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Author Topic: What is Sigma up to?  (Read 109072 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2018, 11:02:46 PM »

Quotes, please.

I would like to have the time to search your posts, but I don't... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Two23

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2018, 11:34:21 PM »

I
Nikon will release 2 ranges;
- super high end f1.0/f1.2 primes (that will equal Otus at f1.4) and f2 zooms
- super compact f2.8 primes (could be f2) and f4 zooms

The Sigma will fit right in between.



In the recent past, Nikon has struggled to even match the Sigma ART, let alone surpass it.  Two of my four most used lenses are now Sigma.  The only reason my 24mm is a Nikon is that Sigma has not made a t/s lens.


Kent in SD
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shadowblade

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2018, 11:42:43 PM »


In the recent past, Nikon has struggled to even match the Sigma ART, let alone surpass it.  Two of my four most used lenses are now Sigma.  The only reason my 24mm is a Nikon is that Sigma has not made a t/s lens.


Kent in SD

Their UWAs have also struggled/are outdated, and some other lenses (e.g. 80-400) were weak from the outset.

They've released some outstanding lenses, but also some relative lemons, which Nikon proponents tend to ignore.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2018, 11:47:47 PM »

Their UWAs have also struggled/are outdated, and some other lenses (e.g. 80-400) were weak from the outset.

They've released some outstanding lenses, but also some relative lemons, which Nikon proponents tend to ignore.

Like what exactly?

There are clearly lenses in need for replacement in the line-up of Nikon, that's obvious. But I cannot think of any recent release that isn't best in class or very close to best in class, especially in the high end.

- The super tele lenses
- The 70-200 f2.8 E FL
- The 24-70 f2.8 VR (the Sigma is pretty close 2 years later)
- The 19mm T/S
- The 105mm f1.4
- The 28mm f1.4
- The line up of f1.8 penses, some better than other but none weak.

Now, speaking of relevant topics, the key question moving forward will be how Nikon manages another mount and the related lenses.

As I have written above, I believe that they may have smartly managed competing head to head vs Sigma, but they will still have quite a few new lenses to roll out in a short amount of time if they don't want to look like a Leica SL knock off... (6 lenses announced in 27 months... 3 available).

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 01:18:02 AM by BernardLanguillier »
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shadowblade

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2018, 01:27:43 AM »

Like what exactly?

There are clearly lenses in need for replacement in the line-up of Nikon, that's obvious. But I cannot think of any recent release that isn't best in class or very close to best in class, especially in the high end.

- The super tele lenses
- The 70-200 f2.8 E FL
- The 24-70 f2.8 VR (the Sigma is pretty close 2 years later)
- The 19mm T/S
- The 105mm f1.4
- The 28mm f1.4
- The line up of f1.8 penses, some better than other but none weak.

Cheers,
Bernard

The superteles are also several years newer than the Canon superteles. They keep leapfrogging each other. Of particular note, the 200-400 is the only supertele that's not significantly newer than the Canon equivalent, and the only one that performs significantly worse. I'd expect the new 180-400 to soundly beat the Canon (being 8 years newer) and any new Canon superteles to beat the current Nikons. Technology tends to move like that.

The 80-400 is significantly worse than the Canon and Sony 100-400s. There's an excuse for losing to the Sony, which was a 2017 release (and is even better than the Canon, and sharper even than the Canon 200-400) but not the Canon, which was released at roughly the same time.

The 24-70 VR is probably a wash with the Canon, despite being much newer. Weaker centre, but sharper peripheries and has VR.

The 24-120 is a poor cousin to Canon's 24-105, whether you're comparing it to the old (older than the Nikon) or new version.

The 105mm f/1.4 is great, but is it actually materially better than the Sigma 85/1.4 and 135/1.8 lenses, both of which are significantly cheaper?

Regarding UWAs, they have nothing that comes close to competing with the Canon and Sony 16-35 f/2.8 lenses, or the 11/12-24mm f/4 lenses. The 14-24 was good in its time, but is now 10 years old and really showing its age next to the othera. As for primes, nothing out there really comes close to the Sigma 14/1.8.

As for the 28 f/1.4, it's up against the Otus, and loses. Not that I would hold it against any lens for losing to an Otus. It also isn't as sharp as the Canon 35mm f/1.4, but is wider. It isn't an easy lens to compare, since no-one else has really targeted the 28mm category, and both 24mm amd 35mm are substantially different in both appearance and application.

