Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 15   Go Down

Author Topic: New H3D full frame!!!  (Read 112781 times)

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2006, 09:58:01 am »

Quote
Tell me how well Rollei. Sinar, Leaf and Phase One have been marketing themselves over the last five years and I will gladly concede that I miss the crucial point. These are not exactly companies well known for their marketing savvy. Hasselblad however, is.

Actually I haven't heard so much as a 'boo' from Hasselblad for years. Only by indirect reports and third party websites. If they do any marketing at all, it must be elsewhere.

Quote
Rollei, Leaf, Phase One and Sinar combined cannot match the marketing muscle of Hasselblad USA. At the end of the day, whoever provides the most complete all-in-one solution takes the market.

...or whoever provides what that professionals want. There is nothing complete about the H system with only a few lenses and no WLF. I believe that the Hy6 will be the more complete system from the first day it hits the shelves.

Quote
Why would rental houses who would not take a second look at the Rollei 6008 system all these years, all of a sudden take an interest in the Hy6?

Because suddenly it will work with their existing rental backs (afaik). The 6008 didn't.

I guess we come from different worlds. I know people who own P1 backs but I never met anyone who rented one. Seems to be more of a big deal in the US. Europeans tend to own their own gear. The rental market is meaningless to me.

Quote
And by the time the Hy6 is truly ready and everything that it promises to be, will photographers be convinced to switch when what they have, the Hasselblad, has worked as well as it has? Not bloody likely, as Seinfeld sez.

There are no H3D owners yet. Some people will upgrade. This number will be small compared to the number of high-end DSLR users who are waiting for a clear MF solution. Many have been hanging on for a clear winner and to see what happens with Mamiya. The H system is far from mature, and as I already wrote, the Hy6 will be a more complete system from day one. I only hope they can release it soon.

Quote
In fact, with the Rollei line splintering up into four distinct groups, market confusion is the end result. Witness how many questions loom on this forum about what the Hy6 really is.

Probably not more than the questions asked about the H system a few days after that was first announced. 99% of questions will be answered once specs are published. I don't see your point.

Quote
You are all besotted with what you think the Hy6 promises without waiting to see if its promises can be delivered.

It's true we don't have hard facts, but unlike the H system, this system already uses a proven range of lenses and other parts. I'll be happy if the thing just connects Rollei lenses to my choice of P1/Leaf/Sinar back. The rest is a bonus.
Logged

damien

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 111
    • http://www.lovegroveportraits.com
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2006, 10:07:37 am »

I own H1/ P25 is as good today as it was when I bought it. I can put a P45+ on it too if I want and still be ahead of the H3D. The H3 seems to be a rebadged H2 which in turn is a rebadged H1 (no mention of faster AF or better metering). I'm not sure about the accesories thing either. There is nothing to suggest the waist level finder won't work on my H1 is there? In fact no mention of any accesories not compatable with H1 in anything I've read. The only compatability issue mentioned is the 28mm lens. I'm happy with my 35mm at the wide end and not after anything wider. Now it is likely that you need the software to correct abberations and distorsions on the 18mm so that may be the reason for incompatability. The only other reason can only be a deeper pertruding rear element. The H3 can have a smaller mirror as it is no longer real full frame capable.  I wouldn't be surprised if a third party like Phase One included lens mapping in its software portfolio. We will have to wait and see.

It does seem that the agressive stance by Hasselblad is likely to do more damage than good to their sales. I'm sure that for the past 2 years or so Phase One has been making more profit than Hasselblad and if Phase was to partner Mamiya and make better backs than Imacon then Hasselblad too will become a boutique brand to join Rollei.

Damien.

Gary Ferguson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 550
    • http://
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2006, 10:54:39 am »

Quote
I'm sure that for the past 2 years or so Phase One has been making more profit than Hasselblad

Damien, I think you're getting to the heart of the issue here, it's this commercial reality that really explains why Hasselblad have taken such an aggressive stance.

I believe Phase One have about 60% of the single-shot, medium format back market. So what's Imacon's share? Obviously it can't be more than 40%, even 30% sounds high, so I'd say 20% or less. Which means Phase One are probably selling three backs or more to every one sold by Imacon.

And what about medium format SLR camera bodies? Well here it's a completely different story, Hasselblad don't have a great deal of competition at the moment so it's reasonable to assume that their share of the body market must be over 60%, I wouldn't be surprised if it was currently 80% or even higher.

