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Author Topic: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.  (Read 108396 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #360 on: May 21, 2018, 12:04:40 pm »

another false analogy.   Look at the savings from hybrid vehicles that use less gasoline and cost 1/4 of a Tesla
You're not going to save money buying a Tesla. The initial cost is too high.

You do save money probably driving a car like a Prius. But you are spending 10 or $15,000 for Batteries instead of getting luxury features. If I really wanted to save money, I would sell my cars and take public transportation. But driving has its own reward just from driving. It's a pleasure to drive. I'm not looking to save money. Performance and features are more important to me then saving a few cents by driving a hybrid that's ugly as sin.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #361 on: May 21, 2018, 12:23:38 pm »

another false analogy.   Look at the savings from hybrid vehicles that use less gasoline and cost 1/4 of a Tesla

What analogy? I didn’t make any, just a simple observation about the broader cost of something that is supposed to be saving.

Savings from hybrids? Every time I looked into hybrids, that math did not work. The number of years and the number of miles needed just to break even because of their initial higher price tag didn’t make sense for me (your hybrid mileage might vary, of course). And that math didn’t even include the price of the battery that needed to be changed after several years.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #362 on: May 21, 2018, 01:02:14 pm »

You're not going to save money buying a Tesla. The initial cost is too high.

You do save money probably driving a car like a Prius. But you are spending 10 or $15,000 for Batteries instead of getting luxury features. If I really wanted to save money, I would sell my cars and take public transportation. But driving has its own reward just from driving. It's a pleasure to drive. I'm not looking to save money. Performance and features are more important to me then saving a few cents by driving a hybrid that's ugly as sin.
you can only forsake a car where there is sufficient public transit.   We are in San Sebastian Spain right now and every place is either v walkable or by bus/ taxi.   Of course it's a small city.   I think where you live in NJ it would be difficult to b not have a car.   The same goes for me in Bethesda.   When I was working I never drove;  walked to the subway and was at work,  total time 35 minutes combined.

Texas are hugely expensive and we have no clue whether the venture won succeed.   There is probably greater potential for success in China.   Berkshire Hathaway has a large stake in a Chinese battery plant.   I saw some comments on this from Charlie Muncher at the recent annual meeting.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #363 on: May 21, 2018, 03:51:25 pm »

you can only forsake a car where there is sufficient public transit.   We are in San Sebastian Spain right now and every place is either v walkable or by bus/ taxi.   Of course it's a small city.   I think where you live in NJ it would be difficult to b not have a car.   The same goes for me in Bethesda.   When I was working I never drove;  walked to the subway and was at work,  total time 35 minutes combined.

Texas are hugely expensive and we have no clue whether the venture won succeed.   There is probably greater potential for success in China.   Berkshire Hathaway has a large stake in a Chinese battery plant.   I saw some comments on this from Charlie Muncher at the recent annual meeting.

I lived in NYC (Queens), a place with wonderful public transportation,  most of my life and would never give up a private automobile.  There are often times and weather conditions that make driving easier than buses and trains.  Who wants to wait at a bus stop in a rain storm?  Also, when you want to get out of the city to explore and photograph places like the Catskills, or just go on a road trip for the day, well a car is just one of those pleasures in life.  When I shoot with my MF equipment, it's just too heavy to transport on a bus.  I leave it in the trunk of car to use on a minutes notice.  Anyway, who doesn't just like the new car smell when you climb in?

Ray

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #364 on: May 21, 2018, 09:34:15 pm »

You're trying to wriggle out of it, but it still doesn't make sense.

Really! So you disagree with my description of the scientific methodology; the necessity for verification under controlled conditions, and the creation of experiments designed to reveal the falsity of the theories under examination, before reasonable certainty can be achieved?

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With complex dynamics, it is customary to make models that allow testing of those interactions without having to wait for them to happen. The procedure/model is peer reviewed and if almost all others arrive at the same conclusions, and find that the model is adequate, there emerges a consensus about the findings.

