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Author Topic: Getting started with a large-format roll printer  (Read 3723 times)

dseelig

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2018, 02:56:12 PM »

Or you could be very smart and buy a HP Z 3200 printer and not get hosed on ink running down the drain and if you need a new head they are cheap and easily replaced.
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stockjock

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2018, 05:12:38 PM »

Or you could be very smart and buy a HP Z 3200 printer and not get hosed on ink running down the drain and if you need a new head they are cheap and easily replaced.
Obviously, there is a very vocal fan base for the HP Z3200 printers on this forum and I'm sure that all of the positives that have been enumerated over time are real but I know that I simply felt it was weird to pay about the same price such an old model with all the uncertainty about whether HP will even keep supporting it for the next 5-10 years compared to the new printers from Canon and Epson.  Of course, it has been over three years since I bought my iPF8400 and two head replacements later the HP does look like it might have been the better decision back then LOL.
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John Nollendorfs

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2018, 05:43:14 PM »

Or you can buy "HP Everyday Satin" 24x100' for B&H with free shipping for $52.

Prints nice!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=HP%20everyday%20satin&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=

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dseelig

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2018, 06:24:47 PM »

The vocal base is because I have owned canon and epson and Canon the worse ink hog imaginable and Epson well if you do not live in a dry climate buy one. And Epson drains more ink then HP but less then Canon
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stockjock

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2018, 10:31:58 PM »

Or you can buy "HP Everyday Satin" 24x100' for B&H with free shipping for $52.

Prints nice!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=HP%20everyday%20satin&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=

Crazy prices on that paper.  $82 for a 42"x100' roll.  What is the downside?  I assume the paper isn't anywhere near archival but how do prints on it compare to an ordinary satin paper?
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Landscapes

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2018, 03:10:53 AM »

Your screenshot shows the ink used to make your prints. It doesn't include the ink ending up in the waste tank, which as I noted in my earlier post is considerable. As a general rule of thumb for a low frequency use situation (e.g. one print session using a few linear feet of paper every two or three weeks), the ink used by Canon WF printers for cleaning cycles and which collects in the enduser-replaceable waste tank will be comparable to the ink landing on the paper. You can get a more accurate estimate of that waste ink by measuring the maintenance tank weight before installation and then after it is full. Some solvent loss will occur due to evaporation over time, but the weight difference before and after will give you a pretty accurate assessment of the cleaning cycle activity which the Canon accounting manager doesn't track.

This is where you are wrong.  I know this for a fact because I took a screen shot before going away and shutting the printer down, and then I took another screen shot when I returned after turning the printer on and watching it do a clean.  Since I hadn't done any prints, why would the counter be 50ml higher?  This counter adds up all the ink that goes through the printer.

I also know this for a fact because my printer needed to have the main board and the carriage replaced, and I watched the numbers go up by the hundreds when all the ink needed to be drained before this work was completed.

This is also how I know that a typical clean cylce A uses about 14ml of ink.  It adds everything up. 

As final proof, refer to these two images.  Its the amount of ink used before and after a head change.  The number jumps from 6067 to 6138 for a total of 71ml.  The key here to note is that the top 6 colors don't change in terms of ink used because this wasn't the head that was changed.  It is only the bottom 6 numbers that change, reflecting the head that was actually changed.  If a print was done, surely ink from the other head would have to be used and hence some of the ink total in the top 6 colors should have changed.  You can see that about 11ml or so from each color is used for the head change, which would work out to 66ml, but I guess because of rounding errors and such, it actually adds up to 71ml in total.  (It must be about 11.5ml from each color)

« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 03:16:35 AM by Landscapes »
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Panagiotis

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2018, 04:53:22 AM »

This is where you are wrong.  I know this for a fact because I took a screen shot before going away and shutting the printer down, and then I took another screen shot when I returned after turning the printer on and watching it do a clean.  Since I hadn't done any prints, why would the counter be 50ml higher?  This counter adds up all the ink that goes through the printer.

I also know this for a fact because my printer needed to have the main board and the carriage replaced, and I watched the numbers go up by the hundreds when all the ink needed to be drained before this work was completed.

This is also how I know that a typical clean cylce A uses about 14ml of ink.  It adds everything up. 

As final proof, refer to these two images.  Its the amount of ink used before and after a head change.  The number jumps from 6067 to 6138 for a total of 71ml.  The key here to note is that the top 6 colors don't change in terms of ink used because this wasn't the head that was changed.  It is only the bottom 6 numbers that change, reflecting the head that was actually changed.  If a print was done, surely ink from the other head would have to be used and hence some of the ink total in the top 6 colors should have changed.  You can see that about 11ml or so from each color is used for the head change, which would work out to 66ml, but I guess because of rounding errors and such, it actually adds up to 71ml in total.  (It must be about 11.5ml from each color)

Is the total ink consumed (~6000 ml) in line with the total number of cartridges installed in your printer? I ask this because in may case (PRO-1000) the relevant screen is reporting more ink consumed that the total cartridges installed not to mention that there is lot ink left in the 12 working cartridges. Weighting the maintenance tank is more reliable IMO.
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Joe Towner

