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Author Topic: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink  (Read 2647 times)

NAwlins_Contrarian

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2018, 06:01:13 PM »

At the risk of getting a bit OT:

Quote
The p800 ... has great glossy output as well, but there is no gloss Optimizer. My older 13" epson had gloss optimizer, not sure why Epson didn't continue the trend.

AFAIK, Epson has been totally consistent on for which printers it does, and does not, provide gloss optimizer. Epson has always (since 2003) put gloss optimizer in the 8.5-inch and 13-inch 'bright colors' pigment-ink printers (R800, R1800, R1900, R2000, and P400). Epson has never put gloss optimizer in the 13-inch and 17-inch 'art' pigment-ink printers (2000P, 2200, R2400, R2880, R3000, P600, Pro 3800, Pro 3880, P800, Pro 4000, Pro 4800, Pro 4880, Pro 4900, and P5000).
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Frodo

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2018, 11:20:56 PM »

And also OT:
The weight of a full P600 LK cartridge (with plastic wrapping) is 54g. I'll update this when I replace a cartridge and weigh the wrapping.
That of an empty LK cartridge is 27g. So the weight of the used ink (plus plastic wrapping) is 27g.
I pulled apart a cartridge and found very little ink, just in a little reservoir.  I tried to remove the ink, but the difference was about the resolution of the digital scales 1g.  I guess about 1ml remained.
Epson says that the cartridges hold 26ml (28g) of ink.
So this indicates that about 25/26ml is available.  I'm okay with that.
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unesco

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2018, 02:22:57 AM »

The carts that came with the printer?
all kind of carts, that which came with the printer and the new ones. the same states for P800 and 3880.
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Farmer

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2018, 02:54:02 AM »

all kind of carts, that which came with the printer and the new ones. the same states for P800 and 3880.

Right, the carts that come with the P800 are smaller in capacity than the normal carts.  So your figures basically prove that they provide exactly the claimed yield.  As Frodo showed with the P600 the same.
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Phil Brown

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2018, 04:08:30 AM »

Right, the carts that come with the P800 are smaller in capacity than the normal carts.  So your figures basically prove that they provide exactly the claimed yield.  As Frodo showed with the P600 the same.

no, not the same (if I understand your post correctly)

in Frodo (best wishes  :) ) case (P600), there is the same ml in the cart as declared and virtually all of it goes for print, what is a good point for P600

in my case (P800, 3880), there is around 80 g (not ml) what transfers to a bit more than 70 ml. 15 ml (sometimes a bit less) remains in the cart when it needs to be removed. all in all, usable amount of ink is around 60 ml out of declared 80 ml (also depending on cartridge color)
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Farmer

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2018, 04:46:24 AM »

no, not the same (if I understand your post correctly)

in Frodo (best wishes  :) ) case (P600), there is the same ml in the cart as declared and virtually all of it goes for print, what is a good point for P600

in my case (P800, 3880), there is around 80 g (not ml) what transfers to a bit more than 70 ml. 15 ml (sometimes a bit less) remains in the cart when it needs to be removed. all in all, usable amount of ink is around 60 ml out of declared 80 ml (also depending on cartridge color)

The P800 starter cart is NOT 80ml, it's 64, so the figure you have represents one of the starter carts exactly.  Sorry, but it's simply not true that you are missing large amounts of ink.
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Phil Brown

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2018, 05:15:59 AM »

The P800 starter cart is NOT 80ml, it's 64, so the figure you have represents one of the starter carts exactly.  Sorry, but it's simply not true that you are missing large amounts of ink.

no, no, please read my previous post with measurements carefully. I have measured all kind of carts, starters for P800, regular for P800 and those for 3880. except of point 1) from my previous posts, all behaved the same (remained ink at the and. of course starters for P800 were lighter at the beginning.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2018, 08:23:49 AM »

no, no, please read my previous post with measurements carefully. I have measured all kind of carts, starters for P800, regular for P800 and those for 3880. except of point 1) from my previous posts, all behaved the same (remained ink at the and. of course starters for P800 were lighter at the beginning.

