New IQ4 Feature - Frame Averaging

[Doug Peterson]

The Phase One IQ4 may not yet be shipping, but it's already received its first new feature: Frame Averaging.

You can read about it here: Phase One IQ4 Frame Averaging.

It's likely this feature will be enabled in the pre-production unit that DT will have at Photo Plus Expo in NYC in a couple weeks.

[stevenfr]

Looks interesting, I look forward to trying it.

Steven

[eronald]

Looks interesting, I look forward to trying it.

Steven

Show us the photos!

Edmund

[alifatemi]

Not bad at all; It seems their R&D works hard around the clock!

[Doug Peterson]

Show us the photos!

Agreed! The idea is compelling, but remains just a tease until we can see some raw files with/without this technique applied. We expect to have a pre-production / near-final back at Photo Plus Expo in NYC in two weeks. It's our busiest week of the year so it's unlikely I'll have the chance to prep, execute, analyze, write up, and share a test that week, but hopefully I will in the week after.

Of course if you're going to be in NYC for that show you can see it for yourself at our (Digital Transitions Phase One) booth.

[narikin]

Yeash, it seems that Phase is adapting the techniques of cellphone 'computational photography' to their high end digital backs.

'Tail wags dog' anyone?

This is an established technique in iPhone and Google Pixel phones, in fact they just upped the game on things, especially the Pixel 3. (DPreview article) Which goes a significant step beyond what Apple does, providing 'computational RAW' using data from up to 15 frames into one DNG!

Don't mean to sound too cynical, I'm happy for high end photography to embrace some of mobile phone photography's innovations.
(+my IQ4 is on order, as is a Pixel 3)

[Paul2660]

From reading the article, it seems like it's a form of HDR in camera, outputting a single raw file.  I am sure it's P1 unique.

Noting that it uses the ES shutter, curious about issues with Rolling shutter, on subjects that tend to show the issues of rolling shutter on the P1 backs, i.e. larger objects moving across the frame. 

Also, curious as to overall how it handles objective movement of finer things, mainly leaves, for outdoor work.  With most HDR (traditional capture as separate raw files and worked together with a particular software), aliasing due to movement of leaves and similar subject matter can and does create problems.  Indoors with static subject matter, I can easily see this working and for Architecture but interesting in seeing how it works on a day with a 15 to 20 mph wind blowing in the trees and you are forced to the 1/250 to 1/500 shutter speeds to attempt stopping motion.

Also curious how this will work with situations where you are limited to a very slow shutter speed, in the 1" to 10 second range.  The Averaging might allow for much better overall results.

But to be totally honest, if you can pull 4 stops out of a stock file and have a clean file, (can't do that with the 3100, at least mine won't), that increase alone is impressive.  I am still curious what the stop range pull will be for ISO 200 up to ISO 800. 

Paul C

[mcbroomf]

This feature has been available as a downloadable app for Sony cameras for a long time (up to the 3 series which removed the option to download apps, to the gnashing teeth of many!).  Without the app it's still pretty straightforward to do the same in PS on multiple exposures.

[Jack Hogan]

Yeash, it seems that Phase is adapting the techniques of cellphone 'computational photography' to their high end digital backs.

I think it's a good idea, it's a good way to actually make those 16 bit raw files be useful (the last couple of bits there were wasted until now).  I would not call it computational photography if all they do is add/average frames up.  In that case I think the result can be considered real pristine raw.

Jack

[cgarnerhome]

If it can eliminate strong ND filters then it would be a very useful feature for me.  I'm certainly curious about this potential feature and hopefully it works in real life.  As Paul said, hard to figure out how it would handle moving leaves etc.

[mcbroomf]

Frame averaging doesn't "deal" with moving leaves.  The end result is just like an ND filter, ie the leaf motion is smoothed out.  If the scene has a lot of movement in it that you want to freeze this is not the app to use, any more than it would be to use an ND filter.  It does the same as an ND filter though with moving water for example (if you like and want that effect), but it has the advantage of giving you cleaner shadows.

This is your equivalent ND filter table and if you use it a lot for high ND you see why it uses the ES (to stop wear on the FP shutter).  If you don't have a mk 1 or 2 Sony with the app then you have to do the frame averaging in PS.
1 stop (2 shots)
2 stops (4 shots)
3 stops (8 shots)
4 stops (16 shots)
5 stops (32 shots)
6 stops (64 shots)
7 stops (128 shots)
8 stops (256 shots)
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1403764/

[JaapD]

The article mentions “Averaging tool that can improve shadow quality (reduce shadow noise)”. Be aware that this is only partially true as it’s only applicable to random noise. The Pixed Pattern Noise remains unaffected.

Regards,
Jaap.

[Doug Peterson]

As pointed out here the article contained an error: the decrease in noise is expected to be at the typical frame averaging rate of roughly 1 stop of noise reduction with four reads and 2 stops of noise reduction with sixteen reads. Sorry for the error; I've corrected it in the article.

I've added a summary statement in the article that reads:
"Frame averaging techniques are possible with any camera. But frame averaging often call for many frames, even dozens or more for some use cases. So having the IQ4's ES do the heavy lifting in an automated and user-friendly way, in camera, is transformative to the use of this technique. Doing frame-averaging manually is possible, but highly tedious and time consuming. All indications are the IQ4 tool will make it just another technique that can be easily applied to specific kinds of scenes. In this way it's reminiscent of the automated Focus Stacking Tool in the XF; focus stacking is possible with nearly any camera, but after you've done a full day of focus stacking with the XF it's unimaginable to do it on another platform."

[Wayne Fox]

The article mentions “Averaging tool that can improve shadow quality (reduce shadow noise)”. Be aware that this is only partially true as it’s only applicable to random noise. The Pixed Pattern Noise remains unaffected.

Regards,
Jaap.

I assume they still use a dark frame capture to help manage fixed pattern noise?

[eronald]

I don't understand why they don't at least have some engineering pix of a studio scene.

Edmund

[BJL]

Frame averaging doesn't "deal" with moving leaves.  The end result is just like an ND filter, ie the leaf motion is smoothed out.

That may well be the case with what Phase One does for now, but at the cutting edge of image processing innovation (Android phones and iPhones), there can be separation of moving subjects (so long as they are adequately lit), using maybe just the first frame for those parts of the scene, while stacking for stationary, less well-lit parts. Computational photography strikes again!

[eronald]

That may well be the case with what Phase One does for now, but at the cutting edge of image processing innovation (Android phones and iPhones), there can be separation of moving subjects (so long as they are adequately lit), using maybe just the first frame for those parts of the scene, while stacking for stationary, less well-lit parts. Computational photography strikes again!

Jeeves: Would Sir wish hard edges or blurred edges on his palm fronds, this fine evening?
Bertie: I wish you weren't just a computer, then you could bring me a Gin and Tonic. But for a disembodied voice you're all right, old thing!



Edmund