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Author Topic: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?  (Read 7960 times)

eronald

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2018, 10:08:00 PM »


Hassy does not make the EVF they use in the X1D or own any EVF intellectual property that I'm aware of.

The main IP in any digital camera these days is ... the sensor.

Sensor makers have always provided reference camera electronics designs, and in fact I think the first Phase backs were close to a Dalsa design.

So there's no surprise that a sensor made to stream to an EVF should use the specced EVF, the specced read circuitry etc.

Let's see how much "IP" goes in to Phase's mirrorless when it gets released ....

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2018, 03:16:16 AM »

Hi,

EVFs are getting better, I would presume. But, even now, an EVF is a great advantage when shooting in dark, that is less than well illuminated, places.

Also, an EVF helps with accurate focus. With an EVF it is in generally possible to get pixel level magnification anywhere on the screen. It is just not possible with an OVF.

EVF uses the actual pixels to focus and that eliminates a set of alignment problems. Same said for contrast detecting AF based on reading the sensor.

Obviously, Hasselblad needed to sort out quite a few things with the X1D.

Best regards
Erik


I hate EVFs too... but my view is that today AF on the OVF based MF cameras is a major liability that very seriously affects my ability to tap into the resolution potential of the camera. I am still able to work with it, but an EVF would expand its usage envelope significantly.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2018, 02:02:23 PM »

Sensor makers have always provided reference camera electronics designs, and in fact I think the first Phase backs were close to a Dalsa design.

Notably all Phase One backs made using Dalsa sensors shipped with a Sensor+ sensor design which was designed and patented by Phase One.

All modern Phase One backs that used a Kodak sensor shipped with electronics and firmware that allowed a good one hour exposure when other backs made with the identical sensor maxed out at 30-120 seconds.

The IQ3 100mp Trichromatic uses a Bayer pattern designed by Phase One.

In other words Phase One has a pretty solid history of getting the most out of other company's sensors or adding unique value to them. I'm not hinting at any specific thing. Just pointing out the value-beyond-plugging-in-a-component that can be brought to bear by a large and motivated R+D team with long-term focus and consistent funding and leadership.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 02:06:55 PM by Doug Peterson »
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2018, 07:59:36 PM »

The IQ3 100mp Trichromatic uses a Bayer pattern designed by Phase One.


Whoa! Are you saying the pattern was designed by P1? I thought the dyes were spec'd by P1, but that's as far as it went. Does the Trichromatic use other than one of the four Bayer patterns?

Jim

ErikKaffehr

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It is not that easy to put an EVF on SLR-based design and maintain AF
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2018, 01:10:10 AM »

Hi,

I am not sure that it is reasonable to add an EVF on a DSLR, if AF capability should be maintained.

SLR designs normally use Phase Detecting AF (PDAF) that use special sensors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofocus#Phase_detection

Modern sensor designs often have some support for PDAF, usually by masking half of some pixels and making use of the micro-lenses in the front of the detector. But, such devices are not present on the MFD sensors available today. Fuji said that they hoped for Sony making a PDAF capable version of the 44x33 mm chip, but that was not the case.

When Sony introduced EVF on DSLRs, they kept the PDAF system, but replaced the moving mirror with a semi transparent one, so they were shooting trough the mirror. I would call that system a kludge, but it was working reasonably well. But, I always felt skeptic about that mirror in the optical path.

Today's EVF MFD cameras use CDAF. CDAF simply measures contrast at the AF point and varies focus, until best focus is found. So, CDAF requires quite a few focusing attempts, so CDAF systems needs AF drives that can do focusing very fast. So, lenses designed for CDAF usually have some new AF-drives like linear steppers or voice-coil and the focusing group is probably lightweight.

So, getting CDAF working well with existing lenses that were designed for PDAF may be very difficult and I also think that getting a well working CDAF program code may also take a lot of effort.

Best regards
Erik
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Bo_Dez

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2018, 06:50:07 AM »

I know of at least nine different bayer arrays and there are likely more. Kodak have experimented with Magenta and Cyan too.

It's no big deal. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. The most prolific and successful over the decades is the BRGG.

