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Author Topic: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.  (Read 38644 times)

RSL

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2018, 03:15:34 PM »

I want this thread closed down right now. Ray and I tried to keep this topic alive and failed.  Those who were responsible for the closing of that thread should not be allowed to raise the topic again. I'm completely serious about this!

Alan

Global warming's okay, eh Alan, but not global cooling?

Here are a couple references the global warmists might want to see. There are many more out there. Yes, I know, there's all sorts of "scientific evidence" on both sides of the question, including the horse hockey stick that sort of blew up in the faces of those who invented it.

http://thefederalist.com/2015/01/19/global-warming-most-dishonest-year-on-record/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2425775/Climate-scientists-told-cover-fact-Earths-temperature-risen-15-years.html

BartvanderWolf

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2018, 03:55:47 PM »





Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 04:01:33 PM by BartvanderWolf »
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RSL

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2018, 04:09:07 PM »

Right, Bart. What those graphs tell me is that we're still recovering from the little ice age. But I'd also be interested to know how we were gathering world-wide temperature data in 1880 compared with how we're gathering it now. Wouldn't you?

OmerV

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2018, 05:30:00 PM »

Right, Bart. What those graphs tell me is that we're still recovering from the little ice age. But I'd also be interested to know how we were gathering world-wide temperature data in 1880 compared with how we're gathering it now. Wouldn't you?

https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2540/tree-rings-provide-snapshots-of-earths-past-climate/

RSL

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2018, 06:00:51 PM »

Yeah, I know all about tree rings, Omer. I grew up in Michigan. But the question I wonder about is the relative accuracy of  methods. You can't measure current tree rings. They're still growing. In other words, I question the accuracy of any chart similar to the one Bart posted.

OmerV

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2018, 07:44:41 PM »

Yeah, I know all about tree rings, Omer. I grew up in Michigan. But the question I wonder about is the relative accuracy of  methods. You can't measure current tree rings. They're still growing. In other words, I question the accuracy of any chart similar to the one Bart posted.

Well okay. ;D

PS  Looked at your galleries on your web site. The Asian and Sixties sets are very nice.

RSL

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2018, 07:48:44 PM »

Thanks, my friend. All that stuff was done with film -- most of it with Leicas or with a Canon 7, which was a Leica knockoff. Loved those cameras.

LesPalenik

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2018, 07:56:54 PM »

As to the effects of the asteroids, pollution (of any kind - plastics, CO2, methane, ...) and overpopulation.
When it comes to the asteroid, we don't have any control, maybe there will be another big bang, but not anytime soon.
However, humanity facing the other two factors could be compared with the frog and slowly warming water in the pot where it is sitting. Comfy, not complaining, and surprisingly not doing anything to prevent the ugly outcome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APxGubAkOz0

One would think that humans are smarter than frogs.

Ray

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2018, 09:21:17 PM »

I want this thread closed down right now. Ray and I tried to keep this topic alive and failed.  Those who were responsible for the closing of that thread should not be allowed to raise the topic again. I'm completely serious about this!

Alan

Alan,
Perhaps the discussion should be directed towards the fundamental requirements of the scientific methodology before a degree of certainty about an issue can be achieved, so that those who don't have a scientific background might learn something.  ;)

For example, there seems to be a lot of confusion about the significance of the DXOMark measurements regarding camera noise. However, those who possess a reasonable amount of scientific competence should be able to carry out their own tests, comparing different models of cameras, shooting the same scene under the same lighting conditions, then comparing the results. That's a relatively easy problem to solve.

However, whenever there is a huge number of variables that can have an effect, and relatively long time-spans are involved before a significant effect occurs, there has to be a degree of scientific uncertainty.

Those who create certainty in such circumstances are either delusional or have their own non-scientific agenda, in my opinion.
A good analogy, with similar complexity to the climate change issue, is the effect of factors such as diet, exercise and pharmaceutical drugs on human health.

We can be certain about the immediate effects of certain drugs because the effects can be observed within hours, days, or weeks. However, long term negative effects are much less certain.

Likewise with certain health foods, supplements, and herbs. Their beneficial effects can take many years before they become apparent, and even then one cannot be sure to what extent other factors in one's lifestyle have contributed to the effect.
For example, how does one determine with scientific certainty that taking Resveratrol supplements will prolong one's life? Experiment with short-life creatures such as mice?

Consider the continuing confusion about the benefits of excluding saturated fats from one's diet. In order to be scientifically certain about the issue one would need to conduct long-term experiments under controlled conditions, which is virtually impossible with humans. The closest we might get is to recruit a number of twins at an early age, and persuade them to lead, as far as possible, an identical lifestyle, with the exception that one of the twins eats a fat-free diet, and the other twin includes all natural, saturated fats in his/her diet, such as pure butter, full cream yoghurt and milk, grass-fed beef, coconut oil, and so on.

However, even with such a relatively controlled experiment, it would be necessary to ensure that the part of the diet of each twin which included either saturated fats, or fat-reduced food, contained the same calorific value, otherwise one of the twins could become overweight, which could affect the health outcomes, and introduce other variables. In other words, both twins would be eating the same amount of vegetables and other healthy foods, but the twin who included saturated fat in his diet might drink just half a bottle of full cream milk for every full bottle of fat-reduced milk drunk by the other twin.

