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Author Topic: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?  (Read 54457 times)

Telecaster

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #140 on: December 15, 2017, 02:21:56 pm »

Astrophotographers have been using monochrome sensors plus filters for quite some time.  The reason is increased resolution and sensitivity compared to a bayer matrix.

And also to allow narrowing the captured wavelength spectrum and have that apply equally to each photosite.

-Dave-
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #141 on: December 15, 2017, 04:04:11 pm »

Wonder if the color mixing function to combine all three monochrome captures for each RGB is just as robust and precise.

Precisely capturing what is there is one thing, making it look right according to human perception is another.
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BJL

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #142 on: December 15, 2017, 05:23:21 pm »

It seems to me that I am in the minority that understands that less is more. It isn't about sharpness, or Bayer, or filtering, or whatever. It is about deliberately reducing options when someone understands why less is more. The abundance of choice can often be crippling.
I am certainly one who does not share your rather hipsterish preference—which you elevate to a claim of superior understanding—for avoiding some small decisions by locking oneself into one big decision, at substantial expense. For one thing, auto white balance with raw files as backup is almost always enough to avoid decision stress, and for another, if I feel the occasional need to relieve myself of worrying about color fine-tuning, in place of deciding "I'll take the monochrome camera only today", I can decide to put my EM-5 in monochrome mode until the color-ennui passes—and by the way, with monochrome preview in the EVF. But more often, I would just dismiss color-angst entirely while photographing, and then batch convert to monochrome, while having the easy option of retrieving color from the raw files later if I ever decide that for some of those images, more is in fact more.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #143 on: December 16, 2017, 02:58:29 pm »

I am certainly one who does not share your rather hipsterish preference—which you elevate to a claim of superior understanding...

Nothing to elevate... being in a minority doesn't not equate to being superior. It is just a different view, different understanding. But if you want some academic research into how abundance of choice can be crippling, I can provide that too.

BJL

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #144 on: December 16, 2017, 03:12:26 pm »

Nothing to elevate... being in a minority doesn't not equate to being superior. It is just a different view, different understanding. But if you want some academic research into how abundance of choice can be crippling, I can provide that too.
Apologies for my inferior (or just "different") understanding then: I took the words "I am in the minority that understands that less is more" to mean that your minority understands something that the rest of us do not.

What I do understand is that indeed, in some cases, an excess of choice can hamper decision making — but I do not see that this has any relevance to the current situation of cameras that are/are not capable of recording color information.  The only difference in the decision making is "do I carry the monochrome body today?" vs "do I use the monochrome setting today?" or "do I batch convert to monochrome today?".


(I forget off-hand the name for the fallacy of arguing from something being true "in general" or "often" or "in many cases" to the conclusion that it holds in a particular case!)
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #145 on: December 16, 2017, 03:46:42 pm »

... The only difference in the decision making is "do I carry the monochrome body today?" vs "do I use the monochrome setting today?" or "do I batch convert to monochrome today?"...

Ah, but you see, for those who might prefer the Monochrom, there is no decision making of the sort needed whatsoever. One less choice to make getting out of the door. The only relevant decision to make is what to shoot, not with what.

And just to be clear, and if you missed my earlier posts, I do not include myself in the above category. I am just trying to understand those who do.

Jim Kasson

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #146 on: December 16, 2017, 04:22:58 pm »

Ah, but you see, for those who might prefer the Monochrom, there is no decision making of the sort needed whatsoever. One less choice to make getting out of the door. The only relevant decision to make is what to shoot, not with what.

You do have to decide what filter to use, and if you should use one at all. For some subjects, this is not a trivial decision.

Jim

Telecaster

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #147 on: December 16, 2017, 11:53:52 pm »

You do have to decide what filter to use, and if you should use one at all. For some subjects, this is not a trivial decision.

This one, of course. Recommended for general use with "good over-all colour sensitivity" b&w film in The Contax Way, c. 1962.  :)

-Dave-
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BJL

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #148 on: December 17, 2017, 12:01:40 pm »

Ah, but you see, for those who might prefer the Monochrom, there is no decision making of the sort needed whatsoever. One less choice to make getting out of the door.
I agree that this freedom from choice is true once someone makes the decision that all their digital photography will be colorless. I was about to retort that this only applies to a tiny fraction of digital camera users, but on second thought, it might indeed be true of a substantial proportion of those who choose to do their digital photography with a Leica.
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Rob C

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #149 on: December 17, 2017, 03:43:39 pm »

Thing is, perhaps if having one of each type of Leica isn't a financial problem, you can have the best of both worlds? And you can even use the same lenses!

Considering I've been using an iPad camera these past couple of day, I think photography can become far too intellectualised unless it's for earning one's crust. The single, really positive aspect of that device as camera, is the viewfinder. So generous and close to what you think you may be getting. But the ergonomics are truly dreadful! I kept switching on the video just by tuning the thing from horizontal to vertical. And banging the screen to make the exposure really is madness. At least a little button on the side, please!

