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Author Topic: Large amount of P1 backs for sales  (Read 29506 times)

Kirk_C

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so nothing that fits what is typically done with "mainstream" medium format cameras..

Nothing yet.

P1 paid them a premium to be first I'm sure. The SONY Marketing department are respecting that for now.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #101 on: May 09, 2018, 12:57:51 am »

It would be very sad if Phase One was in trouble. Really one of the pioneers. Clever people so I hope they have a plan that works that keeps them going and successful.

I have used 5 backs over the years. From 6MP Kodak to a 80MP Leaf. They all helped me make a living. I got rid of the 80MP leaf last year. If it isnt working commercially then I cannot justify having it hang around. My clients are simply not asking for files that size. Sure there are clients who need it but not that many. In the past MF had a niche where they had the most pixels. We needed that and paid massive money to access it. Now we have passed the point where we are constantly wishing for more pixels. Now its about usability mostly. Workflow. Affordability in a  dry fluid environment.

If we end up with 150MP that will service a tiny market. There has to be more to Phase strategy than more pixels. I assume there is. Or they will end up a small software company marvelous as that software is
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #102 on: May 09, 2018, 09:24:02 pm »

I feel that today it is all about 2 things:
- productivity
- beautiful images with a look

And this is the main problem with MF overall. There are so few lenses options that you are pretty much stuck with a given look that will have to be overall pleasing, meaning quite neutral. Sharp of course with a pleasant bokeh, but this doesn't really matter that much any longer since all lenses are sharp. Strangely enough, you end up with the Lexus of lens rendering although you pay the Bentley price.

In terms of look, you end up having many more creative options in 35mm where I can use my 105mm f1.4 as close range if I want a super artistic bokeh, or my 70-200 f2.8 if I want just as much sharpness with a neutral rendering, or my [former] Otus 85mm f1.4, or the new Sigma 105mm f1.4, or... and the list is pretty much endless.

From that standpoint, mirrorless small sensors MF have a major value because you can adapt other lenses on it just like you can on the Sony. The fact that their sensor is hardly larger than 35mm becomes an asset here.

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #103 on: May 10, 2018, 10:41:53 pm »

Today there are only 6 Phase IQ backs listed on the two first pages of the For Sale forum.

:)

Edmund
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KLaban

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #104 on: May 11, 2018, 03:27:08 am »

Today there are only 6 Phase IQ backs listed on the two first pages of the For Sale forum.

:)

Edmund

Contagion?

;-)
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #105 on: May 11, 2018, 03:36:59 am »

Hi,

One interesting observation is that Phase One users often upgrade, so existing system is used in exchange and never gets to market. So I guess the users who sell are not going to upgrade within Phase One's value protection program.

Best regards
Erik


Today there are only 6 Phase IQ backs listed on the two first pages of the For Sale forum.

:)

Edmund
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BJL

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Nothing yet.

P1 paid them a premium to be first I'm sure. The SONY Marketing department are respecting that for now.
Maybe, but I have just had another thought: this is a marketing brochure and is of course not aimed at major camera makers like Hasselblad or Phase One, but at all the smaller customers: companies making specialized cameras for roles like machine inspection and security monitoring.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 05:10:42 pm by BJL »
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ErikKaffehr

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Hi,

Yes that could be the case. We don't actually now what all those sensor are used for.

My guess is that photography is a small but quite profitable part of the image sensor business.

Best regards
Erik


Maybe, but I have just had ant thought: this is a marketing brochure and is of course not aimed at major camera makers like Hasselblad or Phase One, but at all the smaller customers: companies making specialized cameras for roles like machine inspection and security monitoring.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #108 on: May 11, 2018, 11:46:20 am »

Hi,

One interesting observation is that Phase One users often upgrade, so existing system is used in exchange and never gets to market. So I guess the users who sell are not going to upgrade within Phase One's value protection program.

Best regards
Erik


The trade in system most definitely gets back to market, most of the time. Either Phase One offers the trade in as a refurbished model, or a dealer that specializes on selling pre-owned digital backs (like CI) will purchase the trade in from Phase One before it ever gets to Denmark, tests/inspects, and adds to their existing inventory.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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pschefz

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #109 on: May 11, 2018, 12:15:51 pm »

I feel that today it is all about 2 things:
- productivity
- beautiful images with a look



bingo
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Bo_Dez

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #110 on: May 12, 2018, 04:03:00 am »

I feel that today it is all about 2 things:
- productivity
- beautiful images with a look

And this is the main problem with MF overall. There are so few lenses options that you are pretty much stuck with a given look that will have to be overall pleasing, meaning quite neutral. Sharp of course with a pleasant bokeh, but this doesn't really matter that much any longer since all lenses are sharp. Strangely enough, you end up with the Lexus of lens rendering although you pay the Bentley price.