Bart, I'm amazed that you seem to be in denial of the importance of the scientific methodology. Can you not see the contradiction in your above statement? You claim it is customary to make models that project results, without having to wait for them to happen, then you go on to say if most others find that the model is accurate, a consensus emerges about the findings.

How on earth can you determine that the models are accurate without waiting for the projected results to happen? It sounds to me that you are the one who is trying to wriggle out.  ;)

This principle is fundamental to the scientific methodology. One creates a hypothesis based upon the available evidence. One sets up experiments under controlled conditions, and models to predict what will happen with a change of one or more variables, then one not only has to wait the appropriate period of time to see if the models' predictions are correct, but one has to have the capacity to observe the results.

For example, a few decades ago, models predicted that the expansion of the universe is slowing down. I think there was a consensus among astrophysicist that this was the case, which included the late Stephen Hawking.
However, when we developed the capacity to observe the outer reaches of the universe with the advanced Hubble telescope, scientists were amazed to discover the the expansion of the universe appeared to be accelerating; the opposite of what the models predicted.

When this sort of thing happens there are often many possible explanations. The models could be flawed. The theories on which the models were based could be flawed. The observations could be misinterpreted. Undetectable or unknown factors could be influencing the results.

In the case of the observed acceleration of the expansion of the universe, it is the latter explanation which has gained the largest consensus, that is, the possible existence of huge quantities of Dark Matter and Dark Energy which are invisible and undetectable.
However, no-one has yet detected a single particle of Dark Matter. Here is a recent article describing the problem.
https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/dark-energy-may-not-exist

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Exactly what they say in the report, that the (historical) data is lacking in some respects (e.g. measuring location had to be moved due to rising water levels, or urbanisation coming too close to avoid interference, or no prior measuring point available but now a new point has been made available for improved coverage and data quality going forward). Sometimes a new method of data collection is replacing a less accurate method. So there is no longer an exact 1:1 relationship between historical measuring locations and new measuring locations in the same area. That's all.

That's all?? Of no great consequence?? Crikey!  ;D

Isn't it obvious that any certainty about the catastrophic effects of increased CO2 levels has to be based on very accurate records from the past and the present. If such accurate records don't exist, for whatever reason, then certainty cannot exist, from a scientific perspective.

Of course, certainty can always exist from a purely emotional perspective, as in a religious belief, but we're talking about science here, aren't we?

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Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #365 on: May 21, 2018, 10:17:47 pm »

It is because I say it is. 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #366 on: May 22, 2018, 06:32:16 am »

How on earth can you determine that the models are accurate without waiting for the projected results to happen?

By using past observations. If the model doesn't fit the historical observations, it's not a good model.

Really Ray, you actually managed to disappoint me by not getting that simple fact, and the expectations were already modest.

Obviously (?), future (more) controlled measurements, and peer review, will be used to fine-tune the initial hypothesis, and new measurements will be used to verify whether the actual observations agree with the modeled expectations, and to hone in on the relative weightings of the variables/inputs. But even if a mismatch with later observations is detected, one still needs past/historical data to make sure that adjustments to the models don't break the accuracy of the model for that historical data.

It's easy enough to come up with a new calculation that better fits the more recent data, but that potentially carries the risk of 'overfitting' the model if it doesn't work on the historical data anymore. The historical data is also the foundation from which the model parameters are derived, with a method called Principle Component Analysis (PCA).

To recap, models are based on prior observations, and then refined over time as new and possibly more accurate data becomes available.

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This principle is fundamental to the scientific methodology. One creates a hypothesis based upon the available evidence.

Exactly. Historical records are the basis of a model. Waiting for future events to happen only creates better hindsight.

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One sets up experiments under controlled conditions, and models to predict what will happen with a change of one or more variables, then one not only has to wait the appropriate period of time to see if the models' predictions are correct, but one has to have the capacity to observe the results.

Wrong, which explains your confusion. One doesn't model to predict. Instead, the new observations have to fit the model that was already made. The better the quality of the historical data (= Confidence level) upon which the model was created, the better the future fit for new data should be, which will be verified when that future arrives. If necessary, the model will be fine-tuned, as they usually are, and sometimes one even detects that the collection of new data is creating drift or inaccuracy itself, versus the model.

