Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7   Go Down

Author Topic: The PR war  (Read 21767 times)

Martin Kristiansen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1527
    • Martin Kristiansen
Re: The PR war
« Reply #100 on: May 19, 2018, 07:18:41 am »

Martin, I'm sitting in a restaurant having lunch, hence the iPad which I love, but which is not easy to use in a hurry.

Let me just say that your last paragraph in no way states the spirit of what I think I expressed in my post.

I wasn’t being clear. Essentially I agree with you. With what you had written. I then added my take on the matter and was making a general comment on the current tendency of fast glass and shallow depth of field.

Logged
Commercial photography is 10% inspiration and 90% moving furniture around.

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Re: The PR war
« Reply #101 on: May 19, 2018, 12:04:41 pm »

No, I'd say look is far more complex than simple mechanical trickery. More is it a manifestation of mind, of how a person views his/her universe which, through photography, becomes somewhat more flexible a concept than through the prism of the naked eye.
Rob, thanks for your reply; I should have qualified that I was thinking of discussions about the "look" or "rendition" or "drawing" inherent in a lens (or a film), not what is achieved by the artistic choices and tendencies of the photographer.  I am inclined to the position that you seemed to take in a recent discussion: that with digital, it is usually fine for the lens to simply give an accurate rendition, with the "looks" once sought from lens idiosyncrasies now mostly* achievable in post-processing. Sort of "Lomography vs Photoshoppery".


(*) Not always of course; for example, blurring of backgrounds and foregrounds in software is not yet a match for doing it with large apertures, though we are heading there as can be seen at the vanguard of photographic technological innovation, meaning smart phones.
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: The PR war
« Reply #102 on: May 19, 2018, 05:50:58 pm »

There is a philosophical line btwn an image whose look is the result of lens design vs a post processing.

This impacts the way lenses are designed:
- lenses designed to have a character (Nikon 58mm f1.4 circular bokeh,...)
- lenses designed with some uncorrected aberations (most classic designs) because they didn’t know how to do better
- lenses designed to have a neutral rendering (most recent Canon designs, MF lenses,...)

These choices have large impacts on the look of images and many people in Japan consider this as a very important aspect of photography. Not to say essential.

Cheers,
Bernard

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: The PR war
« Reply #103 on: May 20, 2018, 04:01:50 am »

There is a philosophical line btwn an image whose look is the result of lens design vs a post processing.

This impacts the way lenses are designed:
- lenses designed to have a character (Nikon 58mm f1.4 circular bokeh,...)
- lenses designed with some uncorrected aberations (most classic designs) because they didn’t know how to do better
- lenses designed to have a neutral rendering (most recent Canon designs, MF lenses,...)

These choices have large impacts on the look of images and many people in Japan consider this as a very important aspect of photography. Not to say essential.

Cheers,
Bernard

As they used to say in the record business: it's big in Japan.

;-)

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: The PR war
« Reply #104 on: May 20, 2018, 02:59:37 pm »

As they used to say in the record business: it's big in Japan.

;-)

Yeah, and that as the french would say qualifies as breetish humour.


Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
The PR war: look, rendering, bokeh, etc.
« Reply #105 on: May 20, 2018, 06:42:30 pm »

- lenses designed to have a character (Nikon 58mm f1.4 circular bokeh,...)
- lenses designed with some uncorrected aberations (most classic designs) because they didn’t know how to do better
- lenses designed to have a neutral rendering (most recent Canon designs, MF lenses,...)
Bokeh is a very legitimate one: given that big OOF blurs are not part of the original scene anyway, there is plenty or room for esthetic choices in their shape and whether they fade towards the edge or have a bright "corona".

However I do not see that the nature of a lens's bokeh affects one way or another whether it has a "neutral" (i.e. "undistorted" or "accurate") rendering.
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: The PR war: look, rendering, bokeh, etc.
« Reply #106 on: May 20, 2018, 08:04:15 pm »

Bokeh is a very legitimate one: given that big OOF blurs are not part of the original scene anyway, there is plenty or room for esthetic choices in their shape and whether they fade towards the edge or have a bright "corona".

However I do not see that the nature of a lens's bokeh affects one way or another whether it has a "neutral" (i.e. "undistorted" or "accurate") rendering.

What I refer to here as "neutral bokeh" is close to what you get in PS when you apply a Gauss blur filter.

What Japanese refer to when they speak about lens rendering also includes CA, astigmatism,...

cheers,
Bernard

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: The PR war
« Reply #107 on: May 21, 2018, 04:38:33 am »

Yeah, and that as the french would say qualifies as breetish humour.