In terms of look, you end up having many more creative options in 35mm where I can use my 105mm f1.4 as close range if I want a super artistic bokeh, or my 70-200 f2.8 if I want just as much sharpness with a neutral rendering, or my [former] Otus 85mm f1.4, or the new Sigma 105mm f1.4, or... and the list is pretty much endless.

From that standpoint, mirrorless small sensors MF have a major value because you can adapt other lenses on it just like you can on the Sony. The fact that their sensor is hardly larger than 35mm becomes an asset here.

Cheers,
Bernard

This is well very articulated and mirrors my thoughts.

There is a mix of lenses I really like and even though I use an H system and Phase One out of necessity, there is no current medium format system that, by itself, gives me the look I want and am looking for. The problem being that a look is very difficult to create as its different for the individual - instead we get neutral lenses. I wish Zeiss was still in the medium format game - hopefully sometime in the future they will launch something for the mirrorless bodies. I would likely buy them.

Up to this point Phase One and Hasselblad have poured all their budget into pixels, to distance themselves from the competition. Lenses have been all but forgotten, except for a rare update. But now, especially Phase One, they have concentrated on something that has become somewhat irrelevant and put themselves out of the market I feel. Going from 100mp to 150MP is not enough, I have no interest.

One of the main reasons why I am so excited about the new mirrorless systems is the potential for a new set of lenses. Lenses that are interesting. It completely opens up the system to other possibilities and we can adapt a myriad of lenses, mix and match our own system that is unique to ourselves and combine it with a high quality sensor in a very versatile size.

To me, Phase one is the King that just can't hold court anymore. And unless it changes with the times it's going to become irrelevant.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 04:57:04 am by Bo_Dez »
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eronald

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #111 on: May 12, 2018, 02:43:36 pm »

Actually the old AF Mamiya lenses had a decent look - I had a few which were both decently sharp and gentle, especially a 150 which I really liked and which cost next to nothing. The old Zeiss  lenses need no defending in this forum, when used with film they just delivered, and this translated well to the first generation of digita backs.

The new (no Zeiss) Hassy lenses are more clinical, but there's a reason: A lens which needs to be used several e-generations in the future must basically have a flat characteristic, because any fall off eg in MTF will degrade its performance with sensors down the road. As Jim Kasson points out a flat characteristic means a completely predictable uninteresting look. The old Zeiss and even Mamiya  lenses were computed for film, and at the time a certain aberration past a certain resolution was acceptable as it was assumed that film wasn't going to improve much more than known high-rez slow BW emulsion :)

We would/will get some good looking lenses again when people agree on a sensor resolution, and this is actually the case for cine lenses where a lens is assumed to be used for 4K or up to 8K these days. Again it is probably counterproductive to mount a high-rez lens on a lower rez sensor because all you'll get is a clinical look, or worse ringing (aliasing).

Edmund

This is well very articulated and mirrors my thoughts.

There is a mix of lenses I really like and even though I use an H system and Phase One out of necessity, there is no current medium format system that, by itself, gives me the look I want and am looking for. The problem being that a look is very difficult to create as its different for the individual - instead we get neutral lenses. I wish Zeiss was still in the medium format game - hopefully sometime in the future they will launch something for the mirrorless bodies. I would likely buy them.

Up to this point Phase One and Hasselblad have poured all their budget into pixels, to distance themselves from the competition. Lenses have been all but forgotten, except for a rare update. But now, especially Phase One, they have concentrated on something that has become somewhat irrelevant and put themselves out of the market I feel. Going from 100mp to 150MP is not enough, I have no interest.

One of the main reasons why I am so excited about the new mirrorless systems is the potential for a new set of lenses. Lenses that are interesting. It completely opens up the system to other possibilities and we can adapt a myriad of lenses, mix and match our own system that is unique to ourselves and combine it with a high quality sensor in a very versatile size.

To me, Phase one is the King that just can't hold court anymore. And unless it changes with the times it's going to become irrelevant.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 02:49:03 pm by eronald »
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KLaban

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #112 on: May 12, 2018, 03:58:52 pm »

...In terms of look, you end up having many more creative options in 35mm...