For somebody who is an "ex-metrology guy" I find your manner of presenting your findings to be confusing. One could get the impression that you are commingling apples and oranges and calling it all fruit - I hope that's not the case. Starter cartridges are 64 ML, replacement cartridges are 80 ML. Each size needs to be evaluated separately and the data presented separately. And please don't further muddy the discussion by introducing CM3 when only two variables are needed: grams and ML. Your data indicates that there are about 0.883 ML per gram - (because you say that 15ML weighs 17g)? That is what we need to know (if the information is correct) for including the specific gravity adjustment into the conversion between grams and ML. And you have found that an empty cartridge weighs 63g. So, how much does a FULL NEW 80g cartridge weigh? Could you please confirm that measurement, then subtract 63g for the empty shell, then multiply the difference by 0.883 and we should then have approximately the content of ink in ML, if you other measurements are correct.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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unesco

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2018, 12:41:15 PM »

For somebody who is an "ex-metrology guy" I find your manner of presenting your findings to be confusing. One could get the impression that you are commingling apples and oranges and calling it all fruit - I hope that's not the case. Starter cartridges are 64 ML, replacement cartridges are 80 ML. Each size needs to be evaluated separately and the data presented separately. And please don't further muddy the discussion by introducing CM3 when only two variables are needed: grams and ML. Your data indicates that there are about 0.883 ML per gram - (because you say that 15ML weighs 17g)? That is what we need to know (if the information is correct) for including the specific gravity adjustment into the conversion between grams and ML. And you have found that an empty cartridge weighs 63g. So, how much does a FULL NEW 80g cartridge weigh? Could you please confirm that measurement, then subtract 63g for the empty shell, then multiply the difference by 0.883 and we should then have approximately the content of ink in ML, if you other measurements are correct.

Dear Mark, pleas do not question someone competences, I feel all those "ifs", direct and indirect, are not needed in your reply. I am not questioning yours...
This forum is not for metrology experts, so it would be useless and time consuming to prepare full detailed report with error analysis etc, it is not my intention.

To the point: what is not clear for you in my previous post with measurement results? I think all needed data are there including the exception (starters for P800).

There were only two starter carts for P800 in the poll. I have not included them in the point 1) stating new cart weight (or rather mass, if you want t o be more precise) what I clearly written. I have written about 64 ml P800 starters to show that the same amount of ink remains in them at the end as for regular ones.

The full new regular cart weights 143 [g] (+-2 [g]) and it is the same for P800 and 3880.

So, 143 [g] - 63 [g] = 80 [g] of total ink in a new cart (EXCLUDING P800 starter carts).

Ink density is 1.13 [g/cm3] (or if you prefer 1.13 [g/ml], units don't matter). So, that gives 80 [g] / 1.13 [g/ml] = 70.8 [ml].
Because of possibility of not precise measurements of small numbers of mass (17 [g] in 1 [g] steps) the density might be a bit different. Common value, also repeated on this forum, is 1.08 [g/ml] but I think it can differ among manufacturers and ink types and colors.

I have 30 "empty" carts so I can measure average ink density more precisely if anyone gives me a trick to open plastics quickly.

And another information is that ~15 ml of ink remains in every "empty" cart, similar in proportion to the values presented on the first video I have pasted previously (40 ml remaining at the end, the new cart capacity is 225 ml, and nominal value should be 220 ml). Similar proportions are reported to all Pro Epson photo printers (not sure about Px0k series). From consumers point of view it is unfair, at least in Europe.

Any other questions?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2018, 01:17:18 PM »

I didn't question your competence. I told you I found the way your material was presented confused me. That could be my problem or your problem, I don't know - all I want to do is understand unambiguously what you're doing. You have now helped clarify a key aspect of it in the post above. Thank you. But anyhow, all this is OT relative to the topic, which is about the large clean-out of ink on a Canon Pro-1000.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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unesco

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2018, 01:31:33 PM »

I didn't question your competence. I told you I found the way your material was presented confused me. That could be my problem or your problem, I don't know - all I want to do is understand unambiguously what you're doing. You have now helped clarify a key aspect of it in the post above. Thank you. But anyhow, all this is OT relative to the topic, which is about the large clean-out of ink on a Canon Pro-1000.

Thank you, when I make more detailed measurements, I will open a new thread.
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Panagiotis

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2018, 02:03:37 PM »

...which is about the large clean-out of ink on a Canon Pro-1000.

I believe that the big ink dump described here is a "System Cleaning" procedure. The one that can also be triggered by the user when a simple "Print Head Cleaning" or "Deep Head Cleaning" is not enough to clean a clogged head. The only thing the user can do about the "System Cleaning"s is to choose "Short" or "Standard" intervals between them. The user cannot disable them by a printer menu option. But maybe it is possible to do it indirectly. Take a look a the "What to do" section of the support code 1753 at the following link. Thoughts?

https://support.usa.canon.com/kb/index?page=content&id=ART163227
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henrikolsen

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2018, 02:49:31 AM »

I believe that the big ink dump described here is a "System Cleaning" procedure. The one that can also be triggered by the user when a simple "Print Head Cleaning" or "Deep Head Cleaning" is not enough to clean a clogged head. The only thing the user can do about the "System Cleaning"s is to choose "Short" or "Standard" intervals between them. The user cannot disable them by a printer menu option. But maybe it is possible to do it indirectly. Take a look a the "What to do" section of the support code 1753 at the following link. Thoughts?

https://support.usa.canon.com/kb/index?page=content&id=ART163227

Haven't noticed that one before. Interesting find with this option to overrule/disable the system cleaning function with the stop button. How do you re-enable the cleaning again? And can the state of this feature be seen anywhere in menus, software, status print or?

