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Author Topic: Looking for a thick matt paper  (Read 5131 times)

MHMG

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2018, 09:55:28 pm »

Thanks, Mark; your contributions from your knowledge base are what make for the best of what internet forums can be.

Thanks Wayne. That may be the highest compliment I've ever received for the research I undertake at Aardenburg Imaging and Archives :)

All the best,
Mark
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deanwork

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2018, 10:52:55 pm »

That is also what I was told very recently, that Canson Platine and Epson Platine were both coated in the same location by Felix Schoeller and apparently other brands are selling it as well now. I've been buying both for six months as well as the Rag Photographique and Legacy Fiber and as I described months ago I see no differience in my daily use of either surfaces.

Your comment just now touches on the question I have had for some time. Is the presence of Titanium white pigments in these premium formulations actually an advantage for long term image stability over the minimal use of oba within the paper core of Hahnemühle Photorag 308 and Photorag Ultra Smooth. My memory was that the titanium had a slight edge in the Aardenburg tests, but that tyey were very close. I have a black light exposure unit that I use to view them under and the Canson surfaces mentioned above show no glowing while the Canson rc media glow as does Photorag a little.

It seems what you just said suggests that Titanium White brighteners  as is used in some of these premium papers I've been using ( and championing ) might have their own issues overtime as well? Very few media have them that I'm aware of. Breathing Color Canvas and one or two of their papers seem to be the other use of it besides Canson.

The more I talk to people from these companies and their distributors the more I realize how complex these ink receptor coating "formulas" can be. In many, if not all of these coatings there are various components to them and changes can occur depending on secondary suppliers of additives that go into them and Who is doing the coating  and where the papers are made and the coating process is taking place ( almost always in different countries )- Germany, France, Switzerland, England, China, Korea, Japan, USA etc.

Not to complicate things, just trying to learn. I'm the kind of guy who likes to stick with the same media for as long as possible, but in a global marketplace where companies are being bought and sold fairly regularly, you do the best you can. It seems to me that Hahnemühle has remained the most predictable and consistent over the last 18 years that I have been at this for their cotton fine art papers. I don't know that much about Legion, but they seem to have a good reputation also. All of this coating stuff is so secretive that it is like trying to put a jigsaw puzzle together to see the overall picture of how they differ from one another over time.





Palo Duro SoftGloss Rag is indeed a very nice paper, and widely regarded as another "dead ringer" if not simply rebranded version of Canon Platine Fiber Rag, as is Epson legacy Platine Fiber. Although the base sheet may be sourced form different paper mills, albeit with nearly identical thickness and fiber texture, all of these brands appear to be coated with exact same coating chemistry by Felix Schoeller in Germany.

Palo Duro SoftGloss has a "glossy/luster" coating appearance. Considered to be a plush fine art paper but not matte fine art. Higher price point than RR Aurora Natural as well. It so happens this is also one of the three media now in test at Aardenburg Imaging and printed with the Canon OEM Pro-11/12 ink set which is the ink set used in Judy's Canon Pro-2000 printer. This paper as well as Canon's own Photo Paper Pro luster RC photo media are the other two media in test using the Pro11/12 ink set along with the Moab Entrada Natural. The Canon Pro 11 ink/ RR Palo Duro SoftGloss combination may provide enough lightfastness for many endusers, but both the RRPDSG and Canon PPPL luster type papers are testing now at approximately half the light fade resistance as the matte finish Entrada Natural. Again, this situation speaks plainly to the media coating formulation sensitivity of the latest Canon OEM ink set.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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JudyKonopka

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2018, 11:02:34 pm »

I’m a bit surprised that hairs are being split over the price of paper. Materials are the cheapest part of production, so if the price is $5 or $10/sheet for a $100, $200? or higher print, when the feel, texture and quality are there - it just doesn’t make sense.

When I show prints on Moab Entrsda Rag Natural 300g/m2 people always comment favourably on the feel, the weight, the beauty of the paper when in hand. The few % points higher cost seems worth it.

Hi, I'm not sure if you're referring to the original question about keeping within a particular price range, or if you're referring to someone else's post.  I need to because I have additional costs and need to keep my prices down while still making a profit. A $5 increase would affect my bottom line.
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JudyKonopka

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2018, 11:05:06 pm »

You'll also want to figure out the thickness options.  If you're in a certain price range, this can narrow available options depending on brands and the sizes available.  Most thicker media may be more expensive (this links to brand still and what the product is made of) but is not always the case.