But what about the relative profitability of backs and bodies? I understand that Kodak charges about $5k per sensor, which suggests to me that there's roughly $5k of gross margin in every back sale. However, I very much doubt that Hasselblad takes $5k from each sale of an H1/2 plus a couple of lenses, not after Fuji's slice. And furthermore the replacement cycle for backs is far more attractive than that for bodies. There's plenty of sexy developments still to come with backs (even if it's needed or not), but there's not too much that can be done to tempt a photographer to upgrade current bodies. I guess that professional photographer's will upgrade their backs every two to three years, but only upgrade their bodies every five to ten years.

So the profit's in backs, but Hasselblad's strength is in bodies. And that strategic truth will only grow in importance over the coming years. I doubt too many people are buying brand new, medium format cameras and lenses today with the intention of using them with film. Tomorrow it will be virtually nil. The future for the medium format SLR business is digital, and digital means backs not bodies.

Now if Victor Hasselblad was still in charge he might be swayed by sentimentality. But he's not in charge, a hard headed Hong Kong trading company called Shriro runs Hasselblad, and they'll be beating CEO Poulsen around the head saying come up with a plan to drive our back sales or we'll find someone who can. And Poulsen's strategy is very simple, he plans to strong-arm the market into Imacon backs with the H3D. If you play around with some numbers you'll see he can afford to lose quite a few body sales and still be ahead on the bottom line so long as he sells just a few more backs. I'm not privvy to Hasselblad's financial data, but taking a few eductated guesses I reckon they'll still make a lot more money if they sell a third fewer bodies but get Imacon backs on all of them.

And that, to my commercial mind if not my photographer's mind, sounds like a gamble worth taking.
Logged

pprdigital

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 422
    • http://www.phaseone.com
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2006, 11:26:06 am »

Quote
I'm sure that for the past 2 years or so Phase One has been making more profit than HasselbladDamien.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78575\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Damien:

You're sure based on....

It has been widely distributed that Phase One lost money for years. The first profitable year they had was rumored to be 2004. Emphasis on "rumor". So, that is not necessarily known fact. Hard to find out without being a publicly traded company, like Hasselblad. Hasselblad was losing money until the Imacon merger. Within a year, they were profitable again (fact), and they are profitable today. As for the future....

You have to remember, unit sales are never the only factor of profitability. Profitability is based on a balance sheet.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
Logged
Steve Hendrix
[url=http://www.phaseone.c

Gary Ferguson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 550
    • http://
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2006, 11:32:08 am »

Quote
Profitability is based on a balance sheet.

Hmm? Last time I looked profitability was based on a profit and loss account.
Logged

pprdigital

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 422
    • http://www.phaseone.com
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2006, 11:41:24 am »

Quote
Hmm? Last time I looked profitability was based on a profit and loss account.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78586\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Gary:

Pardon my wording - balance sheets contain statements of assets/liabilities, etc, do they not?

What I meant is that unit sales alone do not mean a company is profitable. Phase One certainly sells more digital backs than Hasselblad, but that doesn't mean they're profitable. You could not determine that without seeing a "balance sheet" or statement of profit/loss, if you like.

Dell sells more computers than Apple. It doesn't speak to their profitability in any particular way, other than it completes an "asset" column in the ledger, just one part of the equation.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
Logged
Steve Hendrix
[url=http://www.phaseone.c

hubell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1054
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2006, 11:52:54 am »

Steve:
While the intense  opinions on the morality and marketing  savvy/stupidity  behind Hassleblad's approach with the  H3 are all well expressed and heartfelt, I would  be very interested in more practical observations from you and others about the plusses/minusses/differences in the file quality and workflow with the Hasselblad 39MP backs compared  to the P1 P45 and the Aptus75. I recall you are a Hasselblad and Leaf dealer.
Thanks.

Gary Ferguson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 550
    • http://
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2006, 12:30:39 pm »

Quote
What I meant is that unit sales alone do not mean a company is profitable.

And on that we can certainly agree.

Quote
Steve:
I would be very interested in more practical observations from you and others about the plusses/minusses/differences in the file quality and workflow with the Hasselblad 39MP backs compared to the P1 P45 and the Aptus75. I recall you are a Hasselblad and Leaf dealer.