A recent example is the measurement of surface temperatures from satellites, which contradicted the model that was based on more sparse actual surface measurements. The satellites showed temperatures that increased less than the model suggested they would. It turned out to be caused by the satellites gradually measuring at a later time during the afternoon, when, duh, the temperatures were lower than measurements taken at an earlier moment of the day would have shown. After correction for that time of measurement, the model proved to be even more accurate ...

Cheers,
Bart
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #367 on: May 22, 2018, 07:28:21 am »

By using past observations. If the model doesn't fit the historical observations, it's not a good model..l

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Bart!

My whole life I’ve been trying to find the secret to investing and getting rich. I tried various investment models, in vain. Turns out, as you rightly stated, all it takes is that the model fits the past. Off I go to become a billioner investor. Along the way, I’ll discard the disclaimer on every investment prospesctus, you know, that stupid warning, how “past results do not guarantee future returns.”

LesPalenik

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #368 on: May 22, 2018, 08:29:04 am »

Speaking about investments:
Bitcoin Mining Now Consuming More Electricity Than 159 Countries. Estimated global mining costs: $1.5 billion USD.

https://powercompare.co.uk/bitcoin/
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #369 on: May 22, 2018, 08:34:47 am »

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Bart!

You're welcome, Slobodan.

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My whole life I’ve been trying to find the secret to investing and getting rich. I tried various investment models, in vain. Turns out, as you rightly stated, all it takes is that the model fits the past. Off I go to become a billioner investor. Along the way, I’ll discard the disclaimer on every investment prospesctus, you know, that stupid warning, how “past results do not guarantee future returns.”

Let me help you a bit with that one as well. It's called Psychology, not Economy.

Current stock prices are only partly based on historical data, but mostly on managed expectations of future events. The more your expectations are managed by people/ organizations/data that you do not have access to, the lower the prospect of you benefitting from it (unlike those who were managing your expectations).

Before the financial crisis of 2008, I used to manage my own stock portfolio, and made between 25% and 34% annual profits (in cash, because I day-traded (because human psychology/impulses changes behavior so rapidly). I remember that the moment I saw the World-Trade center tragedy unfolding in 2001, the moment that I saw the second plane hitting the towers, I cashed in my full stock portfolio. I repurchased some of that stock at the moment it seemed to have reached it's lowest point, because (since people tend to over-react), it was likely to bounce back a bit (and I was ready to sell again when that had happened). Some clever modeling on prior data made that timing easier.

So my model based on historical observations worked. Then as a new reality emerged, I fine-tuned my hypothesis which still worked (because people fall into the same traps all the time). So when things started disintegrating in 2007/2008, I again sold my entire stock portfolio, and thus again missed the dive to new lows. I've not been directly investing in stock since then, because the system became even more rigged than before (by expectations managers who saw an opportunity to benefit from other's trying to recover from their losses), and it became more of a gamble than it made sense to me to risk losing it.

But, except for the role of psychology, we're drifting off topic, so I'll leave it at that.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 08:48:12 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #370 on: May 22, 2018, 08:41:28 am »

Speaking about investments:
Bitcoin Mining Now Consuming More Electricity Than 159 Countries. Estimated global mining costs: $1.5 billion USD.

https://powercompare.co.uk/bitcoin/

Yes, yet another hype that's also costing most others more (in pollution) than those who have designed it to benefit from it (financially) in the short term.

It's psychology unleashed. A form of FOMO (fear of missing out) in practice.

And, BTW, there is a model as well that suggests (with Low Confidence, due to missing data, but with High Likelihood, due to the maximum of mineable coins) when the hype will plateau.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 08:51:59 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Ray

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #371 on: May 22, 2018, 08:51:16 am »

By using past observations. If the model doesn't fit the historical observations, it's not a good model.

Really Ray, you actually managed to disappoint me by not getting that simple fact, and the expectations were already modest.

Excellent! You have now admitted (perhaps unwittingly  ;D ) that climate models are deeply flawed because we don't have a sufficient quantity and quality of historical observations on which to base the models. We're not even sure if major events such as hurricanes and floods have been increasing during the past 50 years, on a global scale.