Phase One has not officially announced what pattern it is, other than some kooky marketing material.

"Designed around the concept of mimicking the dynamic color response of the human eye, we have physically customized the Color Bayer Filter on the 101-megapixel sensor to tailor the color response. This allows the Digital Back to capture color in a new way, unlike anything else."

Bryce Bayer designed the Bayer filter in 1976 to mimic the physiology of the human eye. The Bayer CFA has double the amount of green photosensors, because our eyes have more sensitivity to luminosity in green wavelength.

They may be working with a custom CFA, but I will bet that it's based on the BRGG array, just more variation in a greater amount of photosensors. I don't find that so impressive.

I believe Sony have developed something more like the Foveon Sensor which could really make a difference, moving away from the Bayer array entirely which is problematic.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 11:50:51 AM by Bo_Dez »
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Bo_Dez

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2018, 07:26:07 AM »

The EVF v Optical argument is similar to the Digital v film debate of years gone by. Wether you like it or not, the EVF is the future.

As someone who has shot medium format digital since as long as it has been around, the weakest link in the chain is focus. I have found the Hasselblad H faster and more accurate than the Phase One XF but still, it's no match for EVF and PDAF of mirrorless.

I was using the H and Phase One yesterday on my shoot and thought of this thread. Even after all these years of using the Hasselblad H, I am struck by how good it's ergonomics are. The camera while a bit bulky is still really quite light and I hand hold it even with the longer lenses, 120, 150 etc all day long without issue.

I didn't really have the same feelings with the Phase One XF when I tried it.

I am happy using Phase One backs on the Hasselblad H but if a smaller, faster, more efficient system is on offer, I'm likely going to take it.

The camera should only be as big as it needs to be.
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BJL

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2018, 09:32:17 AM »

Erik, there are clearly use cases for Live View on DSLRs, and for them, the EVF adds ergonomics that many prefer, and usually higher resolution than the rear screen. PDAF at most adds speed to AF, not accuracy, and hand-held manual focusing is important to many photographers.

Also, I expect on-sensor AF to keep improving, be it PDAF or some new approach like Panasonicís depth from defocus: the mirrorless and video markets are driving that.
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Dave Rosser

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2018, 11:09:38 AM »

I know of at least nine different bayer arrays and there are likely more. Kodak have experimented with Magenta and Cyan too.

It's no big deal. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. The most prolific and successful over the decades is the BRGG.

Phase One has not officially announced what pattern it is, other than some kooky marketing material.

"Designed around the concept of mimicking the dynamic color response of the human eye, we have physically customized the Color Bayer Filter on the 101-megapixel sensor to tailor the color response. This allows the Digital Back to capture color in a new way, unlike anything else."

Bryce Bayer Array designed the Bayer filter in 1976 to mimic the physiology of the human eye. The Bayer CFA has double the amount of green photosensors, because our eyes have more sensitivity to luminosity in green wavelength.

They may be working with a custom CFA, but I will bet that it's based on the BRGG array, just more variation in a greater amount of photosensors. I don't find that so impressive.

I believe Sony have developed something more like the Foveon Sensor which could really make a difference, moving away from the Bayer array entirely which is problematic.
There is an article on this site giving explanation, see here.

Bo_Dez

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2018, 11:45:14 AM »

There is an article on this site giving explanation, see here.

Thanks. It seems I was right, it's a variable density filter and as I had imagined, probably spread over a greater number of photosensors.

I think the incoming Sony Foveon-like sensor will have more impact on colour but that is likely another few years off yet. Maybe more where it get t the point of being in medium format.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 12:14:35 PM by Bo_Dez »
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BJL

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X3 sensor developments from Canon, Panasonic, Sony, etc.
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2018, 11:52:50 PM »

I believe Sony have developed something more like the Foveon Sensor ...
Over the years I recall reading of efforts at X3 type sensors (that is the official designation of "three layer sensors" with full color at each photosite) from Canon, Panasonic, Sony and Toshiba, but it is not clear that any will do better than Sigma-Foveon's niche market, if they come to market at all.
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Bo_Dez

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Re: X3 sensor developments from Canon, Panasonic, Sony, etc.
« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2018, 08:20:41 AM »

Over the years I recall reading of efforts at X3 type sensors (that is the official designation of "three layer sensors" with full color at each photosite) from Canon, Panasonic, Sony and Toshiba, but it is not clear that any will do better than Sigma-Foveon's niche market, if they come to market at all.