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2018, 11:26:31 AM »

Congrats on the questionable decision making ;)  There is little in photography that'll make you as happy as seeing a print come out.  The only word of caution is those of us who rent, having a backup plan for storing the printer in the event the next location can't fit it.  You're right for going bigger than 24" since the price jump isn't that bad compared to upgrading later on.
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John Nollendorfs

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2018, 11:28:03 AM »

Crazy prices on that paper.  $82 for a 42"x100' roll.  What is the downside?  I assume the paper isn't anywhere near archival but how do prints on it compare to an ordinary satin paper?
It's an RC paper, medium weight. It's my go to photo paper. Down side? You pay less for it. ;-)

Prints very nicely on my 11 year old HP z3100  with gloss optimizer. Have a friend that prefers it over the HP Premium satin paper.
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Landscapes

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2018, 01:06:42 PM »

Is the total ink consumed (~6000 ml) in line with the total number of cartridges installed in your printer? I ask this because in may case (PRO-1000) the relevant screen is reporting more ink consumed that the total cartridges installed not to mention that there is lot ink left in the 12 working cartridges. Weighting the maintenance tank is more reliable IMO.

Excellent question.  I really have no idea.  If I take 6800 and divide by 130ml, I get 52 carts.  Now I did for my very first round of replacements order the 300ml carts, and I also sometimes used 300ml cart for the gray and yellow that are used up quickly, but since its slow now, I'm only using the 130ml carts.  If I divide the 52 carts by 12, I get roughly 4 carts, which seems low as I'm sure I have more empties of some colors, but at the same time, other colors like blue and green are hardly ever used.

I might actually still have all of the empties left, so perhaps I can count it up over the weekend and see.
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stockjock

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2018, 07:32:19 PM »

It's an RC paper, medium weight. It's my go to photo paper. Down side? You pay less for it. ;-)

Prints very nicely on my 11 year old HP z3100  with gloss optimizer. Have a friend that prefers it over the HP Premium satin paper.

It sounds like it is worth trying.  I just bought a roll.  I'm a sucker for a bargain LOL.
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stockjock

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2018, 07:38:20 PM »

The vocal base is because I have owned canon and epson and Canon the worse ink hog imaginable and Epson well if you do not live in a dry climate buy one. And Epson drains more ink then HP but less then Canon

I'm confused by your claim that the Canon is the worst ink hog imaginable.  I just went through my accounting software for my iPF8400 and it looks like I average 2.45 milliliters of ink to cover 15x20" of paper.  Assuming you buy the 700 ml cartridges brand new for $287 that is $0.41 per ml or $1.00 in ink per 15x20" image on 17x22" paper.  Is the HP really that much cheaper and how much cheaper would it have to be to matter?  And if you run the iPF8400 regularly it doesn't seem to clog or go through needless cleaning cycles.  What am I missing because ink cost is the very last thing I worry about when it comes to the cost of owning/printing with the iPF8400. 
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MHMG

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2018, 09:32:29 PM »

This is where you are wrong.  I know this for a fact because I took a screen shot before going away and shutting the printer down, and then I took another screen shot when I returned after turning the printer on and watching it do a clean.  Since I hadn't done any prints, why would the counter be 50ml higher?  This counter adds up all the ink that goes through the printer.


All I can say is, if Canon's accounting software was accurately measuring ink hitting paper plus ink going to waste tank, we wouldn't be having this discussion any more. It would have been settled quite some time ago. Keep in mind, the ink usage in cleaning cycles isn't being jetted by the nozzles. It's being pumped through them, so for Canon to account for it correctly, the printer would have to be sending correct dosage information to the accounting function from both nozzle firing data and pump purge metering data. Nozzle drop counts are relatively easy for the printer to track. Pump metering data would more than likely require additional sensor cost added to the printer unless only a crude estimate of pump purging "on" time was tracked and correlated to ink consumption. In the countless forum discussions I have read over the years regarding Canon ink consumption questions, not once have I read any statements clearly validating how Canon does its accounting function for ink consumption, but the vast majority of respondents consider it to be tracking only ink to paper with reasonable accuracy.
 
Hence, I'm still inclined to believe that one needs to take the Canon ink accounting numbers with a grain of salt...accurate for nozzle firings and thus the ink hitting the paper, not so much for ink consumed on cleaning cycles.  I'd be more than happy to be wrong with respect to Canon's accounting functionality. Perhaps someone lurking here from Canon (and there are indeed corporate lurkers following the LULA website) and now reading my remarks can enlighten all of us, but I kind of doubt that's going to happen!

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 09:46:32 PM by MHMG »
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Miles

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2018, 09:27:23 AM »

I too am surprised at the comment regarding Canon being an ink hog.  I've owned an ipf8300 and now the ipf8400 and have been very happy with both.  I also owned a Z3100 which ran flawlessly for years.  I can't offer any detailed statistics on ink usage, but I have not noticed any appreciable difference and would not consider either to be an ink hog. 