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Wrong, which explains your confusion. One doesn't model to predict.

Really! I didn't know that. Please explain how the predicted harmful effects of rising CO2 levels are made without the use of models. I'm all ears. I hope you are not trying to wriggle out by trying to make a distinction between 'prediction' and 'projection'.  ;)

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Instead, the new observations have to fit the model that was already made. The better the quality of the historical data (= Confidence level) upon which the model was created, the better the future fit for new data should be, which will be verified when that future arrives.

Well done! The model has to be verified when the future arrives, and verified continuously and consistently, numerous times, over a long period of perhaps 100 years in the case of climate. That's a necessary part of the scientific methodology. Even then, a climate model which has appeared to be successful for many decades, might begin to produce inaccurate projections because of some influence or forcings which the scientists were not aware of, or had not taken into consideration.

I'm glad we are now in agreement that climate models are difficult to verify and are basically beyond the methods of falsification because of the long time periods involved.  ;)

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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #372 on: May 22, 2018, 09:07:16 am »

Excellent! You have now admitted (perhaps unwittingly  ;D ) that climate models are deeply flawed because we don't have a sufficient quantity and quality of historical observations on which to base the models.

It saddens me that a (deliberate?) lack of reading comprehension must be added to your set of skills.

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Well done! The model has to be verified when the future arrives, and verified continuously and consistently, numerous times, over a long period of perhaps 100 years in the case of climate.

Wrong. Data has to be validated, and then compared to the model to see if it fits in the confidence range. If it does, then the confidence range becomes smaller, and the Likelihood of the model being able to forecast reliably increases. But I'm getting the feeling that it's falling on deaf ears, so I'll pass at explaining yet again.

Of course, the new data may lead to fine-tuning of a model, or to a reexamination of the data collection methods, or both.

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That's a necessary part of the scientific methodology.

A part of the method, maybe, but it is foolish to not act upon current knowledge because we may (or may not) gain better knowledge/insight in the future. The postponement may lead to passing irreversible triggerpoints in the mean time, a fools attitude when we only have 1 home planet to experiment with.

Cheers,
Bart
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RSL

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #373 on: May 22, 2018, 09:40:57 am »

Ray, you just don't get it, but Bart made it clear. This has nothing to do with data or with algorithms or projections. It has to do with faith. You're either a believer or an unbeliever (known to this religion as a "denier"). No amount of argument will change the faith of a believer like Bart. No obvious hole in the believer's arguments will be seen as a hole by the believer. We have millennia of evidence about this kind of devotion to religious dogma. Be careful. If you give true believers the equivalent of the idea that the earth rotates around the sun, you're liable to end up like Galileo.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #374 on: May 22, 2018, 10:15:27 am »

Here were the projected tracking models for Hurricane Sandy before it hit land.  Computer models had hundreds of past hurricanes to develop their algorithms. Yet, it's obvious, that everyone was still guessing.  How can we so sure about climate models when we have so few observations of past behavior from our current conditions?  I think that's the point Ray was making. 

Article extract, first paragraph: "BOSTON (CBS) – Our midday suite of weather models has made a dramatic shift in the ultimate track of Sandy, which officially became a hurricane late Wednesday morning. Nearly all now pull Sandy back westward, towards the East Coast early next week. Only a very few still kick Sandy out to sea.  This is an important development, but still, this far out in time and does not signify anything definite."

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/10/24/hurricane-sandy-new-england-likely-to-feel-some-effects/

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #375 on: May 22, 2018, 11:29:15 am »

Predicting climate change based on past data is like predicting winning lotto numbers based on those winning in the past.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #376 on: May 22, 2018, 12:27:57 pm »

Here were the projected tracking models for Hurricane Sandy before it hit land.

Climate Change is not Weather, but extreme weather (droughts and precipitation in different places) is made worse by Global Warming (or Cooling as some of the posters in this thread prefer to believe).

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How can we so sure about climate models when we have so few observations of past behavior from our current conditions?  I think that's the point Ray was making.

