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Author Topic: Does your profiled monitor do this?  (Read 8084 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2018, 02:50:23 PM »

The OP has his RGB working space set to his monitor display profile because I told him to for temporary reasons in order to scroll up to CustomRGB... to see the white point XY numbers Colormunki measured on his display.
For what goal?
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Andrew Rodney
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2018, 04:03:07 PM »

The goal is to see how off from the colormeter's reading of visual white point or at its current unadjusted native state without RGB gains.

If it's WAY off it might induce the software to write the profile in a way that might slightly shift color managed memory colors as I've seen in the past switching from a 5000K display profile to a 6500K but not altering visual white point tint between the two. There's no way to know how much off the XY numbers can be without affecting color managed previews this way.

In my case I haven't seen anything shift that I would notice in screen to print matching sessions.
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digitaldog

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2018, 04:09:14 PM »

The goal is to see how off from the colormeter's reading of visual white point or at its current unadjusted native state without RGB gains.
And which set of values is 'correct'? If either.
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Andrew Rodney
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2018, 04:12:17 PM »

ADC was disabled, Luminance by Video LUT was disabled, profile version 4 was selected, and 2.2 tone curve was selected when I made the first ICC profile (reply #6 attachment), the one you downloaded and tested.   My second ICC profile (reply #10 attachment) had ADC enabled, Luminance by LUT enabled, profile version 2 selected, and 2.2 tone curve selected,

Do NOT select version 4 profile.
 
The Dell ICC profile appears in the PS color settings> Working Space>RGB> drop down list.   If I remember right, the appearance of the monitor's ICC (the one by ColorMunki) in that drop down list means that Windows successfully launched it at startup.  Is that what you mean by "Windows loading the video card LUTs upon startup"?

Those Your Display selected as RGB working space instructions are only for checking your XY numbers in CustomRGB. Forget about the LUT loader. Your mentioning that you learned how to make step wedges recently is suspect now. To cut to the chase how does this step wedge look on you monitor?...


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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2018, 04:17:19 PM »

And which set of values is 'correct'? If either.

The one that states D65/6500K which shows this in CustomRGB if selected in that dialog box in order to override the XY numbers provided by the custom display profile. The display profile will most likely as in my case show XY numbers slightly different. Plot those XY numbers on the Planckian Locus and compare it to the 6500K position. If the display is WAY OFF as in going clear off the white point arch into saturated territory, there may be issues to check for in color managed previews.
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digitaldog

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2018, 04:37:27 PM »

The one that states D65/6500K which shows this in CustomRGB if selected in that dialog box in order to override the XY numbers provided by the custom display profile. The display profile will most likely as in my case show XY numbers slightly different. Plot those XY numbers on the Planckian Locus and compare it to the 6500K position. If the display is WAY OFF as in going clear off the white point arch into saturated territory, there may be issues to check for in color managed previews.
Again, CCT Kelvin colors define a large RANGE of colors. Again: http://digitaldog.net/files/22Thecolorofwhite.pdf
And NO, D65 isn't 6500K! D65 is a specifically defined color. CCT 6500K is a range of possible colors.
Lastly, readers should pay attention to the comment about "most likely" when the condition actually is or isn't it, most likely? No one really knows.
No, lastly the unanswered question: which is correct and what makes you believe it is correct?
No again, lastly, do read the issues involved: there is a horrible alternating cyan/magenta color cast to grayscale step wedges. Why just grayscale if as you presume, the display is WAY OFF.
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Andrew Rodney
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2018, 04:45:06 PM »

Again, CCT Kelvin colors define a large RANGE of colors. Again: http://digitaldog.net/files/22Thecolorofwhite.pdf
And NO, D65 isn't 6500K! D65 is a specifically defined color. CCT 6500K is a range of possible colors.
Lastly, readers should pay attention to the comment about "most likely" when the condition actually is or isn't it, most likely? No one really knows.
No, lastly the unanswered question: which is correct and what makes you believe it is correct?
No again, lastly, do read the issues involved: there is a horrible alternating cyan/magenta color cast to grayscale step wedges. Why just grayscale if as you presume, the display is WAY OFF.

And now the ankle biting starts with Andrew. Was wondering what he was fishing for with the short responses. Looks like he found a hook to offer argumentative "NO HELP" badgering that doesn't fix the OP's problem.

Andrew, do you have any tips to help the OP's issue other than spout color theory?
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texshooter

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2018, 04:56:48 PM »


Those Your Display selected as RGB working space instructions are only for checking your XY numbers in CustomRGB. Forget about the LUT loader. Your mentioning that you learned how to make step wedges recently is suspect now. ..