If the thread is closed down, I would request that it not be removed, so that those with an inquiring mind might learn from my words of wisdom.  ;D


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LesPalenik

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2018, 10:19:34 PM »

Ray, as you say it's dificult to draw any reliable conclusions of isolated dietary studies with small samples. Even your hypothetical example with twins is not infallible, since there can still be multiple differences between the twins and their lifestyles (i.e. one lives in a house with hardwood floor and windows that can be opened, with a friendly and accommodating wife, whereas the other lives in an apartment building with sealed windows and thick broadloom, and went through three unhappy marriages).   

However, when comparing larger studies, i.e. effect of dairy intake in Scandinavia or New Zeeland, it becomes quickly obvious that the harmful ingredients in milk have some effect on bone health.
Sweden - annual dairy consumption 355 kg and 802 bone fractures,
Denmark - 295 and 853,
Norway - 261 and 563, 
Finland - 361 and 440,
New Zeeland - 110 and 288
Mexico - 155 and 169
 
In Far East Asia, the results are even more pronounced:
Thailand - 22 and 7 ?!
China - 29 and 97
the more affluent Asian countries showing slightly higher numbers:
Japan - 93 and 266
South Korea - 71 and 266

https://www.nature.com/bonekeyreports/2016/160629/bonekey201630/fig_tab/bonekey201630_T1.html

Similarly, the very large "China Study" established a long time ago the beneficial effect of plant-based diet and harmful effects of animal protein. They found that average blood cholesterol levels in rural China (127 mg/dl) were far lower than in the USA (215 mg/dl) and the death rate from coronary heart disease was 17 times lower in rural Chinese men than among American men.

So the problem is not necessarily the diffifulty in obtaining the data, but rather the deep pockets of dairy, pharma, and meat industries, who pay for and promote their selective studies and agenda. Not unlike the tobacco industry did before them. 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 10:55:39 PM by LesPalenik »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2018, 11:51:22 PM »

I want this thread closed down right now...

And I want a million dollars... scratch that, a couple of millions... right now!  ;)

Kevin Gallagher

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2018, 07:41:53 AM »

 How does it feel to want??
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Kevin In CT
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Kevin Gallagher

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2018, 07:45:35 AM »

I want this thread closed down right now. Ray and I tried to keep this topic alive and failed.  Those who were responsible for the closing of that thread should not be allowed to raise the topic again. I'm completely serious about this!

Alan

BTW, I forgot, AWWWWWW how terrible for you!
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Kevin In CT
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LesPalenik

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2018, 07:48:15 AM »

How does it feel to want??

Have you tried asking Alexa?

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2018, 08:00:59 AM »

And I want a million dollars... scratch that, a couple of millions... right now!  ;)
And this highlights the folly of trying to get any semblance of intelligent discussion on this thread.  Your snarky comments now are no different than when we had the previous thread.
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HSakols

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2018, 08:43:50 AM »

Quote
You can't measure current tree rings. They're still growing. In other words, I question the accuracy of any chart similar to the one Bart posted.

Yes, you can if you collect a core sample.  You also can core trees that have been dead.
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RSL

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2018, 08:44:46 AM »

As to the effects of the asteroids, pollution (of any kind - plastics, CO2, methane, ...) and overpopulation.
When it comes to the asteroid, we don't have any control, maybe there will be another big bang, but not anytime soon.
However, humanity facing the other two factors could be compared with the frog and slowly warming water in the pot where it is sitting. Comfy, not complaining, and surprisingly not doing anything to prevent the ugly outcome.

You may have a hard time believing this, Les, but I agree with you. The only problem is that I don't believe eschewing plastic on an individual basis is going to solve the problem, or even make a dent in it. It's a political problem, and an international political problem. The only way to force a solution would be to invade and conquer the world. And even then there are interests who'll always fight a solution, because a solution would cost them money. In the end I suspect that as has been the case with most worldwide problems -- Hitler comes to mind -- we'll have to wait until we're faced with a catastrophe before we'll act.

RSL

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2018, 08:48:22 AM »

And this highlights the folly of trying to get any semblance of intelligent discussion on this thread.  Your snarky comments now are no different than when we had the previous thread.

Alan, why don't you quit while you're ahead? Well, I guess you're not ahead. But at least you can still quit before all is lost.

Chairman Bill

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2018, 09:21:17 AM »

Let's just ignore what climatologists and other experts tell us. Let's just ignore the data & the explanations to account for it. What do these so-called 'experts' know anyway? I read something on the interwebz that reinforces my point-of-view, so however uncomfortable the facts are I'm going to deny them and instead grasp at any counter-claim as firm evidence that the matter is just a conspiracy by somebody. So there.

I'm fed up with science denialists, so how about we get back to photography? At least that's something we can all agree about. And Nikon is better than Sony or Canon.

RSL

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Re: Global Cooling. The sky is falling.
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2018, 09:27:09 AM »

I'm fed up with science denialists, so how about we get back to photography? At least that's something we can all agree about. And Nikon is better than Sony or Canon.

Well, at least we can agree about Nikon.

Who are the science denialists Bill? Are those the people who didn't buy the "scientific" horse-hockey stick.
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