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Author Topic: Capture One and iq3100 too much default sharpening  (Read 1624 times)

wing1

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Capture One and iq3100 too much default sharpening
« on: December 22, 2017, 06:20:02 AM »

In the Capture One 11 the default sharpening with Phase One iq3100 is 185 with radius 1. In my opinion absolutely too much! Why in your opinion?
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dchew

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Re: Capture One and iq3100 too much default sharpening
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2017, 07:29:20 AM »

That is my opinion too. I’ve reduced the default to 125/0.8.

Dave
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Capture One and iq3100 too much default sharpening
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2017, 07:50:36 AM »

In the Capture One 11 the default sharpening with Phase One iq3100 is 185 with radius 1. In my opinion absolutely too much! Why in your opinion?

Hi,

They seem a bit on the high side, but it is trivial to change the default for a camera to your liking. The required settings may also differ somewhat depending on your lens quality, whether you use diffraction correction and/or lens movements and distortion corrections, and whether/how you ultimately use the setting in combination with your output recipe settings.

But it's simple to change the defaults, and you can also use different Style settings upon import.

Cheers,
Bart
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cgarnerhome

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Re: Capture One and iq3100 too much default sharpening
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2017, 08:57:37 AM »

I have reduced it to 100/1.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Capture One and iq3100 too much default sharpening
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2017, 10:34:59 AM »

Hi,

I guess it is to impress. On a really sharp image, Capture one will oversharpen a lot. As far as I recall, image conservation guidelines demand that MTF shall not exceed 1.05 or possibly 1.1. As far as I recall, default sharpening in C1 pushed my P45+/Planar 100/3.5 to MTF 1.5.

But, there is no warranty you get optimum sharpness in the capture. So, I guess that C1 oversharpens a bit assuming there is some not so good capture.

It has been a while ago I looked at C1 sharpening. The way C1 sharpened at that time, it did not create a lot of halo effects.

Best regards
Erik

In the Capture One 11 the default sharpening with Phase One iq3100 is 185 with radius 1. In my opinion absolutely too much! Why in your opinion?
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Capture One and iq3100 too much default sharpening
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2017, 10:55:01 AM »

Sharpening is entirely taste-based (subjective)*. It's also influenced by equipment, technique, subject matter, and intended output. The appropriate amount of sharpening appropriate for someone shooting hand held with an IMAX 130/2 at f/2 is different than the sharpening appropriate for someone shooting on a tripod with a Schneider 45LS Blue Ring at f/7.

The factory default is the "taste" of a small core group at P1 paying some attention to user feedback and to continuity. If the factory default is other than you prefer, then simply save a lower default.

Personally I find the factory default radius "just about right" but the threshold and amount higher than I prefer.

This applies to nearly any of the settings in a raw file. For example the definition of "0" contrast in C1 (or LR, or aperture) is entirely subjective. Some  will prefer to start at a "+5" while others will prefer to change the base characteristics to Linear.

The important thing is that you can change the default so that, without any per-image action, your images all come in with your preferred starting point. Along with UI customization, this takes up an hour or so of our Capture One Masters Program classes. It's really important to not give undue weight to the defaults established by some Danes; they are smart and well intentioned people but they can't fine tune the factory default (settings or UI) to your individual and specific needs, wants, and tastes – only you can do that.

*Assuming that we're talking about creative image making rather than technically-oriented imaging like art reproduction, machine vision, scientific measurement etc.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 11:05:22 AM by Doug Peterson »
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E.J. Peiker

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Re: Capture One and iq3100 too much default sharpening
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2017, 07:00:00 PM »

My opinion, being the owner of a number of cameras and systems including an IQ3100, is that the default sharpening of C1 is a tad on the heavy handed side.  I use 120/.8 which is very similar to, but independently derived as the comments above.  And as Doug wrote above, I use +5 for default contrast, also independently derived.
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yaya

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Re: Capture One and iq3100 too much default sharpening
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2017, 02:04:34 AM »

In the Capture One 11 the default sharpening with Phase One iq3100 is 185 with radius 1. In my opinion absolutely too much! Why in your opinion?

Too much for printing? Screen viewing? What type of paper? What screen? Viewing distance? Up/down scaling etc. etc...

BR
Yair
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Capture One and iq3100 too much default sharpening
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2017, 02:20:52 AM »

Hi Yair,

I guess that we discuss capture sharpening. If you check out Bruce Fraser/Jeff Schewe book on sharpening it is quite obvious that you want to avoid oversharpening at the capture stage.

Now, C1 is pretty good at supressing sharpening artefacts, but that is no reason to oversharpen. It makes a lot of sense to split sharpening in three parts:


  • Input sharpening that essentially corrects for lens aberrations, diffraction, OLP-filtering and pixel aperture. But, input sharpening should not oversharpen.
  • Output sharpening is applied on output and it is optimized for the receiving media.
  • Between input and output we can have creative sharpening, like local enhancement of sharpness or softening say skin.

Sharpening is quite measurable and reproduction guidelines set limits on sharpening.

It could be that Capture One default sharpening is part of the Medium Format look. I also could suggest that it is designed to cover up minor focusing errors.