BC paper may be decent, but depending if you need the product quickly vs waiting for it to arrive from another company and then shipping.  B&H states 7-14 day special order for BC paper since they are reselling BC media (both across country from each other).

If you're looking for a poster type paper that's not bright white, maybe look at something like Epson Enhanced Matte 192gsm which is about $55 for 24"x100'.
Otherwise, other options that would be available upfront in a nicer type paper for same size would be Moab Lasal Matte 230gsm for about $80 for 24"x100'. 

LexJet Sunset products usually are Fredrix products (we used to carry Fredrix until they went with a specific reseller).

How quickly are you looking to get the paper?  If samples are available, this can help with testing upfront.  Reviews of the papers are also helpful to make a decision properly.

Atlex.com


I do have the Moab Lasal in sheets.  I am leaning towards very slightly texture paper I think.  I have some Hannamuhle paper samples coming tomorrow from B&H.
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JudyKonopka

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2018, 11:06:29 pm »

You'll also want to figure out the thickness options.  If you're in a certain price range, this can narrow available options depending on brands and the sizes available.  Most thicker media may be more expensive (this links to brand still and what the product is made of) but is not always the case.

BC paper may be decent, but depending if you need the product quickly vs waiting for it to arrive from another company and then shipping.  B&H states 7-14 day special order for BC paper since they are reselling BC media (both across country from each other).

If you're looking for a poster type paper that's not bright white, maybe look at something like Epson Enhanced Matte 192gsm which is about $55 for 24"x100'.

Otherwise, other options that would be available upfront in a nicer type paper for same size would be Moab Lasal Matte 230gsm for about $80 for 24"x100'.

LexJet Sunset products usually are Fredrix products (we used to carry Fredrix until they went with a specific reseller).

How quickly are you looking to get the paper?  If samples are available, this can help with testing upfront.  Reviews of the papers are also helpful to make a decision properly.

Atlex.com

Atlex, I need to roll the paper up and ship it in a tube.  What do you think the max thickness would be 60lb?
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JudyKonopka

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2018, 11:24:07 pm »

You'll also want to figure out the thickness options.  If you're in a certain price range, this can narrow available options depending on brands and the sizes available.  Most thicker media may be more expensive (this links to brand still and what the product is made of) but is not always the case.

BC paper may be decent, but depending if you need the product quickly vs waiting for it to arrive from another company and then shipping.  B&H states 7-14 day special order for BC paper since they are reselling BC media (both across country from each other).

If you're looking for a poster type paper that's not bright white, maybe look at something like Epson Enhanced Matte 192gsm which is about $55 for 24"x100'.

Otherwise, other options that would be available upfront in a nicer type paper for same size would be Moab Lasal Matte 230gsm for about $80 for 24"x100'.

LexJet Sunset products usually are Fredrix products (we used to carry Fredrix until they went with a specific reseller).

How quickly are you looking to get the paper?  If samples are available, this can help with testing upfront.  Reviews of the papers are also helpful to make a decision properly.

Atlex.com

Oh, are you the Atlex people?  That's awesome   :D!  I'd really like speak to you just to understand papers a little better. I spoke with B&H and they basically suggested to buy samples and figure it out.  I was hoping to get some direction, but the sales guy didn't seem like he really knew a lot about papers.

Do you know BFK Rieves printmaking paper?  It has a handmade feel (I think it may be handmade??).  It has a very slight texture.  I certainly couldn't afford a roll of BFK (and I'm pretty certain it's way to thick to come on a roll), but that's the direction I'd like to go in. For me, Moab Lasal is too white and smooth. I have to keep costs in mind as I also need to purchase the same paper in 8.5 x 11, and 13 x 19 along with the roll.   I prefer a natural color, not bright white.  I printed a few samples today using the specific ICC profiles (all from Red River). The linen matte (the only texture sample I had) dulled the colors.  Not sure if that happens with all textured paper (or matte papes), but it was disappointing.   I also need to be able to roll up the print (even the 8.5 x 11), so thickness is definitely an issue.  Can I call you tomorrow at your shop?
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MHMG

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2018, 12:03:36 am »

Atlex, I need to roll the paper up and ship it in a tube.  What do you think the max thickness would be 60lb?

I can't answer for Atlex, but I can give you an answer to your question.