You misunderstood me. I have never and would never select my monitor ICC profile for my RGB working space in PS.  All I'm saying is that I occasionally look inside the drop down list (see below) and search for my monitor's ICC profile (I don't select it; I only locate it).  If it's in the list, that tells me that Windows successfully launched the correct monitor ICC at startup and that PS is communicating correctly with the operating system.  You had asked me if I "checked to see if Windows is loading the video card LUTs upon startup."   That is how I check to make sure. Yes, of course, I can also go to Control Panel>Color Management and verify that the desired monitor ICC profile is flagged as "Default," but I go the extra step and peek inside Photoshop's Color Settings>Working Spaces>RGB drop down list to make sure PS has locked onto the correct monitor profile. I made my step wedges in aRGB, ProphotoRGB, sRGB, as I should have.  It's my understanding that PS and Windows need to be on the same page with regards to the monitor's ICC profile, and I'm just making sure they are.

PS find monitor by texshooter, on Flickr
 

To cut to the chase how does this step wedge look on you monitor?.

It looks horrible--magenta/cyan casts everywhere--just like the step wedges I made myself.   I'm going down your check list of things to try. I'm still working on it.

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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2018, 05:09:03 PM »

You misunderstood me. I have never and would never select my monitor ICC profile for my RGB working space in PS.

It looks horrible--magenta/cyan casts everywhere--just like the step wedges I made myself.   I'm going down your check list of things to try. I'm still working on it.

I said that in reference to finding the XY white point coordinates in your custom display profile by scrolling up to CustomRGB. To load your display profile and have its XY numbers show up in CustomRGB..., you have to first load your display profile as an RGB Working Space (for temporary purposes/cancel out of CustomRGB and cancel out of Color Settings and it automatically returns your original RGB Working Space). That's all I meant. Another poster without reading our exchanges thought you set your display as your RGB Working Space permanently. I was assuring that person that wasn't what you were doing.

Now that my grayramp looks just as screwed up, that rules out a botched step wedge which I've also encountered creating one in Lab space and applying 21 step under Posterize filter in Photoshop and got odd colors. So that's why I needed to find out how you made your step wedge.

So if you can't fix this with all the suggestion I've outlined you may have either a faulty colormeter and/or aging display that might be fixed by reducing Brightness.

I've offered as much help as I can. Good luck with your situation. Maybe Andrew with his professional expertise can solve this for you.
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texshooter

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2018, 05:24:18 PM »

It is a Dell after all, lest we forget. :-\
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2018, 05:34:35 PM »

It is a Dell after all, lest we forget. :-\

Yeah, I had a Dell 22" but it developed dark markings that resembled the internal metal support grid underpinnings. I still have it but replaced it with the LG 27" LED from Best Buy and its white point range of hues has drifted away from what Colormunki Display considers a standard hue.

When my LG was new back in 2013 the Colormunki nailed the 6500K XY numbers seen in CustomRGB. Now it doesn't so I don't know what to trust, the aging Colormunki colormeter or the condition of my LG.

I still get screen to print matches on edited images so I don't worry about it.

And my camera has a very sensitive AWB shooting Raw in that I have to always correct for white balance shooting outdoors. My LG white and gray looks quite neutral and my images of daylight scenes look very realistic as I remember. Where's the problem?
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digitaldog

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2018, 06:04:36 PM »

And now the ankle biting starts with Andrew.

Was wondering what he was fishing for with the short responses. Looks like he found a hook to offer argumentative "NO HELP" badgering that doesn't fix the OP's problem.
Is that your coded answer when I ask you actually explain what you wrote in a technically correct fashion? The OP will be aided by ignoring the rabbit hole you've started and your confusion over CCT values and those that define specific color values.
Quote

Andrew, do you have any tips to help the OP's issue other than spout color theory?
I did add text to aid the OP and again, you failed to either read or understand them. Type a bit less, study the subject a bit more first. You're not in the position or knowledge, based on the text today to spout color science but you're doing a fair job at the color science fiction!  :P
Quote
Now it doesn't so I don't know what to trust, the aging Colormunki colormeter or the condition of my LG.
I completely agree with the text above that isn't struck through FWIW!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 06:18:05 PM by digitaldog »
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Andrew Rodney
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digitaldog

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2018, 06:06:25 PM »

You misunderstood me. I have never and would never select my monitor ICC profile for my RGB working space in PS.  All I'm saying is that I occasionally look inside the drop down list (see below) and search for my monitor's ICC profile (I don't select it; I only locate it).
You're correct on both counts! Using PS to examine what it is actually using for the display profile, as you did, is a great and simple way to see what the system and PS is using for a profile of your display. And I suspect, unlike Tim, had you picked it as a working space, you'd be in far, far worse shape then you are in now!
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Andrew Rodney
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Simon J.A. Simpson

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2018, 04:10:35 AM »

Textshooter.  I have found it is very easy to get one’s self tied in knots with colour management.  What you need to do is try to eliminate what may be causing the problem – is it the monitor, the operating system, colour management, or the profile (or something else) ?