One important aspect to keep in mind is the cost of ink.  I didn't spend a lot of time trying to find the ultimate low price for each, but a quick comparison at B&H for the different models will yield some surprising results.  A 700mm catridge for Canon costs ~$288 or 41.1 cents per mm.  If that is too large for you, the 330mm cartridge costs ~$170 or 51.5 cents per mm.  Compare that to the Z3200 ink which costs ~$80 for 130mm or 61.5 cents per mm.  The per mm Z ink cost is 48% higher than the 700mm Canon and 19% higher than the 330mm Canon cartridge.  At these prices, the Canon printer can afford to send some ink to the tank once in a while in order to maintain good operation.

With the Z, it won't break the bank when you need a new cartridge, but you will need them much more often.

Please don't think I am bashing HP.  Quite the contrary, it is a great machine.  But to me the comparison should focus on total cost of ink used, not just volume used. 

Miles
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mattpat

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2018, 03:49:01 AM »

1) Budget at least a half a day and the assistance of two large strong helpers to set this beast up. I bought an iPF2000 last summer, and it took two of my sons and myself to maneuver it up a staircase.

Oh boy, that's good advice. I can see that, on the palette (it's being delivered Tuesday!), it's 382 pounds, which I was expecting—but I was kind of assuming that the shipping company would at least help me get it into my apartment. Perhaps I'll call and confirm, just to be safe! :o

Or you can buy "HP Everyday Satin" 24x100' for B&H with free shipping for $52.

Prints nice!

Now that is something I'll definitely look into! I was already surprised by how inexpensive a 36" roll of HP Plain Inkjet paper was ($39.75 for 300', which I bought for the occasional A0 plotter-esque print), so I'll be happy to add to my cheap paper arsenal.

Thanks to everyone for the continued useful advice, I'll report back on my findings after I've used it for a few weeks!
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Miles

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2018, 09:53:43 AM »

It definitely is a beast.  Think through in advance where you are going to place it and how to get it there.  I had to go around a corner requiring it to be picked up over a banister and then through a 30" door.  The printer will fit, the stand will fit, but the printer on the stand would not.  Also, two guys on one end of the printer probably won't go through a narrow door together. 

Miles
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stockjock

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2018, 03:14:14 PM »


Now that is something I'll definitely look into! I was already surprised by how inexpensive a 36" roll of HP Plain Inkjet paper was ($39.75 for 300', which I bought for the occasional A0 plotter-esque print), so I'll be happy to add to my cheap paper arsenal.


I assume you have printed enough to know that your results very dramatically depending on the paper you use.  I haven't bought that specific paper but my guess is that HP Plain Inkjet paper would be incapable of providing satisfactory photo prints.  Some cheap resin coated papers do provide an acceptable image quality at a low price but at the cost of hand feel, gloss, and longevity.  Hopefully the HP Everyday Satin falls into that category but I bet the Plain Inkjet paper is more like the stuff you would run through a laser printer or use for printing a spreadsheet.
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mattpat

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2018, 03:24:43 PM »

I assume you have printed enough to know that your results very dramatically depending on the paper you use.  I haven't bought that specific paper but my guess is that HP Plain Inkjet paper would be incapable of providing satisfactory photo prints.

Oh absolutely, this is for black-and-white line drawings (I have a significant other who likes to print sewing patterns), not anything photographic. Having cheap paper around for the every-other-day “maintenance” prints is never a bad thing, though!
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MabeHall

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2018, 10:16:04 PM »

Read all the comments on the recent "Canon Pro-1000 ink waste". I experience 7:1 to 10:1 waste ink to paper ink. Canon thinks this is OK. I'm a hobbyist not production printer. It appears the new larger format Canon printers do the same--I believe it is the same head.  Consider the Epson. Read the reviews here on LuLa. Mark does a fantastic job evaluating quality, gamut, etc. and has comparisons between Epson and Canon printers.
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stockjock

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Re: Getting started with a large-format roll printer
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2018, 03:52:20 PM »

It's an RC paper, medium weight. It's my go to photo paper. Down side? You pay less for it. ;-)

Prints very nicely on my 11 year old HP z3100  with gloss optimizer. Have a friend that prefers it over the HP Premium satin paper.

I just got the roll of HP Everyday Pigment Ink Satin Photo Paper that I ordered from B&H.  The paper is thin, flimsy and has quite a bit of curl because of the 2" core but the print quality is impressive for such an inexpensive paper.  I am using the Canon Satin Photo Paper 240 GSM paper type and profile with my Canon iPF8400 and the colors etc. are spot on.  The satin surface handles gloss differential really well even without a gloss optimizer.  I was surprised to see spec sheet from HP lists it as having 200 year fade resistance for indoor applications with the Vivera inks so more archival than I would have thought with that ink set.  Really a nice paper for the price.  Thanks for the tip.
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