Climate Change is not Weather, how hard can it be to grasp ...

Since reason apparently has little to do with the denial, given all the evidence, it must be psychology. Cognitive dissonance, trading short term reward for longer term suffering (= Bad trade-off).

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 12:37:06 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #377 on: May 22, 2018, 12:35:46 pm »

Predicting climate change based on past data is like predicting winning lotto numbers based on those winning in the past.

Actually, in 1991 already, oil companies like Shell already told what would happen, and that was which are now becoming facts (not that those have made an impression on 'Deniers', sorry no better term for it). Not that those companies are in the crystal ball business, but maybe that makes them even better qualified ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VOWi8oVXmo

Cheers,
Bart
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Ray

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #378 on: May 22, 2018, 07:05:31 pm »

Ray, you just don't get it, but Bart made it clear. This has nothing to do with data or with algorithms or projections. It has to do with faith. You're either a believer or an unbeliever (known to this religion as a "denier"). No amount of argument will change the faith of a believer like Bart. No obvious hole in the believer's arguments will be seen as a hole by the believer. We have millennia of evidence about this kind of devotion to religious dogma. Be careful. If you give true believers the equivalent of the idea that the earth rotates around the sun, you're liable to end up like Galileo.

Russ,
I think I do get it. I'm partly, but not only, interested in the ways that climate alarmists try to wriggle out of the obvious situation of uncertainty about the possible negative effects of rising CO2 levels. It'll be interesting to see how they wriggle and squirm even more, should the climate begin a cooling trend in the next few years.  ;D

On the other hand, I do have some compassion for those scientists whose reputations might be shattered as a result of the wrong advice given to governments.

The following paper discusses the uncertainties about the causes and the extent of changes to the Great Barrier Reef in Australia, and argues for better quality control.
https://platogbr.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/larcombe-and-ridd-2018.pdf

"The connections between science and policy are complex. Although science forms only one of the wide range of inputs to policy-making (e.g. Fig. 1), a policy is likely to be worse if the science is itself less than credible and  defensible. Scientists play the key role of ensuring that this input is objective and of the highest quality, so that policy-makers and politicians alike can be best informed of the scope and strength of the knowledge and also, importantly, of the key uncertainties."

"Perhaps the most high-profile example of systemic failure comes from the biomedical sciences, where checks made on peer-reviewed science indicate that a large number of important papers are found to be wrong. Prinz et al. (2011) of the German drug company Bayer, writing in the journal ‘Nature Reviews Drug Discovery’ claimed that 75% of the literature used for potential drug discovery targets is unreliable."

“A rule of thumb among biotechnology venture-capitalists is that half of published research cannot be replicated. Even that may be optimistic. Last year, researchers at one biotech firm, Amgen, found they could reproduce just six of 53 “landmark” studies in cancer research. (The Economist, 19/10/2013)"

"The natural variability of the entire Great Barrier Reef system, coupled with the vast extent of the relevant components, which include river catchments through to the continental slope, means that scientists are forced to use indirect measures of the system (e.g. Laurance et al., 2011), or to perform analysis of datasets where complex statistical techniques are used to try and discern a weak signal from the background noise. Inevitably, this can leave considerable scope for misinterpretation of the data, and, we believe, risk an unwarranted level of significance being ascribed to the work."

"Duarte et al. (2015) noted:
“the marine research community may not have remained sufficiently skeptical in sending and receiving information on the problems caused by human pressures in the ocean” “that scientific skepticism has been abandoned or relaxed in many areas, which has allowed opinion, beliefs, and tenacious adherence to particular theories to play a major role in holding beliefs based on interpretations unsupported by evidence”.


"(Loehle, 1987)
-doom and gloom media accounts shows some—at times, severe—disconnect with actual observations.”

« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 07:54:37 pm by Ray »
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one iota

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #379 on: May 22, 2018, 10:29:45 pm »

The thing I find most interesting about this thread as a part time amateur psychologist is that some people "think" that they can over-turn science and reality with the force of their opinion on a photographic centric web site.

Anyone for Hubris?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 01:21:45 am by one iota »
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