Bear in mind that all roll paper for aqueous inkjet printers like your Canon Pro-2000 are delivered by the manufacturer on either 2 or 3 inch diameter tubes. Even with the superior 3 inch tube diameter, by the time you reach the end of the roll, you will experience noticeable "core set" , ie. print curl, on the prints coming off the printer. Cotton fiber papers exhibit far less "core set" than alphacellulose or RC photo media. Anyway, to flatten a finished print made with roll paper media, you will have to use a home-made or vendor-sold de-curler method.

Now you go to ship them. If you don't de-curl the finished print yourself, but merely put them in a shipping tube the same size diameter as your media was originally spooled on the manufacturer's provided tube, only in the reverse-curl direction, the recipient of the shipping tube will experience less curl than what you started out with in the print coming off the printer. And the customer's framer should be able to cope with that, i.e., de-curl the media further if necessary before framing.

All that said, my personal method for shipping prints is to de-curl the print in house so that it starts out very flat, then ship in a much more benign diameter tube, eg. a 6-12 inch diameter tube size (you can find these larger tube diameters plus end caps online by search query), wrapping the print around the outside of the tube not the inside of the tube with PE foam interleaf available at online sources like Uline.com), then enclosing that assembly in an appropriately sized outer square box (also available at online supply stores like Uline.com). It's a very safe and sure method your customers will appreciate. Cover the costs with a shipping charge if need be or bury it in the print price.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 12:08:16 am by MHMG »
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JudyKonopka

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2018, 12:04:37 am »

Another very nice lower cost matte fine art paper to consider is Red River Aurora Natural (not the bright version). At about $62 for a 24-inch 50 ft roll it comes quite close to Judy's price point. There's a notice on the RR website that the new batches will be a little thicker, i.e., with basis weight = 300gsm. Only downside, is that it's best to order a few rolls at a time since Red River charges shipping fees, whereas other dealers absorb shipping costs in their quoted pricing.

Aurora Natural is also a full cotton base sheet, not alpha cellulose.  Aardenburg Imaging & Archives has tested it in the past with Epson K3 inks, and the scores were about as good as it gets for K3 lightfastness. New tests of this paper on Canon's latest Pro-11 would need to be run to confirm how it performs with Canon's Lucia Pro 11 ink set, but my guess is it will be a pretty good performer on Judy's Canon Pro-2000.  Aurora Natural is OBA-free, slightly but not significantly warm (CIELAB b* value is about 2.0).

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Mark,

Thanks.  I have quite a few samples of Red River and printed on that one today. I like it, but am still looking around. Thanks for your reply!
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MHMG

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2018, 12:16:44 am »

Mark,

Thanks.  I have quite a few samples of Red River and printed on that one today. I like it, but am still looking around. Thanks for your reply!

Hi Judy, It seems you have a clear vision of what you want in terms of initial print media aesthetics and media price point. While all of us hanging out on the LULA printers and printing forum can make suggestions, ultimately it comes down to you.. ie. what media properties matter to you, and what you are willing to pay for them. Media samples from vendors is a great way to discover what you want.

all the best,
Mark
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 12:30:07 am by MHMG »
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Panagiotis

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2018, 01:17:45 am »

Yes that's the trouble Mark, no good inexpensive matte alpha papers that I can find with the possible exception of that Hahnemühle matte that was mentioned in this thread . I have not seen it and is not sold by very many distributors at all so I would worry about its availability in the future. Hahnemühle describes it as "warm".

To have an idea of how warm is the Hahmemuhle Photo Matt Fibre 200 (bottom), Canson Rag Photographique 310 (middle), Innova IFA-45 (top):
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Panagiotis

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2018, 03:10:25 am »

Do you know BFK Rieves printmaking paper?  It has a handmade feel (I think it may be handmade??).  It has a very slight texture.  I certainly couldn't afford a roll of BFK (and I'm pretty certain it's way to thick to come on a roll), but that's the direction I'd like to go in. For me, Moab Lasal is too white and smooth. I have to keep costs in mind as I also need to purchase the same paper in 8.5 x 11, and 13 x 19 along with the roll.   I prefer a natural color, not bright white.  I printed a few samples today using the specific ICC profiles (all from Red River). The linen matte (the only texture sample I had) dulled the colors.  Not sure if that happens with all textured paper (or matte papes), but it was disappointing.   I also need to be able to roll up the print (even the 8.5 x 11), so thickness is definitely an issue.  Can I call you tomorrow at your shop?
It seems like Hahnemuhle Matt Fibre 200 meets many of your requirements. It's not smooth (it has some texture), it's not bright white (it's warm white), you can find it in sheets and it can be easily rolled (or derolled). Hope that helps.
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henrikolsen

