptions of right wing conservatism to make Republicans look cartoonish in order to get a lot of media attention or to just screw with our heads. It almost seems like he's distorting the traditional old style of governance and the Presidency to force us to view it through the lens of a reality TV show. A lot of his antics are so over the top tone deaf that it's becoming something more than what appears on the surface.

There's no consequences. No one is permanently damaged physically by what he does. I mean Melania wearing that coat with the statement..."I don't care. Do You?"...WTF?! Nothing rattles Trump except separating children from their illegal immigrant parents. He's getting far more media attention than Obama or any former President on immigration laws. That's a good thing. Were Ellis Island immigrants considered illegal when they got off the ship?

This is the first I've ever seen a standing US President act this way that I'm beginning to think maybe he just wants everyone to stop making such a big deal about every little move wrong or right a President makes isn't so politically Earth shattering. End the politically driven decisiveness and start fixing problems.

Trump has no shame.  I agree with you on that.  He also has a lot of courage or doesn't give a damn about re-election or figures that it's more important to get things done the way he wants rather than just cozying up to the political class and getting pats on the back (notwithstanding his apparent need for plaudits.).  Most politicians would back off when they come under such enormous heat.  He relishes in it.  Maybe because he's been a businessman all his life, already made his mark,  and not in politics where talking out of both sides of your mouth is a favorite pastime.

But the things he's doing are not haphazard. Basically, he's carrying out what he said he would do during the campaign - very refreshing from a politician.  Since this is about climate change, I'll only mention related issues.  He said during the campaign that the Paris Accord was tilted against America and would damage the American taxpayer.  So he pulled out.  He said we have to cut regulations to help American coal, oil and gas carbon producers and open up other sources like off shore drilling.  He said he would re-start the Keystone XL pipeline from Canada. So that's what he did.  He said that the EPA was tilted toward climate change beliefs that were hurting us and should be changed.  So when he because president, he put in Pruitt in charge and started the reversal of many EPA policies. 

If you cut through all the media chatter, he's simply and clearly carrying out policies he said he would do.  His detractors may not like his policies, but the roadmap is available from the campaign. 


« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 10:42:30 am by Alan Klein »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #797 on: June 26, 2018, 10:51:04 am »

It has nothing to do with science, Ray, and everything to do with politics.
Depending on our own invincibility, self-reliance and intellect, we've also lost our trust in God to care for us. 

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #798 on: June 26, 2018, 03:25:05 pm »

... the quality, reliability and performance of our cars have improved tremendously since adopting "clean air" regulations.

"since" does not mean "because of".



Jeremy
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #799 on: June 26, 2018, 03:53:55 pm »

"since" does not mean "because of".



Jeremy

Modern engine electronic controls were introduced primarily because it was the best way of controlling engines in such a way to make them pollute less. It was also cheaper to build engines that way. As a happy consequence of that we have better cars. Of course better quality control played a role. But I don't it's correct to imply that there exists merely a correlation between anti-pollution efforts and better performance. They are not just points on a graph.
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