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Author Topic: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe  (Read 1920 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2018, 12:07:07 PM »

Thank you, Jeremy!

I guess the modern era of nanosecond-attention span induced knee-jerk reaction that goes like this: European Union (authority!) bans pesticides (horror!) to save bees (cute!). Who wouldn't agree with that?

And once again the law of unintended consequences and the related miopia of isolating issues from their context and environment.

RSL

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Re: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2018, 12:08:13 PM »

Please show us how those who would like to limit plastic trash are more selfish than the plastics industry who resist at every turn limits on single-use "disposable" plastic items.

Also, please show us how concern for our environment is "hilarious".

Hi Peter,

First, your unsupported assertion that the "selfish" plastic industry "resists at every turn" limits on single-use" disposable plastic items" may be true, but just saying it doesn't make it true. When you make a statement like that you need to support it with at least some facts or it drifts off into the nether regions of pure speculation. That kind of thing becomes laughable to anyone equipped to think.

And I don't think your concern for "our environment" (surprised you didn't say "the planet") is hilarious. What I think is hilarious is the idea that if you abstain from using plastic you're actually making a noticeable contribution to cleaning up the planet. Oh, it may make you feel good about yourself. After all, you won't be contributing to the degradation of the planet. But it's unlikely your good-feeling plastic abstention is going to make any noticeable dent in the problem.

On the other hand you might start a Plastics Anonymous group that can get together and make speeches about their temptation to use plastics and subsequent abstention. You'll need councilors who'll keep members in line, and all that stuff.

But even that isn't going to solve the problem. If somebody in China starts a Plastics Anonymous group the whole bunch will be thrown into the hoosegow unless the "leadership" is pushing the idea. And they won't be.

I'd love to see dumping any kind of trash into the ocean stopped cold, but it probably ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes.

Rob C

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Re: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2018, 12:44:00 PM »

I'm not talking skill though.  I'm talking going to the store, buying some produce and just eating it. 

For some reason we insist on using so much fertilizers here, that the produce grows bigger then it naturally does.  Sure, you get more yield, but the flavor is so bland. 

We bought a quart of strawberries in France that were less then half the size they are here, but the flavor was so much better.

When we came here to live, '81,  we used to buy all our vegetables and fruit in the farmers' market, usually a Sunday event in our town. Some years later, another market was held on Wednesdays, in the sister town just about six clicks away. The same stalls mostly served both venues. My wife concluded that the stuff was more fresh on Sundays, so that's where we continued to shop. Of course, most of the produce was only what was in season, especially the fruit. Now, everything is always available, which means forced, under plastic, from the Spanish mainland, or imported, or local and just frozen and the first casualty is flavour. Apples have none at all, and strawberries are often huge, hard and just like water to the taste buds. It's all gone, lost to mechanised production and the benefits of Monsanto or whoever supplies the stuff that's sprayed onto everything in the name of gigantism which has come to signal better bargain!

Even red peppers have not been saved: some have started to be much larger and without flavour, the insides with masses of white mush growing on the struts. Yuck! One good thing about eating out is that one no longer sees this mess.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2018, 07:28:41 PM »

Hi Peter,

First, your unsupported assertion that the "selfish" plastic industry "resists at every turn" limits on single-use" disposable plastic items" may be true, but just saying it doesn't make it true. When you make a statement like that you need to support it with at least some facts or it drifts off into the nether regions of pure speculation. That kind of thing becomes laughable to anyone equipped to think.

I'm quite well equipped to think, thank you. I'm also quite well equipped to look things up. This took me about five seconds of search time:

https://www.sciencemi.org/politics/plastic-lobbyists-prevent-reducing-pollution/
https://www.alternet.org/environment/plastic-bag-lobby
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/laura-turner-seydel/powerful-lobbying-groups-want-to-make-sure-you-keep-using-plastic-bags_b_8307416.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/plastic-bag-ban-legal-victoria-1.4510936

Oh, and by the way, none of your recent assertions have been backed up with links of any kind.

ie pot/kettle.

Quote
What I think is hilarious is the idea that if you abstain from using plastic you're actually making a noticeable contribution to cleaning up the planet.

I've not seen a single reference in my posts to "abstaining" from plastics.  That would be not only unwise, but impossible.  I stated earlier that plastics are beneficial, even necessary today.  What I'm decrying (at the risk of repeating repeating repeating myself) is the use of disposable, single-use plastic items.  Note:  "disposable" is in italics, just in case you missed that.

 
Quote
Oh, it may make you feel good about yourself. After all, you won't be contributing to the degradation of the planet. But it's unlikely your good-feeling plastic abstention is going to make any noticeable dent in the problem.

No?  But what if a few million of us did?  Would that help?  How about a few hundred million?

Thank you for your unsubstantiated assertion that the only reason I decry single-use plastic items is because it makes me "feel good about myself". It reveals your worldview quite clearly.

Quote
On the other hand you might start a Plastics Anonymous group that can get together and make speeches about their temptation to use plastics and subsequent abstention. You'll need councilors who'll keep members in line, and all that stuff.

Very helpful to the discussion. Thank you for that, too.

Quote
I'd love to see dumping any kind of trash into the ocean stopped cold, but it probably ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes.

Nope.  You're right. Not in our lifetimes. But we're old. The youth will save our sorry asses, despite myopic, selfish "it's just business" attitudes.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2018, 10:22:41 PM »


There are good arguments that the dangers of neonicotenoids are very much overstated and that their use in the wild is vastly different from the environment used in  laboratory-based tests. It was the subject of a good deal of written debate a while ago, when the UK ban was introduced. I don't purport to be able to reach a conclusion, but it's misleading to suggest that there's a universal consensus.