I would be somewhat worried of the consequences regarding head longevity if infrequently used. But if someone is printing regularly (whatever that is, perhaps at least once a day), it could be very interesting to hear if the 1:1 ratio of ink on paper vs waste could improve dramatically (while maintaining print quality of course) - in case the printer is unnecessarily eager with it's normal cleaning functions.
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Panagiotis

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2018, 03:32:00 AM »

Haven't noticed that one before. Interesting find with this option to overrule/disable the system cleaning function with the stop button. How do you re-enable the cleaning again? And can the state of this feature be seen anywhere in menus, software, status print or?

I would be somewhat worried of the consequences regarding head longevity if infrequently used. But if someone is printing regularly (whatever that is, perhaps at least once a day), it could be very interesting to hear if the 1:1 ratio of ink on paper vs waste could improve dramatically (while maintaining print quality of course) - in case the printer is unnecessarily eager with it's normal cleaning functions.

Pushing and holding the Stop button when the printer is in standby mode does nothing. I am thinking to try to trigger a 1753 support code by using a previously depleted ink cartridge and then push and hold the Stop button to see what is going to happen. But this is risky business and I have important print jobs scheduled for this month. So experimentation will have to wait :).
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2018, 09:33:10 AM »

I believe that the big ink dump described here is a "System Cleaning" procedure. The one that can also be triggered by the user when a simple "Print Head Cleaning" or "Deep Head Cleaning" is not enough to clean a clogged head. The only thing the user can do about the "System Cleaning"s is to choose "Short" or "Standard" intervals between them. The user cannot disable them by a printer menu option. But maybe it is possible to do it indirectly. Take a look a the "What to do" section of the support code 1753 at the following link. Thoughts?

https://support.usa.canon.com/kb/index?page=content&id=ART163227

Yes, my thoughts are you shouldn't do it (press and hold the "Stop" button) and if you do it could impact print quality while voiding that aspect of your warranty. As I've suggested before:

(1) This system cleaning is a normal part of Canon's under-the-hood printer maintenance programming, and
(2) If it seems to be happening at intervals that are too short in terms of time or square footage printed, perhaps there is something wrong with the printer, so phone Canon for tech support.

In so doing, have the details of what happened between major cleaning cycles on hand so they can't just tell you nothing is abnormal - not to say they necessarily would, but in any support system you can run into lazy agents. The more details on usage you have on hand the better the quality of support is likely to be.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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MabeHall

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Re: Canon Pro 1000 wasting ink
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2018, 11:09:35 AM »

It is not very scientific, but I have printed a fair amount since I got my pro 1000 over a week ago.  The main reason is that I want to see the difference against my p800, which I still own. Taking into account the 50% of the cartridges used for priming (but still ultimately available for prints), ink usage doesn't seem to be any worse than for my p800. I have printed about 25 8x11 prints and 2  11x17 prints. The former consumes an average of 0.7 ml of ink per print, with the latter consuming an average of 1.3ml of ink per print.  This is according to Canon Accounting Manager.  Unfortunately, the ink status bars aren't very specific, but I would read them as indicating anywhere from 35-41% ink left.

-For several of these prints, i selected full coverage clear coat.
-All but a few of the photos have been glossy, on a variety of papers from Canon, Ilford, Hahnemhule, and Moab.
-I print through imageprint for most prints, but some were through canon print studio pro (Imageprint uses the Canon XPS printer driver)
-in the ink maintenance settings, I turn off settings 1 and 3, while leaving setting 2 at Standard
-The printer is set to stay on, unless I turn it off.
-I am running the latest firmware (2.60)
To look at the accounting software for the amount of ink used for each print is meaningless.  It doesn't show the waste. When you start the accounting software, 3 lines show in the window: Displaying Job Cost List, Pro-1000 series, and Not Displaying.....   Highlight the line Pro-1000 series. Right click on it and a window comes up showing a lot of data including total ink and paper consumed and ink consumed for each color.  If you record the total ink consumed, make a print, and check that figure again. You will get, within a rounding error, the total ink consumed--waste plus what is put on paper. You may have to click on View then refresh to make sure you're getting the latest data.  And...a 2nd print immediately after a 1st print will not waste a recordable amount of ink. Wait a day, two or three and look at total ink consumed before and after a print. I just updated to firmware 2.060 and hope it solves or at least reduces my waste problem.
Mabe
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