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2018, 06:06:48 am »

The Hahnemuhle Matt Fibre 200 has caught my interest now. Has anyone tried to varnish or cold laminate it with good results?
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2018, 07:37:11 am »

On the subject of Hahnemuhle Matt Fibre 200, it is just one of several differently labeled distributions of the same paper. Attached are these Innova 24/25 clones, single and dual side coated. Lab  97.8 -0.3 2.1  as the average for the 7 measured, single coated ones slightly less warm. Felix Schoeller product most likely, InnovaArt was the first company to distribute it, HM followed, MediaJet after that, there will be more companies that distribute it now. Single sided on rolls available as well here, dual sided only as sheets. I use it for posters mainly, best replacement for HP Matte Litho-Realistic that is even warmer (old version, pre BMG). Whether displayed behind glass or bare, insects love the coating and eat white paths through your images. Spray with HM Protection coat or Talens 680 and it will not happen.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 06:10:53 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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deanwork

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2018, 09:17:59 am »

Looks similar to Entrada Natural in color.



To have an idea of how warm is the Hahmemuhle Photo Matt Fibre 200 (bottom), Canson Rag Photographique 310 (middle), Innova IFA-45 (top):
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JudyKonopka

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2018, 08:29:50 pm »

It seems like Hahnemuhle Matt Fibre 200 meets many of your requirements. It's not smooth (it has some texture), it's not bright white (it's warm white), you can find it in sheets and it can be easily rolled (or derolled). Hope that helps.
Another very nice lower cost matte fine art paper to consider is Red River Aurora Natural (not the bright version). At about $62 for a 24-inch 50 ft roll it comes quite close to Judy's price point. There's a notice on the RR website that the new batches will be a little thicker, i.e., with basis weight = 300gsm. Only downside, is that it's best to order a few rolls at a time since Red River charges shipping fees, whereas other dealers absorb shipping costs in their quoted pricing.

Aurora Natural is also a full cotton base sheet, not alpha cellulose.  Aardenburg Imaging & Archives has tested it in the past with Epson K3 inks, and the scores were about as good as it gets for K3 lightfastness. New tests of this paper on Canon's latest Pro-11 would need to be run to confirm how it performs with Canon's Lucia Pro 11 ink set, but my guess is it will be a pretty good performer on Judy's Canon Pro-2000.  Aurora Natural is OBA-free, slightly but not significantly warm (CIELAB b* value is about 2.0).

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Thanks!
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2018, 07:36:04 am »


Do you know BFK Rieves printmaking paper?  It has a handmade feel (I think it may be handmade??).  It has a very slight texture.  I certainly couldn't afford a roll of BFK (and I'm pretty certain it's way to thick to come on a roll), but that's the direction I'd like to go in.

Canson had a BFK Rives inkjet paper quality. 310 gsm weight. It is no longer in the catalog, at least not labeled as such, Arches no longer allows Canson to use that name and possibly is not delivering the paper base either anymore. It was available on roll and in sheets. Threads on the change in canson paper quality have been here. For one customer I had BFK Rives in stock but the first roll had a coating mark over the length of the paper, increasing in visibility so too late to observe on the last half of the roll. Got a smaller roll to reprint the faulty ones. I prefer Hahnemühle Museum Etching, it is even heavier and more consistent in quality.

Handmade paper is hard to find outside the paper mill museums these days, Nepal etc will produce the oriental hand made papers that are still affordable, labor costs even in China become too high for that. Not to mention the spine issues the workers get. It still is my dream to use some old automotive industry robots for real? handmade paper. The common trick now is to produce four deckled edge sheets by using a cylinder sieve machine with at one spot on the circumference a strip that has no or a few holes so leaves a weak line across the still wet paper web, the next conveyor the paper web lands on is running at a slightly higher speed so the web breaks at the weak line and gives the other two edges its deckled appearance. The inkjet "deckled" edge sheets start as rolls that are more or less ripped by hand.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

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mearussi

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2018, 09:24:47 am »

Canson had a BFK Rives inkjet paper quality. 310 gsm weight. It is no longer in the catalog, at least not labeled as such, Arches no longer allows Canson to use that name and possibly is not delivering the paper base either anymore. It was available on roll and in sheets. Threads on the change in canson paper quality have been here. For one customer I had BFK Rives in stock but the first roll had a coating mark over the length of the paper, increasing in visibility so too late to observe on the last half of the roll. Got a smaller roll to reprint the faulty ones. I prefer Hahnemühle Museum Etching, it is even heavier and more consistent in quality.