Has Hasselblad demonstrated anywhere the practical benefits of their "digital apo correction" system (apologies if I've got the name wrong). This seems to be the corner stone of their justification for a closed system, and therefore I'd like to learn more about it. In particular I'd like to see evidence that it works (ie before and after comparisons), and understand why it demands a closed system rather than just a post capture module similar to DxO.
Logged

rsmphoto

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 127
    • http://www.rsmphoto.com
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2006, 12:47:48 pm »

Quote
In particular I'd like to see evidence that it works (ie before and after comparisons), and understand why it demands a closed system rather than just a post capture module similar to DxO.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78595\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Gary,

Wouldn't it be simpler to go to a dealer and do some testing on your own rather than rant? I for one, have taken the time to do just that and amazingly have found that what they claim is true! Wow! Can you believe it? DAC actually works!

Hey, but rather than take my or anyone else's word for it just take the time to go test the camera and make your own judgement.
Logged

Gary Ferguson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 550
    • http://
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2006, 01:04:25 pm »

Quote
Wouldn't it be simpler to go to a dealer and do some testing on your own rather than rant? I for one, have taken the time to do just that and amazingly have found that what they claim is true! Wow! Can you believe it? DAC actually works!

I never said it wouldn't Richard. I've an open mind, if veering towards the sceptical, regarding DAC. Not a bad policy with Hasselblad. After all they're the ones that told us the 905 was an advance over the 903. Before it emerged the emperor was stark bollock naked and the 905 was a forced move as Zeiss could no longer source the optical glasses needed for the 903. Oops!

So, let us all benefit from your investigations. You saw files with and without DAC did you? And to get to the heart of the issue, why does DAC demand a closed system?
Logged

bwpuk

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 64
    • http://www.barriewatts.co.uk
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2006, 01:20:50 pm »

I can really understand how people are so upset by Hasselblads decision over their future direction. Especially as they've invested so much money in their present systems. I ask the question, probably from a naive point of view,  do we really need to invest in another new Hasselblad to successfully carry on our businesses? Will it improve our photography and turnover, is it really necessary? I know it carries a whole bunch of new technology with it, including DAC whatever the hell that means, but do we honestly need it to create better pictures.  James Russell seems to manage very well with his Contax gear and he seems to be a very busy photographer.

Some time ago I decided to stop pixel peeping and gear lusting and concentrate on my work. It improved enormously and thankfully still continues to do so. I looked at the work of people I admire and tried to find out what gear they used and quite often it was very basic.  I won't get sucked into buying gear from any manufacturer that becomes obsolete after a couple of years. I reckon Hasseblad are digging themselves a hole with their future policy. If they disappear down it good luck to them. Kodak thought they had a monoply on film until Fuji came along.

Barrie Watts
Logged
Barrie Watts
 [url=http://barriewatts.co.

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2006, 01:26:46 pm »

I am still unsure about this whole 'closed system' thing

The H3 looks to be the same camera as the H1/2 with firmware upgrade and a viewer that covers the 48 chip size rather than 645

Blad are obviously pushing thier own products but how are they actually closing out the other back makers

The 28 obviously relys on some image correction but surely a  third party plug in or regular PS skills will correct this lens

As I said before I am sure BMW say 'our cars only work with our wheels' whereas everyone knows there is a thriving market for after market low profile alloys

Can anyone link to a web page with the quote 'our system wont work with others' from a reliable Blad source

Why didnt anyone at Kina just grab the lense/body and try swapping the bits with thier H1/2

If blad werent allowing that then that adds weight to my theory
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

pss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 960
    • http://www.schefz.com
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2006, 01:28:57 pm »

a closed system has the advantage that the manufacturer has control over all aspects of the imagemaking...which would be the ideal case...BUT we all know that it is hard to make the best camera, the best lenses, the best back, the best chip and the best software all in one company...(i guess hasselblad still uses kodak and fuji for some of this, but they still make more of their own parts in house then the others...)
so the "old" idea of a seperate camera maker, seperate lens maker, seperate back maker and seperate software designer still makes more sense to me...especially if they seem to work closer together then ever before...as in the case of the Hy6...

i am not sure about the uncertainty of the Hy6...the lenses are available, the backs are available and franke&heidecke will build a body that will be labeled sinar, leaf, rollei or whatever and below it will say made by franke&heidecke...very simple...just like zeiss has built lenses for rollei and hasselblad...

the fact that F&H works so closely with leaf, sinar (and phase?) and schneider and jenoptic is wonderful and esures that everybody does what they are doing best...throw in the fact that the leaf and sinar back files can be opened by most converters and editing software already...this is about choices!