Update:

I did run some quick checks on the DPReview IQ3100MP image and I don't think Capture One 10 oversharpens low to medium frequency detail. MTF doesn't go above 1.1. It could be it oversharpens high frequency detail. That is good for pixel peeping, but I don't know how it affects print.

Best regards
Erik

Too much for printing? Screen viewing? What type of paper? What screen? Viewing distance? Up/down scaling etc. etc...

BR
Yair
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 03:24:01 AM by ErikKaffehr »
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yaya

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Re: Capture One and iq3100 too much default sharpening
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2017, 02:26:34 AM »

Hi Yair,

I guess that we discuss capture sharpening. If you check out Bruce Fraser/Jeff Schewe book on sharpening it is quite obvious that you want to avoid oversharpening at the capture stage.

Now, C1 is pretty good at supressing sharpening artefacts, but that is no reason to oversharpen. It makes a lot of sense to split sharpening in three parts:

Best regards
Erik

Hi Erik, my questions to the OP were trying to find out how he has formed an opinion? An image that looks oversharpened on screen may look great on paper, regardless of what marks it gets from FADGI or Metamorfoze.

BR

Yair
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Capture One and iq3100 too much default sharpening
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2017, 05:31:57 AM »

Hi Erik, my questions to the OP were trying to find out how he has formed an opinion? An image that looks oversharpened on screen may look great on paper, regardless of what marks it gets from FADGI or Metamorfoze.

Hi Yair,

While I agree that more information can help to better judge a statement like "oversharpened", there is something else to consider.

Since the introduction of "Diffraction Correction" in Capture One, the Capture Sharpening part of the workflow has improved a lot, especially for those who have to use narrow apertures. Unfortunately, that's (so far) the only deconvolution (or spatial frequency based) sharpening that can be applied to our captures with Capture One. It would have helped if the USM based regular sharpening had been revamped as well.

The current (legacy?) defaults for many cameras seem to be on the heavy side, especially after Diffraction Correction was introduced. This is also because we now have a possibility to Proof output sharpening settings (unfortunately also still only USM-based). The Proof preview allows to visually fine-tune our settings for a specific output size (leaving a judgment call for output-media effects).

So sharpening can still be improved, and the default settings adjusted accordingly, IMHO of course. Lucky for us, the user can set his/her own defaults pretty easily.

Cheers,
Bart
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Bo_Dez

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Re: Capture One and iq3100 too much default sharpening
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2017, 07:28:16 AM »

I find Capture One a bit too much on the aggressive side for sharpening in general from the cameras I have tried. Really needs to be treated with care.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Capture One and iq3100 too much default sharpening
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2017, 08:21:48 AM »

Hi Yair,

The approach suggested by Bruce Fraser/Jeff Schewe makes a lot of sense. After all it is not the responsibility of the photographer to sharpen the image for it's final use. So Bruce/Jeff suggest a scheme where initial sharpening is made to compensate for softness induced by residual lens aberrations, diffraction, OLP-filtering and pixel aperture. All these data are available, more or less. with a known lens profile. To be more specific: residual aberrations are lens dependent, diffraction is physics, OLP-filtering may be absent but there are known best practices and programs like Lighroom know about OLP-strength. Pixel aperture is a property of the back.

The task of input sharpening is to compensate for these issues. It is highly unprobable that Capture One knows about the printing process used at the destination. So, it is reasonable to expect that C1 or any raw processor delivers an image which compensates fully for the diffusion of the image in capture.

Sharpening for output needs to be done at output size and it is best done by those who provide the printing service. Sharpening for output needs to consider the printing surface, diffusion of inks, ETC.

The guidelines by Fogra or Metamorfose are not marks but instructions for maintaining acceptable reproduction. To me it seems that they make a lot of sense.

Best regards
Erik

Hi Erik, my questions to the OP were trying to find out how he has formed an opinion? An image that looks oversharpened on screen may look great on paper, regardless of what marks it gets from FADGI or Metamorfoze.

BR

Yair
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yaya

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Re: Capture One and iq3100 too much default sharpening
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2017, 08:14:58 AM »

Hi Yair,

The approach suggested by Bruce Fraser/Jeff Schewe makes a lot of sense. After all it is not the responsibility of the photographer to sharpen the image for it's final use. So Bruce/Jeff suggest a scheme where initial sharpening is made to compensate for softness induced by residual lens aberrations, diffraction, OLP-filtering and pixel aperture. All these data are available, more or less. with a known lens profile. To be more specific: residual aberrations are lens dependent, diffraction is physics, OLP-filtering may be absent but there are known best practices and programs like Lighroom know about OLP-strength. Pixel aperture is a property of the back.

The task of input sharpening is to compensate for these issues. It is highly unprobable that Capture One knows about the printing process used at the destination. So, it is reasonable to expect that C1 or any raw processor delivers an image which compensates fully for the diffusion of the image in capture.

Sharpening for output needs to be done at output size and it is best done by those who provide the printing service. Sharpening for output needs to consider the printing surface, diffusion of inks, ETC.

The guidelines by Fogra or Metamorfose are not marks but instructions for maintaining acceptable reproduction. To me it seems that they make a lot of sense.

Best regards
Erik

All well and true but isn't necessarily relevant if we don't know what the OP means by "too much default sharpening"...

BR
Yair
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