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Author Topic: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.  (Read 108471 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #720 on: June 19, 2018, 10:45:23 pm »

Hi Slobodan,

Are 'we' (barely) feeding (some of) them (for commercial motives), or nourishing them?

Cheers,
Bart
Bart, I don't even know what that means.  Could you explain it?

Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #721 on: June 19, 2018, 10:53:10 pm »

Regarding quality of food products, it's all about supply and demand like every other product.  Do you buy cheap Chinese stuff that falls apart sooner than later?  Or do you spend more money on better made products that last longer and work better?  The consumer drives the market.  If there wouldn't be a demand for cheaper food products, it wouldn't be produced.  When I buy bananas, I can spend $79 per pound for regular ones or $99 per pound for organically grown, supposedly healthier.  The point is there's more food available then ever before to feed the world.  Genetic engineering has a lot to do with that and we will adjust the quality of rice as CO2 levels go up so they provide the same, maybe better, nutritional value than before.

LesPalenik

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #722 on: June 19, 2018, 11:43:09 pm »

I'm not sure about the stated nutritional numbers.
Of course, organic produce from a local farmer should be healthier than similar produce trucked in from large agricultural operations in Arizona or California.
But I noticed that our supermarkets carry mainly pretty looking, long lasting, and in most cases, quite tasteless fruit and vegetables. Often, you don't have a choice between two or more kinds of peaches, nectarines, pears, and other fruit. Many younger consumers never had the pleasure to bite into a real apple or mango.
 
I've been often wondering about the differences in nutritional values, enzymes, and vitamins of various fruit. And what are the real numbers.
Most books keep publishing the same nutritional values, but the nutrients in a ripe organic apple must be quite different than in another apple that was picked green, ripened on the truck or in storage with ethylene gas, and coated with wax. Not mentioning differences between different varieties of the same fruit, and fruit grown in different climates. On most farms the soil is gradually being depleted and that would lower the nutritional values again.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #723 on: June 20, 2018, 12:08:01 am »

Les, It's hard to tell any longer what you're eating.  Food comes from all parts of the world today.  The negative is you don;t know what values are left in the product.  On the other hand, you can buy seasonable fruits and vegetables year around.  That's kinda nice.   At the end of the day, you're probably getting the vitamins and minerals and other stuff you need or you wouldn't be healthy or live as long as we do today.  My bigger problem is that I eat too much, especially carbs which I love, and I'm overweight. I seem not to be alone with that problem. 

LesPalenik

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #724 on: June 20, 2018, 12:12:58 am »

At the going rate, I suspect that we are getting fewer nutrients and more pesticides (sometimes even microplastics and antibiotics).
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #725 on: June 20, 2018, 09:00:34 am »

Do you buy cheap Chinese stuff that falls apart sooner than later?  Or do you spend more money on better made products that last longer and work better? 
Are not most iPhones made in China?
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #726 on: June 20, 2018, 09:32:28 am »

Bart, I don't even know what that means.  Could you explain it?

Do you understand the difference between 'food' and 'nutriment'?

Cheers,
Bart
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

RSL

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #727 on: June 20, 2018, 09:57:49 am »

I'm proud (I think) to note that this bullshit thread, which I started way back in April, now far exceeds the length of the other, similar bullshit threads. Keep it up, guys. We're setting new records daily.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #728 on: June 20, 2018, 10:13:06 am »

Do you understand the difference between 'food' and 'nutriment'?...

Great strategy, Bart!

Reminds me of the old joke:

A priest/imam/rabbi/ ask his faithfuls: "Do you know the story of the prophet X?"

The faithfuls: "No"

The priest: "Shame on you for not knowing it!"

Next time, he asks the same question: "Do you know the story of the prophet X?"

The faithfuls, cleverly answered: "Yes, of course!"

The priest: "Great! No need to tell you then."

A few weeks later, the same question: "Do you know the story of the prophet X?"

The faithfuls, even more clever this time: "Some of us do, some of us don't."

The priest: "Great! Those who do can then tell those who don't."

Ray

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #729 on: June 20, 2018, 10:29:05 am »

The goal of modern farming is to produce the maximum amount of food at the lowest cost, in order to be competitive in a free market.

It's probably true that much food grown in soil that gradually becomes depleted in micronutrients, trace elements, and beneficial soil microbes, as a result of regular tilling of the land, removal of biomass with each harvesting of the crop, and regular application of pesticides, and so on, contains smaller percentages of the nutrients essential for human health.

There have been a number of studies which suggest that the fruit and vegetables our grandfathers, or great grandfathers ate, had a much higher nutritional content than the food most of us eat today. However, the science is not very reliable because the testing procedures many decades ago were not as accurate as modern testing procedures (a bit like comparing past climates or past weather events with today's climate), and the variation of nutrient content in the same species of plant can vary enormously depending on so many factors, such as location, quality of soil, pH of the soil, application of which fertilizers and in what quantities, and so on.

The fertilizers which are most effective in increasing plant growth are Nitrogen, Potassium and Phosphorous. Applying these fertilizers to produce maximum growth, which farmers tend to do, can result in a 'dilution' effect with respect to the uptake of other minerals which are less essential for the plants' growth and are present in smaller quantities in the soil.

Carbon dioxide can also be considered a fertilizer which increases plant growth and also results in a dilution effect with respect to the uptake of certain micronutrients which might not exist in the soil in sufficient quantities for the percentages in the plant to remain as high as they would with slower growth.

However, generally, the quantity of these micronutrients and trace elements in the food crop is still higher, in absolute terms. In other words, if a doubling of CO2 results in a 30% increase in crop biomass, the increase in elements such as zinc, iron and copper might be only 20%, but still greater in terms of absolute quantity than in the crop grown without the increase in CO2.