I think Sony is probably the most likely to make it work though.
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EricWHiss

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2018, 10:43:39 PM »

Phase will probably survive but because of their software not their hardware. I do think their C1 is very good. 
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #53 on: March 23, 2018, 03:43:54 AM »

Phase will probably survive but because of their software not their hardware. I do think their C1 is very good.

Yes, it is an amazing piece of software!

Cheers,
Bernard

Bo_Dez

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #54 on: March 23, 2018, 07:51:12 AM »

I agree. Not just their software, but the way their software and hardware integrate. Also the fact they hold they keys to other brands now too puts them in a great position.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #55 on: March 23, 2018, 10:20:55 AM »

Can you elaborate?

Best regards
Erik


I agree. Not just their software, but the way their software and hardware integrate. Also the fact they hold they keys to other brands now too puts them in a great position.
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Bo_Dez

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2018, 11:20:08 AM »

Can you elaborate?

Best regards
Erik

Lightroom is fading from popularity. More and more people are using Capture One, especially so in the professional fields. Phase One can always ensure their cameras are giving the better results in RAW development because they are in control of it. The are "holding the keys" so to speak. Or they can just easily lock competition to by excluding their cameras, as they do with other Medium Format offerings. Clever business and probably quite visionary to create the platform they have and when they did.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2018, 01:47:26 PM »

Lightroom is fading from popularity.
Your source for this?  I know there seems to be a sentiment on this forum that renting software is a bad thing, but I deal with hundreds of customers, the majority of which use Lightroom  and started using it because of the low entry point of $10 a month, and the majority of which have never heard of C1.

CC has reached over 12m subscrsibers.  This means Adobe has caught up to the number of registered users it had with the last versions of their CS application. I donít know how many are Lr users vs all of their other apps, but it seems there are plenty of people that have no problem with a very small monthly fee over the substantial constant upgrade costs every 18 months or so.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2018, 03:51:47 PM »

Hi,

C1 also has a subscription model. I would actually choose that model, specially that Phase One was very fast on releasing a new major version within months after my buying a version.

But C1 supports my P45+ for free and their express version is also free for Sony, the other system I use. So, I test C1 from time to time.

Unfortunately, the fact is that learning best use of a complex program like C1 takes some time. I have used LR since it's inception and now a few tricks.

C1 not supporting competing backs makes sure that users of competing backs don't use C1, except for a few who convert their stuff to DNG and change the camera name from GFX to IQ350.

We may note that Charlie Cramer uses Lightroom in the tutorials. That may be that he prefers Lightroom, but he uses Pentax 645, so C1 does not support his gear.

I think that Capture One is often used for tethered shooting.

What I think is that with the X1D and the GFX medium format has expanded. Hasselblad said somewhere that X1D sales are 6x (or 7X) times H-system sales and the GFX is probably selling well. So, excluding what may be say 90% of the market may not be a smart thing. The market is essentially Team Phase One, Hasselblad, Leica S, Pentax 645, Fuji (GFX).  It is to make sure that a low percentage of MFD users use C1.

Best regards
Erik

Your source for this?  I know there seems to be a sentiment on this forum that renting software is a bad thing, but I deal with hundreds of customers, the majority of which use Lightroom  and started using it because of the low entry point of $10 a month, and the majority of which have never heard of C1.

CC has reached over 12m subscrsibers.  This means Adobe has caught up to the number of registered users it had with the last versions of their CS application. I donít know how many are Lr users vs all of their other apps, but it seems there are plenty of people that have no problem with a very small monthly fee over the substantial constant upgrade costs every 18 months or so.
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DougDolde

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #59 on: March 23, 2018, 07:00:12 PM »

This is why you should buy the Nikon D850, C1 supports the files.  That's the only interest I have in Phase One, got off their absurdly priced upgrade scam.
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