all i can say that the 645 rotating film back designed for the 6000 series is amazing, anyone who has ever held one or worked with one knows what i am talking about...it fits into the back-adapter with contacts on both sides, almost gets sucked in, the fit is amazing, a simple and elegant solution which screams for a digital chip....from the photos and from some text from a german site i understand that the Hy6 will even take these backs/inserts from the 6000 series...when people talk about the Hy6 like it is some spaceship they forget that it really is a slimmed down 6008af (even the controls are in the same place) and that the 6008af is a very mature product in its 3rd generation.....
Logged

rsmphoto

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 127
    • http://www.rsmphoto.com
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2006, 01:39:06 pm »

Quote
why does DAC demand a closed system?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78603\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Probably software/firmware. That would be my guess. It's the same reason you can't use Flexcolor with a Phase or Leaf back or vice versa Phase's and Leaf's software with a Hasselblad back. Honestly, do you think Leaf and Phase would allow Hasselblad to have at their capture software in order to write the proper data into it, even if the could? Why would Haselblad want to do that anyway? It's really not in their interest. They have a technology that gives them a definite edge over the others. Why negate that? This is a tough business and it seems right now all of the players have an attitude of every man for himself. No different that Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Mamiya. They want to sell more backs and this certainly gives people a reason to consider them.
Logged

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2006, 02:11:35 pm »

Quote
Probably software/firmware. That would be my guess....

That is not a reason for ADC 'demanding' a closed system.

The original poster's point was that Hasselblad are once again making a false claim by suggesting that a closed system was 'necessary' to implement ADC. What rubbish. Whatever processing is done to the captured data, it could be done on a PC as well as in-camera.
Logged

izaack

  • Guest
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2006, 02:16:43 pm »

Quote
That is not a reason for ADC 'demanding' a closed system.

The original poster's point was that Hasselblad are once again making a false claim by suggesting that a closed system was 'necessary' to implement ADC. What rubbish. Whatever processing is done to the captured data, it could be done on a PC as well as in-camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78616\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You do NOT have proof to say that it is indeed rubbish and false. This is pure speculation on your part and does a disservice to Hasselblad.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2006, 02:17:33 pm by izaack »
Logged

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2006, 02:21:25 pm »

Quote
You do NOT have proof to say that it is indeed rubbish and false. This is pure speculation on your part and does a disservice to Hasselblad.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78619\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Nope, it is false. Software is software, regardless of whether it runs in a custom DSP or on a PC. The data can be processed with identical results.
Logged

izaack

  • Guest
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2006, 02:29:41 pm »

Quote
Nope, it is false. Software is software, regardless of whether it runs in a custom DSP or on a PC.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78622\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It is still speculation and is based on your understanding of what software should be and how it should be implemented in your ideal world. Software, including firmware, can be proprietary.

You still cannot furnish proof other than speculation.

Quote
The data can be processed with identical results.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78622\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Prove it.
Logged

jpop

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2006, 02:41:01 pm »

This isn't an end all decision for closing the system by Hasselblad.  A simple flash of the ROM and the opening of the architecture at a later date when the revenue crosses a bean counters desk will verify whether it was a good decision or time to change course.  Does the higher attachment rate of Hasselblad backs revenue exceed the lost revenue of the camera system?  

The entire medium and large format back market is in flux.  Double secret handshake agreements, strategic alliances and market altering acquisitions.  There isn't room for 4 players in the market and everyone is grasping for partnerships with outside vendors.  PhaseOne courting Mamiya while providing the software for Leica's flagship product while they acquire a majority share of Sinar.  Jenoptik bows out of their Sinar acquisition but meanwhile still has a technology agreement in place and also with Leaf via Franke and Heidecke.  

Strange bedfellows and interesting times ahead.  It will definitely prove to be novel material in the not too distant future.
Logged
John Popp
Dodd Camera Professional Divis

Graham Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2281
New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2006, 02:42:29 pm »

Quote
It is still speculation and is based on your understanding of what software should be and how it should be implemented in your ideal world. Software, including firmware, can be proprietary.

Making software proprietary has nothing to do with the fact that the same processing could be handled on a PC and therefore the closed system IS NOT NECESSARY. This is a simple fact obvious to anyone who understands digital electronics. Not trying to flame you but this obviously isn't your field of expertise so why pretend it is?
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 15   Go Up