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Author Topic: New PC build vs iMac  (Read 6812 times)

montylparker

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2017, 03:37:06 AM »

Gee, let me guess .......  I bet you are an APPLE fan.
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Farmer

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2017, 04:59:36 AM »

Windows has made strides in recent years, but Macs are still easier to deal with. One important difference is that color management is still a long way off - Windows is far better than it was in the "what's color management" days of Windows 7 and earlier, but it's no Mac even today... the same is true of high-res screens. Apple handles them natively, while Windows needs a degree of application-level support, which many, but not all applications have. Couple that with the security foibles on Windows (again, better than they were, but lousy by Apple standards), and I'd still call the Mac a far better choice if you can make the limited hardware selection work for you. Neither is perfect - there's some VERY innovative PC hardware out there, while most Macs are nice, but generic (no touch /pen screens or other innovative interfaces), and some of them have surprising limitations (16 GB RAM limits on expensive 15" laptops). The new and expensive iMac Pro comes with a super-glossy monitor with less than Adobe RGB gamut - on a machine like that, that's not the most likely monitor for the user to prefer - I suspect a lot of iMac pros will wind up with the glossy screen being used as a (very expensive) secondary display while an Eizo or other pro color monitor is the main screen.

Colour managed workflows and screens etc have been available under Windows for a long time.  What exactly do you think is missing?

My Surface Book has a 3000x2000 screen that is beyond amazing and it's all handled natively.

Apple is actually very slow compared to Microsoft when it comes to security issues, and the only reason that it's not targeted more is because it's far less used, particularly in business.  If they ever become mainstream enough, they'll be targeted and the flaws will be exposed just as easily.

The Mac is a far better choice if you prefer Macs.  It's pretty much impossible to make an objective call in favour of either one above the other without very specific usage cases.
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Phil Brown

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2017, 06:09:40 PM »

Apple is actually very slow compared to Microsoft when it comes to security issues, and the only reason that it's not targeted more is because it's far less used, particularly in business.  If they ever become mainstream enough, they'll be targeted and the flaws will be exposed just as easily.

The Mac is a far better choice if you prefer Macs.  It's pretty much impossible to make an objective call in favour of either one above the other without very specific usage cases.

Macs have been around for 30 years. I don't think it is valid to wheel out the old "security is not an issue because there are less of them" line. Security updates come just as rapidly when needed I think. In practice, there are less issues and they are less catastrophic with Mac OS because it has a protected kernel and requires an admin password to make significant changes.

In this business, being photography I think that they are mainstream enough, even the majority. Most big business using PCs have a significant IT staff which small business can not afford.
I agree that in the end it is a personal choice but is your business building and fixing computers or selling photos?

Speaking from my experience, my main machine is a 2013, my laptop and file server are a 2010 and my standby is a 2008. All work fine and some are running software from 2001. My wife has had 3 PCs in succession in the same time and the last one won't run Outlook from a couple of years ago on Win10.
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Farmer

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2017, 02:27:18 AM »

Macs have been around for 30 years. I don't think it is valid to wheel out the old "security is not an issue because there are less of them" line. Security updates come just as rapidly when needed I think. In practice, there are less issues and they are less catastrophic with Mac OS because it has a protected kernel and requires an admin password to make significant changes.

In this business, being photography I think that they are mainstream enough, even the majority. Most big business using PCs have a significant IT staff which small business can not afford.
I agree that in the end it is a personal choice but is your business building and fixing computers or selling photos?

Speaking from my experience, my main machine is a 2013, my laptop and file server are a 2010 and my standby is a 2008. All work fine and some are running software from 2001. My wife has had 3 PCs in succession in the same time and the last one won't run Outlook from a couple of years ago on Win10.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263393/global-pc-shipments-since-1st-quarter-2009-by-vendor/

Macs are a small portion of PC sales and OS X / MacOS hasn't been around for 30 years.  Honestly, outside of niche industries, they're a small player (not insignificant by any means, but small), and these days some people with Macs are running a lot of Windows, so the amount of OS X / MacOS time is reduced a little there.