;-)

Rob

Jim Kasson

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #150 on: December 17, 2017, 03:47:37 pm »


Considering I've been using an iPad camera these past couple of day, I think photography can become far too intellectualised unless it's for earning one's crust.

You might want to pick up some accessories for your iPad:

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/sloof-lirpa-ipad-accessories/

Jim

ripgriffith

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #151 on: December 17, 2017, 04:33:44 pm »

Back to your original text: After all, you compose with a B&W image in the electronic viewfinder, so what you see might be expected to influence your composition.
Should probably be: After all, I compose with a B&W image in the electronic viewfinder, so what I see might be expected to influence MY composition.  Controversial no, kind of silly, lumping every photographer into a camp that doesn't affect them all, yes.
Derailed is your term for someone who doesn't suffer your issues composing an image, and stating that fact on a forum?
In terms of your difficulties composing an image in B&W or otherwise, can you not get help?  :o
Like Telecaster, you should only speak for yourself.
Would the two of you just STFU!
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digitaldog

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #152 on: December 17, 2017, 04:47:28 pm »

Would the two of you just STFU!
Speaking ONLY for myself, not a chance.
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Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Rob C

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #153 on: December 18, 2017, 02:25:04 pm »

You might want to pick up some accessories for your iPad:

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/sloof-lirpa-ipad-accessories/

Jim

Huh! The moment I tried to place my order for the full complement of goodies, up came the dreaded announcement that all available stock had been pre-sold and that the manufacturing complex had been closed for redevelopment as a fast-foods emporium at the very trail car park where the company's original inspiration had materialised.

All these multinationals end up with similar psychologies, even the little ones.

:-(

Rob

Jim Kasson

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #154 on: December 18, 2017, 03:36:45 pm »

Huh! The moment I tried to place my order for the full complement of goodies, up came the dreaded announcement that all available stock had been pre-sold and that the manufacturing complex had been closed for redevelopment as a fast-foods emporium at the very trail car park where the company's original inspiration had materialised.

All these multinationals end up with similar psychologies, even the little ones.

:-(

Rob

+1

patjoja

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #155 on: January 06, 2018, 03:05:38 am »

Leica has a Monochrome camera. No color information, from what I understand.

I have been told that doing B&W this way gives a higher quality image file for B&W.

Is this correct?

Is there an actual advantage to a fully monochrome sensor? If so, does it react to filtration as film does? So I can actually choose a wratten 23/25/29 and similar rather than rely on nebulous sliders in post processing programs?

Sure would like to see a Fuji X-Pro2M (monochrome) as I sure can't afford the Leica gear.

Sorry, I have not read all the posts in this lengthy thread, so forgive me if this point has been made.

When the Leica Monochrom first came out in 2012 it was competing with color cameras with similar MP resolutions and a Bayer matrix...advantage Leica.  In 2017-2018,  with cameras like the Sony A7rIII and it's 42 MP resolution, it would seem Leica is losing that advantage, especially considering the cost.  Just my opinion.

I think this Wikipedia article is an interesting read for a little context.

Patrick
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patjoja

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #156 on: January 06, 2018, 10:34:42 am »

Sorry, I have not read all the posts in this lengthy thread, so forgive me if this point has been made.

When the Leica Monochrom first came out in 2012 it was competing with color cameras with similar MP resolutions and a Bayer matrix...advantage Leica.  In 2017-2018,  with cameras like the Sony A7rIII and it's 42 MP resolution, it would seem Leica is losing that advantage, especially considering the cost.  Just my opinion.

I think this Wikipedia article is an interesting read for a little context.

Patrick

As a further note, the Leica Monochrom uses the Kodak KAF-18500 sensor.  With it's larger pixel size, I would think the Monochrom would make a pretty decent astro camera  (albiet a very expensive one).  I'm guessing though that most dedicated astro devices are using different CCD sensors nowadays...many companies are favoring Sony's sensors.  For example, QSI is introducing Sony sensors because of their high quantum efficiency and extremely low noise.

Patrick
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #157 on: January 06, 2018, 10:53:49 am »

... I think this Wikipedia article is an interesting read for a little context.

From that link (bold mine):

Quote
Leica claim that the camera delivers 100% sharper images than monochrome images derived from a camera with a color sensor (of comparable megapixels).

Any comments from experts on that one? Sounds like an exaggeration to me.

Jim Kasson

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Re: Monochrome camera vs converting from color?
« Reply #159 on: January 06, 2018, 11:43:42 am »

From that link (bold mine):

Any comments from experts on that one? Sounds like an exaggeration to me.

I suspect that they are just calculating resolution assuming that a Bayer CFA camera would need four pixels to produce one RGB pixel. I think it is actually true, in the special case of subjects that are narrow-wavelength enough so that there is virtually no response in the green or red sensor sites, or the the green or blue ones. In that case, assuming response from a monochromatic sensor to those subjects, four times the number of photosites would be involved in the mono camera, and thus the resolution would be twice as good (the pitch would be half).

Note that slanted edge testing won't detect this increase in resolution, since it only depends on photosite aperture, not pitch.

I'm guessing that the marketing folks didn't run that phrasing by the engineers before they published it.

Jim
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