Basically, Nikon has some spectacular lenses, but also some glaring holes. Canon's lens lineup is probably more complete, with no real holes where performance is unacceptable for the present time, although the lineup is, on the whole, a bit older than Nikon's (UWAs excepted). Sony is really just getting started, but what they've brought out at the high end has mostly been spectacular, the 70-200 f/2.8 notwithstanding (pity it happens to be a key lens - a weak 180mm macro, for instance, is much more forgivable than a weak 70-200 f/2.8). There's been nothing particularly special about Nikon's lenses over the years - on the whole, comparing Nikon and Canon lenses, whoever has the newer lens will have the better lens at that point in time, although there are exceptions on both sides.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2018, 01:54:32 AM »

As for the 28 f/1.4, it's up against the Otus, and loses. Not that I would hold it against any lens for losing to an Otus. It also isn't as sharp as the Canon 35mm f/1.4, but is wider. It isn't an easy lens to compare, since no-one else has really targeted the 28mm category, and both 24mm amd 35mm are substantially different in both appearance and application.

I used to own the Otus and sold in in favour of the Nikon that is:
- very close optically
- twice cheaper
- much smaller
- AF
- weather sealed

Overall the Nikon is the better option. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

shadowblade

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2018, 01:13:49 AM »

I used to own the Otus and sold in in favour of the Nikon that is:
- very close optically
- twice cheaper
- much smaller
- AF
- weather sealed

Overall the Nikon is the better option. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

If I had any use for a 28mm lens, I'd take the Otus any day. The microcontrast is just incredible. But anything I shoot with a 28mm lens is unlikely to be moving.

Basically, the vast majority of lens categories Nikon leads in are  also the ones where Nikon has the newest lens. And the vast majority of categories Canon leads in are the ones where Canon has the newer lens. Neither company has an advantage in lens design - in most cases, the lens advantage comes down to the age of the design rather than who designed it. But Nikon's UWAs are so long in the tooth now that they have a glaring performance hole in their lineup, where their lenses are no longer keeping up with current bodies, whereas Canon has no such hole.
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shadowblade

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2018, 01:14:20 AM »

I would like to have the time to search your posts, but I don't... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

That's because you won't find any.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2018, 01:17:26 AM »

If I had any use for a 28mm lens, I'd take the Otus any day. The microcontrast is just incredible. But anything I shoot with a 28mm lens is unlikely to be moving.

Do you have first hand experience shooting with the Nikon 28mm f1.4?

I have used both lenses myself for real world shooting and they are real close. I would not have sold the Otus at a significant loss otherwise.

Cheers,
Bernard

shadowblade

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2018, 01:26:25 AM »

Do you have first hand experience shooting with the Nikon 28mm f1.4?

I have used both lenses myself for real world shooting and they are real close. I would not have sold the Otus at a significant loss otherwise.

Cheers,
Bernard

No, but I've seen the output side-by-side. Pretty much equally sharp, but more microcontrast on the Otus.

Few things shot at 28mm require autofocus.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2018, 06:57:56 AM »

Few things shot at 28mm require autofocus.

AF speed isn't very important, but I found it challenging to focus the Otus 28mm accurately on the D810. It wouldn't be an issue with a mirrorless camera of course.

Cheers,
Bernard

RobertJ

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2018, 09:02:52 AM »

I suspect Sigma is working on a number of mirrorless lenses - most likely adaptations or improvements on current Art-series lenses

The rumor is that these mirrorless Sigma lenses will be completely redesigned.  In fact, the rumor is that the first lens will be a 35mm 1.2, instead of 1.4, but nobody knows anything for sure.  I'm personally hoping Voigtlander makes more APO lenses for Sony, and Zeiss keeps bringing out the Loxias.  Love the 65mm APO, Loxia 85mm, Loxia 21mm, and will order the rumored Loxia 25mm 2.4, LOL.
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shadowblade

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2018, 06:30:39 AM »

AF speed isn't very important, but I found it challenging to focus the Otus 28mm accurately on the D810. It wouldn't be an issue with a mirrorless camera of course.

Cheers,
Bernard

Fair enough.

Outside of wildlife and long telephoto use, I don't think I've used an eye-level viewfinder in years. All my landscapes are done via live view on the rear LCD.
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davidgp

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2018, 08:36:15 AM »

Ok, rumours are heating up... Looks like Sigma in China is implying to expect the announcement of several FE lenses by the end of Febraury: https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sigma-confirms-many-new-products-will-launched-cp/ (ready to show them in CP+)

davidgp

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2018, 11:31:42 AM »

So... maybe the working theory is that Sigma knows that Canon is going to release soon a FF mirrorless and for that reason they are doing mirrorless lenses now: http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-sends-invites-to-dealers-for-major-mirrorless-presentation-next-month/

Sorry... I couldn't resist making the comment :)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2018, 04:35:59 PM »

This would be amazing news... except for Sony perhaps. ;)

All 3 major manufacturers starting from a blank page with total design freedom.