Edmund


Yeah, it lends a special bouquet bokeh to life.

Rob

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3686
Re: The PR war
« Reply #108 on: May 21, 2018, 03:20:50 pm »

I like lenses that force a photograph to look like it was taken with a camera.  :)

-Dave-
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: The PR war
« Reply #109 on: May 21, 2018, 09:11:54 pm »

At the risk of bringing this back to equipment talk, I recommend the following article from Thom Hogan for Nikon users. I own the 6 top lenses he is referring to and I couldn't agree more. Except for the 200mm f2 G that is of course older, the remaining 5 happen to be among the latest Nikon releases and show the level of excellence they are now able to achieve consistently.

Among the cheaper lenses, I also own the 24mm f1.8 and 85mm f1.8 and these 2 are real gems.

http://dslrbodies.com/lenses/lens-articles/choosing-lenses/my-five-favorite-nikkors.html

Cheers,
Bernard

NancyP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2513
Re: The PR war
« Reply #110 on: May 21, 2018, 09:49:33 pm »

RobC, that's why I suggested that lens #2 for a neophyte with an APS-C camera should be an inexpensive "nifty fifty" with f/1.8, at 60 to 80 USD for the Canon version, presumably similar for the Nikon version.

I use Canon examples because I have followed Canon low-end camera technology, and simply don't know much about Nikon cheapo used APS-C DSLRs. So, Nikon experts, what would be your best 800 to 1000 USD Nikon used kit that includes APS-C DSLR camera, normal zoom, and nifty fifty?

As for "look", sometimes aberrations can be a feature. Every once in a while I take out an old fast 50mm film-era lens with double Gauss design - plenty of aberration wide open, but also some character. The AIS Nikkor 50 f/1.2 is fun for this. I also occasionally take out my dad's old AIS Nikkor 105 mm f/2.5 - nice look, not as sharp as the sharpest modern lens.
Logged

hogloff

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1192
Re: The PR war
« Reply #111 on: May 21, 2018, 10:06:15 pm »

At the risk of bringing this back to equipment talk, I recommend the following article from Thom Hogan for Nikon users. I own the 6 top lenses he is referring to and I couldn't agree more. Except for the 200mm f2 G that is of course older, the remaining 5 happen to be among the latest Nikon releases and show the level of excellence they are now able to achieve consistently.

Among the cheaper lenses, I also own the 24mm f1.8 and 85mm f1.8 and these 2 are real gems.

http://dslrbodies.com/lenses/lens-articles/choosing-lenses/my-five-favorite-nikkors.html

Cheers,
Bernard

So...what's that got to do with Canon kicking Nikon's butt in sales?
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: The PR war
« Reply #112 on: May 21, 2018, 10:29:31 pm »

So...what's that got to do with Canon kicking Nikon's butt in sales?

Whatever you want to read in it.

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: The PR war
« Reply #113 on: May 22, 2018, 01:10:10 am »

So, Nikon experts, what would be your best 800 to 1000 USD Nikon used kit that includes APS-C DSLR camera, normal zoom, and nifty fifty?

A second hand Nikon D7200 has MF like DR and can be had cheap.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 01:23:09 am by BernardLanguillier »
Logged

Alex Waugh

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 68
Re: The PR war
« Reply #114 on: May 22, 2018, 04:11:47 am »

At the risk of bringing this back to equipment talk, I recommend the following article from Thom Hogan for Nikon users. I own the 6 top lenses he is referring to and I couldn't agree more. Except for the 200mm f2 G that is of course older, the remaining 5 happen to be among the latest Nikon releases and show the level of excellence they are now able to achieve consistently.

Among the cheaper lenses, I also own the 24mm f1.8 and 85mm f1.8 and these 2 are real gems.

http://dslrbodies.com/lenses/lens-articles/choosing-lenses/my-five-favorite-nikkors.html

Cheers,
Bernard

I far prefer the look of Nikkors but I wish they were built as well as Canon L glass. I assist / digital tech quite a few photographers and well used Nikons are always in far, far worse shape physically than their Canon counterparts.

Canons are a bit boring but they also don't have idiosyncrasies like the reversed focus / zoom rings on the 70-200 or the old AF system on the 105mm. I feel like a bit of each Nikkor recently has been unnecessarily compromised in some way, most likely due to recent financial strain. Canon will inevitably equal these lenses in resolution if not overall rendering with none of the surprises.

Also - the size of the new 24-70 - oof.