Handmade paper is hard to find outside the paper mill museums these days, Nepal etc will produce the oriental hand made papers that are still affordable, labor costs even in China become too high for that. Not to mention the spine issues the workers get. It still is my dream to use some old automotive industry robots for real? handmade paper. The common trick now is to produce four deckled edge sheets by using a cylinder sieve machine with at one spot on the circumference a strip that has no or a few holes so leaves a weak line across the still wet paper web, the next conveyor the paper web lands on is running at a slightly higher speed so the web breaks at the weak line and gives the other two edges its deckled appearance. The inkjet "deckled" edge sheets start as rolls that are more or less ripped by hand.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
Have you ever though of using a airgun, like an industrial sprayer? Some can spray really thick material.
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deanwork

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2018, 09:56:46 am »


I agree,  Museum Etching is a much nicer media than BFK anyway.

We usd to use Reeves BFK as a budget printmaking paper in the 1970s for silkscreens that you could buy in bulk cheap when we couldn't afford Arches or the Italian papers. I believe it was an American company that Arches bought out.

I like the idea of using AI and robotics to create handmade paper. Good use of them.

One of my clients brought me some large hemp sheets that she got in some village in south India. Every single aspect of the process she documented on a cell phone was hand done. It just broke my heart to see how much back breaking work that was and how little they were paid for it. This kind of stuff often ends up in art stores like Dick Blick or Sam Flax in the west. I was really surprised how this uncoated unsized hemp held a dot for printing .  The only problem was the black density has this shiny distracting aspect to it. But the texture was great and resolution as good as kozo. . Awagami makes interesting hemp  sheets and hemp blended with kozo or cotton sheets.

John





Canson had a BFK Rives inkjet paper quality. 310 gsm weight. It is no longer in the catalog, at least not labeled as such, Arches no longer allows Canson to use that name and possibly is not delivering the paper base either anymore. It was available on roll and in sheets. Threads on the change in canson paper quality have been here. For one customer I had BFK Rives in stock but the first roll had a coating mark over the length of the paper, increasing in visibility so too late to observe on the last half of the roll. Got a smaller roll to reprint the faulty ones. I prefer Hahnemühle Museum Etching, it is even heavier and more consistent in quality.

Handmade paper is hard to find outside the paper mill museums these days, Nepal etc will produce the oriental hand made papers that are still affordable, labor costs even in China become too high for that. Not to mention the spine issues the workers get. It still is my dream to use some old automotive industry robots for real? handmade paper. The common trick now is to produce four deckled edge sheets by using a cylinder sieve machine with at one spot on the circumference a strip that has no or a few holes so leaves a weak line across the still wet paper web, the next conveyor the paper web lands on is running at a slightly higher speed so the web breaks at the weak line and gives the other two edges its deckled appearance. The inkjet "deckled" edge sheets start as rolls that are more or less ripped by hand.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2018, 10:06:06 am »

Have you ever though of using a airgun, like an industrial sprayer? Some can spray really thick material.

Like creating handmade paper by feeding pulp through a plaster sprayer?  Must be possible I guess. There is that other concept of a spray gun for reinforced polyester where the fibers are cut at the gun and fly together with the resin to the mold. Replace that with paper and size. We all have dreams.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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John Nollendorfs

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Re: Looking for a thick matt paper
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2018, 01:35:08 pm »

Like creating handmade paper by feeding pulp through a plaster sprayer?  Must be possible I guess. There is that other concept of a spray gun for reinforced polyester where the fibers are cut at the gun and fly together with the resin to the mold. Replace that with paper and size. We all have dreams.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

And take it  one step further, Ernst, create a condinuous paper molding machine using this sray technique on the front end of an inkjet printer. Feed it liquid paper, and ink, and out come beautiful prints at the other end! ;-)

John Nollendorfs
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