If your wife's PC won't run Outlook that's 2 years old under Win 10, you've done something wrong.  You can run just about every Windows program that's 32bit or 64bit under Win 10, regardless of age.

The reality is, as I said, Macs aren't targeted because there's far fewer of them.  They still have vulnerabilities and Apple is known for taking longer to fix them than Microsoft - it's just a fact.  They're not slow in the sense of taking weeks or anything, but they're much slower on average.  It doesn't really matter, overall.
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Phil Brown

fredjeang2

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2017, 04:03:24 AM »

I always worked with both and quite frankly, both are tools to make the job done; being more a matter of user preferences and/or business model.
For example, it was common to see both in a collaborative environment: designers, retouchers, editors...on Mac while colorists, fx artists... on PC.
PCs were crap compared to Macs when it comes to independent professions, small facilities, because they needed maintenance and computer knowledge not every business could afford.
But nowadays one or the other really does not matter unless you have a specific reason:  a proprietary software or media format available such as FCP or Prores, or the use of shortcuts etc...
Macs have generally a better built quality. I dropped one day a notebook that fell just on the edge corner: nothing! Not a scratch. If it had happened with a PC...well...
Then the crapfactor, which is psychologic. All the collective imagery that surrounds PCs was less sophisticated. Cool factor zero. PCs is popular and common, Mac is the desired object that could be exhibited in an art gallery. And that, from a marketing perspective, changes it all.
But IMO, the area where Mac has a great advantage today is not the computer world against PCs but the iPhone.
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hogloff

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2017, 08:53:48 AM »

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263393/global-pc-shipments-since-1st-quarter-2009-by-vendor/

Macs are a small portion of PC sales and OS X / MacOS hasn't been around for 30 years.  Honestly, outside of niche industries, they're a small player (not insignificant by any means, but small), and these days some people with Macs are running a lot of Windows, so the amount of OS X / MacOS time is reduced a little there.

If your wife's PC won't run Outlook that's 2 years old under Win 10, you've done something wrong.  You can run just about every Windows program that's 32bit or 64bit under Win 10, regardless of age.

The reality is, as I said, Macs aren't targeted because there's far fewer of them.  They still have vulnerabilities and Apple is known for taking longer to fix them than Microsoft - it's just a fact.  They're not slow in the sense of taking weeks or anything, but they're much slower on average.  It doesn't really matter, overall.

But does one really care why there are way fewer security issues with Macs...bottom line there are fewer security related issues on the Mac.

Look at the windows world, a whole industry was created to deal with the lack of security on windows.
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Farmer

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2017, 10:47:29 PM »

But does one really care why there are way fewer security issues with Macs...bottom line there are fewer security related issues on the Mac.

Look at the windows world, a whole industry was created to deal with the lack of security on windows.

Yes, you should care, because if you think that Macs are somehow invincible, you'll get caught out (as many users do).

I've never had a security issue since Win 3.1 (first version I used).  If you actually think for a moment before you click something, you'll be 99.9% protected.  However, that's not the average user.
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Phil Brown

traderjay

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2017, 09:05:31 PM »

Yes, you should care, because if you think that Macs are somehow invincible, you'll get caught out (as many users do).

I've never had a security issue since Win 3.1 (first version I used).  If you actually think for a moment before you click something, you'll be 99.9% protected.  However, that's not the average user.

In one of my jobs, I had a quarterly seven figure budget allocated to agency for ad and creative deliverable. The first question that I ask an agency when I onboard them if they are a mac house. If yes, I require a 30 to 45% discount on all their fees since I am charged by the hour. Why? Because mac uses outdated hardware that doubles or triples alot of the development and rendering time and there is no way in hell I am paying that out of my budget because they are in "love" with a platform. I saved so much money on agency fees that allowed me to not only get extraordinary amount of bonus, but to also equip my team with the dual socket XEON PC workstations that will murder any mac performance.