Here are some suggestions you may like to try.  Have you been able to display the greyscale at all without colour shifts ?  Under what conditions was this possible ?  Have you tried not using colour management (is this possible on Windows) ?  Have you tried not using the profile created by the ColorMunki ?  Is it possible that you only noticed these colour shifts once you started looking critically at the greyscale ?  If you are able to try another monitor on your computer, and then profile it; do the similar colour shifts appear ?

Through bitter experience I have found the only way to solve these problems is by taking a meticulous scientific approach eliminating the possibilities one by one; and you need to be very patient !

Good luck !
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 04:14:45 AM by Simon J.A. Simpson »
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digitaldog

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2018, 12:44:58 PM »

Textshooter.  I have found it is very easy to get one’s self tied in knots with colour management.
Indeed! Especially when following some advise that only sends you down an illogical rabbit hole. We've seen that thus far here.
Your ideas for testing the actual issues here are sound and the OP should follow them and report back. Examining the display profile or what tags it suggests is such a rabbit hole.
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Andrew Rodney
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digitaldog

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2018, 12:53:00 PM »

Try eliminating one factor at a time to come up with the source of the issue:


Switch out just displays (borrow another if necessary): problem persists, it isn't your display.
Switch out just Colorimeter: problem persists, it isn't your measuring device.
Try a vastly different profile setting for WP and if possible, set the software for a Native Gamma. Better, worse? 
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Andrew Rodney
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texshooter

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2018, 10:02:56 PM »

Try eliminating one factor at a time to come up with the source of the issue:


Switch out just displays (borrow another if necessary): problem persists, it isn't your display.
Switch out just Colorimeter: problem persists, it isn't your measuring device.
Try a vastly different profile setting for WP and if possible, set the software for a Native Gamma. Better, worse?

I don't have another monitor to test. Actually, I did have a Dell laptop but it croaked a month ago (just in time, thanks Dell).
And I'm not going to buy a new colorimeter because the next monitor I buy will have a built-in one.

I tried different profile settings (like sRGB and random profiles on the list), but the problem persists more or less.
The Dell 3007 came with it own ICC profile file,  but It won't install for some reason.

I downloaded the Dell OSD software thinking I might try manually dialing in the contrast, WP, and luminance instead of letting the Colormunki ADC engine take control.  But the OSD software won't work. That's again Dell.

I tried calibrating the monitor to the "native" WP,  but got ugly yellow whites. I don't think the Colormunki software is able to identify what the Dell's native WP is.  Don't I need to reset the monitor to the factory default settings first? And how can I do that when there's no control buttons on the monitor and no functioning OSD panel?

The upside to the story is I experimented with calibrating the monitor to 5500K instead of the standard 6500K, and photos now look more colorful and pleasing to the eye.  So I'll set the 5500K ICC profile as default.   And move on with my life.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 10:09:08 PM by texshooter »
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digitaldog

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2018, 10:32:16 PM »

The upside to the story is I experimented with calibrating the monitor to 5500K instead of the standard 6500K, and photos now look more colorful and pleasing to the eye.
Well that's progress and there's zero reason why you should consider ANY set of values other than those that produce the desired results. My WP is set for CCT 5150K on my SpectraView. Not 5200K, not 5100K, nether were ideal or correct. Just keep raising or lowering the values until you hit the value that produces the calibration you visually desire.
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Andrew Rodney
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Doug Gray

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2018, 01:13:44 AM »

I took a look at the vcgt data. Nothing seems that off. The tilt up at the end of the blue response is a bit more than I've run across but otherwise pretty standard curves.

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texshooter

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2018, 01:34:56 AM »

I took a look at the vcgt data. Nothing seems that off. The tilt up at the end of the blue response is a bit more than I've run across but otherwise pretty standard curves.

That one may look acceptable, but when I choose "Native"  for my monitor's target white point in i1Studio, I get a pretty wonky curve.
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