If isnít a great opportunity to see a clear winner there is never going to be one.

As far as I am concerned I consider this a new start and existing lenses will only be a minor factor.

Iíll pick the best offering in terms of:
- ergonomics/durability
- viewfinder experience
- AF performance on static and moving subjects
- image quality (with a strong focus on low light and colors)
- lens portfolio and roadmap, with a strong focus on lenses look
- battery performance/heat issues
- available of lens adapters/Openess
- communication abilities (how easy will it be to post a cat picture on Facebook)
- schedule of actual availability (paper launches will lose a lot of points...)

I will not consider video performance.

Iíll probably wait 6 months after availability to test and compare. I may test buy the most promising body to validate its value in real world situations before committing to a mount.

For now Sony is my top contender but if the Z mount rumors are true it appears to have better potential. Canon has not let any leak out so we donít know what they are up to. I pray for a 1Ds like announcement...

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 04:54:19 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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davidgp

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2018, 05:16:26 PM »


Iíll pick the best offering in terms of:
- ergonomics/durability
- viewfinder experience
- AF performance on static and moving subjects
- image quality (with a strong focus on low light and colors)
- lens portfolio and roadmap, with a strong focus on lenses look
- battery performance/heat issues
- available of lens adapters/Openess
- communication abilities (how easy will it be to post a cat picture on Facebook)
- schedule of actual availability (paper launches will lose a lot of points...)



Canon and Nikon could offer the best in all that but I highly doubt in openness... Iím sure they release adapters for their lenses but the electronics will not be open, even under NDA like in the case of E mount.



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BernardLanguillier

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2018, 05:37:39 PM »

Canon and Nikon could offer the best in all that but I highly doubt in openness... Iím sure they release adapters for their lenses but the electronics will not be open, even under NDA like in the case of E mount.

We will see. Both Nikon and Canon have a huge amount of confidence in their lens design and manufacturing abilities, they may think they can win even with an open mount.

Cheers,
Bernard

D White

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2018, 03:59:25 PM »

The bottom line is that the "best" full frame system will always be a moving target as the major players continue to leapfrog each other in a lens here and a body there. There are fewer outright dogs any more with almost any lens in the last few years. To that add diminishing returns on improving specific lenses; it would be hard to see much room for improvement over my Canon 300f2.8 II, 400f2.8 II, and 600f4 II and I will likely pass on any upgrades in this area this time around. How much better can they get?

What may matter more fundamentally is the mount adopted for the lens system. Canon did the heavy lifting decades ago with the change to EF, and as such likely will have more and easier options for full frame mirrorless. Nikon is likely forced into a more radical change of their mount, but even so I am sure they have thought of a great and seamless adapter to bridge old to new.

As for Sigma, they have provided almost overnight a wonderful competing selection that in a number of cases surpasses the main players. As a Canon user, but not a dogmatic Canon user, I have recently replaced my Canon 85f1.2 and 135f2 with the Sigma art 85f1.4 and 135f1.8. These greatly surpassed the performance and feel of the Canons I replaced, and I am not sorry I did not wait for the Canon 85f1.4. I would have even picked these two over the Nikon 105f1.4, (yes I tried one just for fun). I also added the Sigma 14f1.8, for which there is nothing else that even comes close in anyones camp. I wish more of the Canon and Nikon lenses felt as well put together as the Sigma art!
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hogloff

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Re: What is Sigma up to?
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2018, 06:43:01 PM »

This would be amazing news... except for Sony perhaps. ;)

All 3 major manufacturers starting from a blank page with total design freedom.

If isnít a great opportunity to see a clear winner there is never going to be one.

As far as I am concerned I consider this a new start and existing lenses will only be a minor factor.

Iíll pick the best offering in terms of:
- ergonomics/durability
- viewfinder experience
- AF performance on static and moving subjects
- image quality (with a strong focus on low light and colors)
- lens portfolio and roadmap, with a strong focus on lenses look
- battery performance/heat issues
- available of lens adapters/Openess
- communication abilities (how easy will it be to post a cat picture on Facebook)
- schedule of actual availability (paper launches will lose a lot of points...)

I will not consider video performance.

Iíll probably wait 6 months after availability to test and compare. I may test buy the most promising body to validate its value in real world situations before committing to a mount.

For now Sony is my top contender but if the Z mount rumors are true it appears to have better potential. Canon has not let any leak out so we donít know what they are up to. I pray for a 1Ds like announcement...

Cheers,
Bernard

There is so little info on the Nikon mirrorless system...how can you even say it has better potential? What in the little info gives you this potential?
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