A solution to this problem is not to reduce atmospheric CO2, nor to reduce the application of fertilizers so that crop growth is less, but to increase the application of the scarce minerals and trace elements such as magnesium, sulfur, boron, iron, manganese, zinc, copper, molybdenum, nickel, selenium, and so on, if they are found to be lacking.

Another solution, which some farmers have already adopted, is to change farming techniques, avoid tilling the soil, which disrupts the natural biodiversity of the soil, and leave the residue of the previous crop in the soil, allowing it to gradually decompose and provide nutrients for the next crop.

No-till farming can also sequester carbon in the soil, so climate change alarmists should be overjoyed with this technique.  ;D

"Climate change benefits
The benefits in reducing farming's global warming footprint are immense. Fuel costs saved by running the tractor less, one estimate suggests, no-till can reduce fuel usage by as much as 80 percent. In addition to the reduced carbon emissions from mechanical equipment used in no-till farming, there are several other benefits to the environment. No-till farming, often when paired with crop covering (a technique in which a crop is planted for the express purpose of soil health), reduces carbon emissions through greater sequestration of carbon dioxide by the soil. Over half of the potential carbon sequestration from farmlands comes from conservation tillage.
Carbon dioxide isn’t the only greenhouse gas reduced by no-till, the release of nitrous oxide, a very dangerous greenhouse gas, is also reduced through no-till. As more nitrogen is immobilized in the soil there is a reduced need for the application of nitrogen rich manure."


https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2016/06/02/no-till-agriculture-offers-vast-sustainability-benefits-so-why-do-organic-farmers-reject-it/
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #730 on: June 20, 2018, 10:40:23 am »

... There have been a number of studies which suggest that the fruit and vegetables our grandfathers, or great grandfathers ate, had a much higher nutritional content...

When they had a chance to eat. Just ask the Irish.

PeterAit

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #731 on: June 20, 2018, 11:36:22 am »

Look out, RSL, here comes another chunk of sky falling down on all of us.

https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/antarctica-melting-faster-we-knew-here-s-what-it-will-ncna884636
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RSL

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #732 on: June 20, 2018, 12:16:59 pm »

Better get a boat, Peter. You can hide under it until the water arrives.
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Ray

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #733 on: June 20, 2018, 07:24:13 pm »

When they had a chance to eat. Just ask the Irish.

That's true, but let's not confuse two separate issues, Slobodan; the nutritional quality of the food and the distribution of the food.
The absurd notion, that seems to be suggested by the AGW alarmists, is that enhanced crop growth due to elevated levels of CO2 is to be avoided and that it is better to produce smaller quantities of food that might contain slightly higher nutrients, by removing the fertilization effect of CO2.

If one accepts that argument, then why not reduce the application of all fertilizers that are effective in enhancing crop growth. Worldwide food production might halve, the food would be more expensive but more nutritious, and there'd be a huge increase in the number of starving people.

That doesn't sound like a sensible idea. It would be far better to exploit the benefits of elevated levels of CO2, as we exploit the benefits of artificial fertilizers, and add the additional nutrients to the soil which are found to be lacking, and/or take vitamin supplements.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #734 on: June 21, 2018, 04:35:51 am »

The absurd notion, that seems to be suggested by the AGW alarmists, is that enhanced crop growth due to elevated levels of CO2 is to be avoided and that it is better to produce smaller quantities of food that might contain slightly higher nutrients, by removing the fertilization effect of CO2.

Is anyone suggesting that? Or did you just invent it?
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Ray

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #735 on: June 21, 2018, 07:08:46 am »

Is anyone suggesting that? Or did you just invent it?

My impression is there are lots of people who want to reduce CO2 levels despite the undeniable fact that elevated levels of CO2 enhance crop growth. Didn't you know that?  ;)

The alarmists tend to present negative arguments that they hope will cancel the positive effects of increased crop growth, such as increased competition from increased weed growth, increased insect attacks, lower nutrition of the harvested crops, and so on.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #736 on: June 21, 2018, 07:43:07 am »

My impression is there are lots of people who want to reduce CO2 levels despite the undeniable fact that elevated levels of CO2 enhance crop growth. Didn't you know that?  ;)

Not the same thing.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #737 on: June 21, 2018, 08:30:12 am »

My impression is there are lots of people who want to reduce CO2 levels despite the undeniable fact that elevated levels of CO2 enhance crop growth. Didn't you know that?  ;)

Ray, I hate to keep calling you out about this statement but it bears repeating that enhanced plant growth is meaningless without improved nutrient production.  We are not animals who can convert cellulose to sugar for further metabolism so if the plant growth is solely biomass it is near worthless to humans.  Enhanced CO2 may also lead to increased growth of weeds that compete with food crops for nutrients and may necessitate increased use of herbicides.  We know that CO2 is necessary for plant growth but in isolation, the statement that higher levels are good is near worthless.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #738 on: June 21, 2018, 09:05:22 am »

Ray, I hate to keep calling you out about this statement but it bears repeating that enhanced plant growth is meaningless without improved nutrient production.  We are not animals who can convert cellulose to sugar for further metabolism so if the plant growth is solely biomass it is near worthless to humans.  Enhanced CO2 may also lead to increased growth of weeds that compete with food crops for nutrients and may necessitate increased use of herbicides.  We know that CO2 is necessary for plant growth but in isolation, the statement that higher levels are good is near worthless.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11655-climate-myths-higher-co2-levels-will-boost-plant-growth-and-food-production/
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #739 on: June 21, 2018, 09:38:49 am »

Is anyone suggesting that?...

Well, Jeremy, Alan G. just did: “... enhanced plant growth is meaningless...”

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