In my current work, I have a 18 core XEON workstation, and a dual socket 44 core workstation all under $10K, no mac will ever come close that type of price to performance ratio. As for security issues they are moot because any system used for sensitive or unreleased works are typically offline or in segmented lan. 
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BobShaw

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2017, 03:40:39 PM »

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.
They gave you a 45% discount because they had already trebled the price when you walked in the door.
I wonder how they got to the moon with computers less powerful than modern calculators.
The majority of security issues are caused by users so segmented LANs don't help much.
Use what you want to use
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traderjay

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2017, 03:54:26 PM »

They gave you a 45% discount because they had already trebled the price when you walked in the door.
I wonder how they got to the moon with computers less powerful than modern calculators.
The majority of security issues are caused by users so segmented LANs don't help much.
Use what you want to use

Engineers in each time era use what they have at their disposal. Using Mac security as an argument over PC superiority is weak at best.
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Rand47

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2017, 05:31:35 PM »

Come on guys - we don't need yet another PC vs Mac argument.

It doesn't help the OP (who has already declared being platform agnostic).  Different people like different systems and that's all there is to it.

+1  Especially given that if you were blindfolded, and then put in front of a monitor with a “generic keyboard and mouse” you’d not be able to tell which platform you were using if all you could see was LR and Photoshop!  And, as far as I’m concerned the “other differences” in how the OS’s look and act are a matter of complete indifference.  They have become “distinctions without a difference.”

Rand
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Craig Lamson

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2017, 05:44:42 PM »

+1  Especially given that if you were blindfolded, and then put in front of a monitor with a “generic keyboard and mouse” you’d not be able to tell which platform you were using if all you could see was LR and Photoshop!  And, as far as I’m concerned the “other differences” in how the OS’s look and act are a matter of complete indifference.  They have become “distinctions without a difference.”

Rand

Until you hit the “save as” button... It might be your indifference.  Others may see it otherwise.  Lots of other things happen with your computer than Photoshop and Lightroom.   
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fredjeang2

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2017, 08:45:27 AM »

Until you hit the “save as” button... It might be your indifference.  Others may see it otherwise.  Lots of other things happen with your computer than Photoshop and Lightroom.
Macs ruled digital imagery since the very roots, apart from some very demanding
Niche workflows that have been using PCs.
99% of designers, retouchers, graphic artists etc...use Mac.
99% of advertising agencies are Mac execpt maybe the secretaries.
And probably a good 70% of photographers use Mac. Maybe more.
Most of motion small facilities used Mac when FCP kicked Avid in the ass
although it has changed a bit recently but not that much.
And on cellphone imagery there is nothing that compeats with the iphone.
I use more my peecees than my macs. In fact I hardly use Mac now.
But let's be honnest. Mac is the brand of digital artists.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2017, 09:58:45 AM »

Macs ruled digital imagery since the very roots, apart from some very demanding
Niche workflows that have been using PCs.
99% of designers, retouchers, graphic artists etc...use Mac.
99% of advertising agencies are Mac execpt maybe the secretaries.
And probably a good 70% of photographers use Mac. Maybe more.
Most of motion small facilities used Mac when FCP kicked Avid in the ass
although it has changed a bit recently but not that much.
And on cellphone imagery there is nothing that compeats with the iphone.
I use more my peecees than my macs. In fact I hardly use Mac now.
But let's be honnest. Mac is the brand of digital artists.

I was a Windows guy forever and I built many workstations over the years. When I  stated doing digital photography way back when, I took a lot of good natured ribbing from all of my agency friends/clients.  I was the outsider for sure.  I only got my first Mac because my wife wanted a MacBook Pro so she could use Garage Band.  I bought one too so I could understand the thing to support hers.  After some frustrating times trying to make the Mac work like a PC, I just gave in and learned the Mac way.  And then I ditched the PC.  For me, and I stress that phrase...for me...the workflow is just so much smoother.  And I spend almost no time working on the dang things.  Support my wife’s computers? Heck I don’t even mess with them.  Prior to moving to Macs I spent more hours than I could count cleaning up or reloading PCs for my extended family. So instead of dealing with the almost monthly calls to fix something I bought them all Macs.  In the 5 years since I’ve none nothing to any of those computers. 