Edit - I shoot Nikon.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 04:22:20 am by Alex Waugh »
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: The PR war
« Reply #115 on: May 22, 2018, 07:40:28 am »

I far prefer the look of Nikkors but I wish they were built as well as Canon L glass. I assist / digital tech quite a few photographers and well used Nikons are always in far, far worse shape physically than their Canon counterparts.

Canons are a bit boring but they also don't have idiosyncrasies like the reversed focus / zoom rings on the 70-200 or the old AF system on the 105mm. I feel like a bit of each Nikkor recently has been unnecessarily compromised in some way, most likely due to recent financial strain. Canon will inevitably equal these lenses in resolution if not overall rendering with none of the surprises.

Also - the size of the new 24-70 - oof.

Don't know how they are treating their lenses. I don't pay special attention, use my lenses a lot in various unkind locations and most of them look brand new.

I personally find the reversed rings on the 70-200 f2.8 a great feature, I never touch the focusing ring and it is much more stable to hold the lens by its zoom ring since it is located farther from the body. The only thing that takes some getting used to is the reversed order compared to the 24-70 f2.8 E FL, but that is a matter of days with a normally constituted brain IMHO. I used both lenses exclusively for a week last year and after 2 days I was fine.

Cheers,
Bernard

Alex Waugh

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 68
Re: The PR war
« Reply #116 on: May 22, 2018, 08:03:20 am »

Don't know how they are treating their lenses. I don't pay special attention, use my lenses a lot in various unkind locations and most of them look brand new.

I personally find the reversed rings on the 70-200 f2.8 a great feature, I never touch the focusing ring and it is much more stable to hold the lens by its zoom ring since it is located farther from the body. The only thing that takes some getting used to is the reversed order compared to the 24-70 f2.8 E FL, but that is a matter of days with a normally constituted brain IMHO. I used both lenses exclusively for a week last year and after 2 days I was fine.

Cheers,
Bernard

You are the first person I've known that doesn't heavily dislike the reversed zoom/focus. As for the other photographers they are just regular, busy fashion people. I do love the new 28mm though its probably my pick of the bunch.
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: The PR war
« Reply #117 on: May 22, 2018, 08:18:32 am »

You are the first person I've known that doesn't heavily dislike the reversed zoom/focus. As for the other photographers they are just regular, busy fashion people. I do love the new 28mm though its probably my pick of the bunch.

I know that many a photographer dislike it, bit I don’t get it, this is a minor change for me.

I guess it may be a matter of how used one is to reworking muscle memory.

But objectively speaking it is much more logical this way. And this does clearly contribute to the amazing level of real world sharpness this lens delivers consistently. If my Leica R 180mm f2.8 APO were not lighter and more compact I would have sold it already. The Nikon zoom equals or beats the best 180mm prime ever designed...

Agreed on the 28mm f1.4, one of my most used lens.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 06:57:05 pm by BernardLanguillier »
Logged

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: The PR war
« Reply #118 on: May 22, 2018, 08:50:56 am »

RobC, that's why I suggested that lens #2 for a neophyte with an APS-C camera should be an inexpensive "nifty fifty" with f/1.8, at 60 to 80 USD for the Canon version, presumably similar for the Nikon version.

I use Canon examples because I have followed Canon low-end camera technology, and simply don't know much about Nikon cheapo used APS-C DSLRs. So, Nikon experts, what would be your best 800 to 1000 USD Nikon used kit that includes APS-C DSLR camera, normal zoom, and nifty fifty?

As for "look", sometimes aberrations can be a feature. Every once in a while I take out an old fast 50mm film-era lens with double Gauss design - plenty of aberration wide open, but also some character. The AIS Nikkor 50 f/1.2 is fun for this. I also occasionally take out my dad's old AIS Nikkor 105 mm f/2.5 - nice look, not as sharp as the sharpest modern lens.

Nancy, I don't mean to be rude, but I can't quite see to which of my posts you are responding, so I can't really reply in turn!

Rob

armand

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5565
    • Photos
Re: The PR war
« Reply #119 on: May 22, 2018, 09:23:22 am »

A second hand Nikon D7200 has MF like DR and can be had cheap.

Cheers,
Bernard

I’m not the most up to date with their latest offerings but this sounds about right.

As for the lenses, 18-55 or 18-140 for zooms and 35 1.8 DX for prime. I used to use primarily the 16-85 (now replaced by 16-80) but they are above your budget, I do wish Fuji would bring a similar lens for their APS-C.
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7   Go Up