Apologies for the huge snip but I really wanted to highlight this observation as it was one of the most important reasons for my switch from medium format to 35 full frame. The range of lenses open to me now is as extensive as it is interesting, happily many of which are also comparatively inexpensive.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 06:03:58 am by KLaban »
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Rob C

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #113 on: May 12, 2018, 04:58:57 pm »



The new (no Zeiss) Hassy lenses are more clinical, but there's a reason: A lens which needs to be used several e-generations in the future must basically have a flat characteristic, because any fall off eg in MTF will degrade its performance with sensors down the road. As Jim Kasson points out a flat characteristic means a completely predictable uninteresting look. The old Zeiss and even Mamiya  lenses were computed for film, and at the time a certain aberration past a certain resolution was acceptable as it was assumed that film wasn't going to improve much more than known high-rez slow BW emulsion :)


Edmund


I have no MF digital experience, and I'm not sure if it matters here; what is surprising to me is this thing about "flat".

All my RAWs end up out of the camera as flat as I can make 'em, but that helps me to turn them into many differently worked versions of the same shot, should I so desire. Digital processing is wide open, whereas with film, you got your general colour look (as distinct from personal style coming into play) depending on the film and lenses you used. I exclude bokeh in this thought, for it must surely be the same on both film and sensor if you use the same optic.

Are we perhaps creating brand new mystiques or just myths?

Rob

cgarnerhome

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #114 on: May 12, 2018, 05:56:30 pm »

Rob - I'm with you.  I use an XF 100 and I want the images to be "flat" so I can process them the way I want.  I had a LeicaS2 for awhile but did not like the contrast the lenses seem to add.  I completely understand that some people want that look.  The reality is we all have slightly different needs.  I love the competitive dynamics in the med format market - the more choices the better.

Bo_Dez

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #115 on: May 12, 2018, 06:29:48 pm »

Actually the old AF Mamiya lenses had a decent look - I had a few which were both decently sharp and gentle, especially a 150 which I really liked and which cost next to nothing. The old Zeiss  lenses need no defending in this forum, when used with film they just delivered, and this translated well to the first generation of digita backs.

The new (no Zeiss) Hassy lenses are more clinical, but there's a reason: A lens which needs to be used several e-generations in the future must basically have a flat characteristic, because any fall off eg in MTF will degrade its performance with sensors down the road. As Jim Kasson points out a flat characteristic means a completely predictable uninteresting look. The old Zeiss and even Mamiya  lenses were computed for film, and at the time a certain aberration past a certain resolution was acceptable as it was assumed that film wasn't going to improve much more than known high-rez slow BW emulsion :)

We would/will get some good looking lenses again when people agree on a sensor resolution, and this is actually the case for cine lenses where a lens is assumed to be used for 4K or up to 8K these days. Again it is probably counterproductive to mount a high-rez lens on a lower rez sensor because all you'll get is a clinical look, or worse ringing (aliasing).

Edmund

A well corrected lens doesn't have to look uninteresting - That is a total myth based on a small amount of design criteria. A "look" doesn't just come from aberration.

There are modern Medium Format lenses which look good and are well corrected too. It's just that finding a lens you like and a body that is right for you in one camera is difficult because there is so little to choose from and not as many lenses have been redesigned for digital. Also the price - Ive bought some cameras just for one particular lens - that's not something you can really do with medium format digital because if the expensive of it.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #116 on: May 13, 2018, 12:30:51 am »

If the photograph is so boring and non descript that you start noticing how boring the lens rendering is then I think the photo is best deleted and another attempt made.
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Graham Welland

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #117 on: May 13, 2018, 01:06:11 am »

Rob - I'm with you.  I use an XF 100 and I want the images to be "flat" so I can process them the way I want. ...

Cam,

I shoot the same way and process images from a flat curve in Capture One. You can always add contrast/curves but it's much tougher to remove them.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #118 on: May 13, 2018, 04:33:30 am »

If the photograph is so boring and non descript that you start noticing how boring the lens rendering is then I think the photo is best deleted and another attempt made.

Then you also most definitely never need more than 20 megapixels and most definitely not a (non mirrorless) MF camera.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 04:39:11 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Large amount of P1 backs for sales
« Reply #119 on: May 13, 2018, 04:52:45 am »

Then you also most definitely never need more than 20 megapixels and most definitely not a (non mirrorless) MF camera.

Cheers,
Bernard

True 95% of the time I think.
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