See this, for example. From his other stuff (he has a weekly column in The Times), Ridley is a sensible chap.

Jeremy

OTH, other information suggests that the major issue with these pesticides is in fact not honey bees, but other insects that might be in the field.  A paper looking at this subject  concluded:  these systemic insecticides may also be harmful to natural enemies, including predators and parasitoids. Predatory insects and mites may be adversely affected by neonicotinoid systemic insecticides when they: (1) feed on pollen, nectar or plant tissue contaminated with the active ingredient; (2) consume the active ingredient of neonicotinoid insecticides while ingesting plant fluids; (3) feed on hosts (prey) that have consumed leaves contaminated with the active ingredient. Parasitoids may be affected negatively by neonicotinoid insecticides because foliar, drench or granular applications may decrease host population levels so that there are not enough hosts to attack and thus sustain parasitoid populations.

Most probably, other pesticides play also a role. Cuba which has no money for pesticides, has one of the healthiest bee populations, although I also heard some unconfirmed rumors from a local beekeper that lately (possibly due to the recent anti-Zika spraying), bees were dying there, too.  Anyway, the Cuban organic honey is still a highly sought commodity and 4th most important export product for Cuba.

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2018, 02:51:24 AM »

OTH, other information suggests that the major issue with these pesticides is in fact not honey bees, but other insects that might be in the field. 

But that's not the title you chose for the thread, is it?

I guess the modern era of nanosecond-attention span induced knee-jerk reaction that goes like this: European Union (authority!) bans pesticides (horror!) to save bees (cute!). Who wouldn't agree with that?

Hmm. See above.

Jeremy
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2018, 03:35:29 AM »

But that's not the title you chose for the thread, is it?

Jeremy

That's true, Jeremy. More often than not, these threads lead to previously unintended directions (which makes it sometimes more interesting).
What I meant, was that all pesticides create direct and indirect harm. Also my bee and flower picture in the OP, although not great photographically, was captioned with the words that the flower and bee were captured in a pristine natural area (free of any pesticides). While on that subject, it always seemed to me (and it might be only my imagination), that when I see and hear the bees buzzing around the wildflowers in the remote fields and meadows they seem to be happier, faster and louder than in the city parks.  Or maybe it's me who is happier in that environment.

tom b

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Re: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2018, 04:17:37 AM »

Not all bees are good for the environment they are in.

http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2012/09/18/3592865.htm

Cheers,
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Tom Brown

LesPalenik

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Re: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2018, 04:58:30 AM »

Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2018, 09:30:52 AM »

The more important question, of course, is this: Which will benefit or suffer more from the bee-killing pesticide ban, Nikon, Canon, Sony or Fuji?   8)
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-Eric Myrvaagnes (visit my website: http://myrvaagnes.com)

RSL

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Re: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2018, 09:49:29 AM »

Oh, and by the way, none of your recent assertions have been backed up with links of any kind.

ie pot/kettle.

What assertions are those, Peter?

Rob C

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Re: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2018, 10:41:50 AM »

The more important question, of course, is this: Which will benefit or suffer more from the bee-killing pesticide ban, Nikon, Canon, Sony or Fuji?   8)

Probably none: they are already, with a little added incest, screwing each other perfectly well without any help from the birds and bees.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2018, 11:52:29 AM »

What assertions are those, Peter?

Let's start with your statement that an asteroid strike is a greater threat to humanity than plastics pollution.
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RSL

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Re: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2018, 01:27:48 PM »

Let's start with your statement that an asteroid strike is a greater threat to humanity than plastics pollution.

That one really got you, eh Peter. Here's one reference to the history of asteroid strikes on the earth. https://whyfiles.org/106asteroid/2.html. There's a whole procession of them on Google if you want to take the trouble. Took me a long time to find your reference to my post way back at the beginning of the Microplastics thread -- not even in this thread. What I actually said was:

"I'm old enough to have seen this kind of doomsday crap over and over and over. We're still here. We'll probably still be here for a long time to come. A much more serious threat is something like an asteroid strike. But that's not a concern of left-wing politics, so nobody's hiding under the bed because of it."

I'll stand by what I said, and I'll duck for the asteroid strike while you're waiting for plastics to shut down the planet.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2018, 03:05:48 PM »

All of you would do well to read Margaret Atwood's 'Oryx and Crake' trilogy rather than posting ripostes on this topic.  You might gain a better appreciation for nature's delicate balance.
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Rob C

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Re: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2018, 03:48:50 PM »

All of you would do well to read Margaret Atwood's 'Oryx and Crake' trilogy rather than posting ripostes on this topic.  You might gain a better appreciation for nature's delicate balance.

Alan, man learns a lot about delicate natural balance by the changing functional abilities of the bits he often keeps in his pants. It's all a delicate balance, a dance even of mood, situation and peace of mind or good food, or even level of alcohol in his poor old battered system; why would one expect less/more of the other beasties in nature?

Rob

donbga

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Re: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2018, 09:23:44 AM »

European Union countries voted on Friday in favour of a near-total ban on neonicotinoid insecticides which are blamed for an alarming collapse in bee populations


+1
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Rob C

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Re: Bee Killing Pesticide Ban in Europe
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2018, 06:01:50 AM »

If the environment is of minimal Interest to one, then think of it this way: should we lose all the birds and the bees, parents would then run out of all extended similies through which to educate their children on the origin and perpetuation of their own species.

A fate wose than death, already!

;-)
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