I used to snicker when I heard my artist friends tell me their Macs “just worked”. They got it right. 

Again, this is true, “for me”. Others mileage may vary.  Personally I just love the Apple ecosystem, and I use it all.  Oh, I still have a dual boot Hackintosh with a Windows 10 boot drive, but W10 has only two uses for me.  One is Microsoft Flightsim, and the other is iRacing. 

Is Apple perfect?  Of course not.  The Mac Pro in its current form is a mess IMO and it leaves a big hole for guys like me who don’t want an all in one and want to use a a high quality monitor like an NEC.  Maybe they will get it right with the next version.

If you like using Windows that’s great, W10 is not terrible.   If you like using MacOS, that’s great too.  For a user not in some high end situation, the current hardware for both platforms is quite fast.  And it’s reliable.  For my money and my situation the MacOS and the complete Apple ecosystem wins hands down. 

YMMV.
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traderjay

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2017, 10:25:54 AM »

I was a Windows guy forever and I built many workstations over the years. When I  stated doing digital photography way back when, I took a lot of good natured ribbing from all of my agency friends/clients.  I was the outsider for sure.  I only got my first Mac because my wife wanted a MacBook Pro so she could use Garage Band.  I bought one too so I could understand the thing to support hers.  After some frustrating times trying to make the Mac work like a PC, I just gave in and learned the Mac way.  And then I ditched the PC.  For me, and I stress that phrase...for me...the workflow is just so much smoother.  And I spend almost no time working on the dang things.  Support my wife’s computers? Heck I don’t even mess with them.  Prior to moving to Macs I spent more hours than I could count cleaning up or reloading PCs for my extended family. So instead of dealing with the almost monthly calls to fix something I bought them all Macs.  In the 5 years since I’ve none nothing to any of those computers. 

I used to snicker when I heard my artist friends tell me their Macs “just worked”. They got it right. 

Again, this is true, “for me”. Others mileage may vary.  Personally I just love the Apple ecosystem, and I use it all.  Oh, I still have a dual boot Hackintosh with a Windows 10 boot drive, but W10 has only two uses for me.  One is Microsoft Flightsim, and the other is iRacing. 

Is Apple perfect?  Of course not.  The Mac Pro in its current form is a mess IMO and it leaves a big hole for guys like me who don’t want an all in one and want to use a a high quality monitor like an NEC.  Maybe they will get it right with the next version.

If you like using Windows that’s great, W10 is not terrible.   If you like using MacOS, that’s great too.  For a user not in some high end situation, the current hardware for both platforms is quite fast.  And it’s reliable.  For my money and my situation the MacOS and the complete Apple ecosystem wins hands down. 

YMMV.

Agree - Mac is okay for 2D or photo workflow which was dominant in the last two decades. The landscape has changed and 4K videos and 3D plays a much bigger role and thats where mac totally fails. Just look at the joke of the latest imac pro and the garbage can mac pro.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33rfvP9OTKU
http://www.thehurlblog.com/hp-workstation-versus-apple-mac-pro-filmmaking/

I do not know what happened to Apple because I really admire their Power Mac G5 Dual CPU system back in the days when I am still a high school student without the financial means to buy those high end hardware. When I finally had the means and acquired the technical knowledge to do so, I can't find any single decent professional-grade hardware that Apple is known for.

« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 10:30:55 AM by traderjay »
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kers

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2017, 11:02:55 AM »

...
I do not know what happened to Apple because I really admire their Power Mac G5 Dual CPU system back in the days when I am still a high school student without the financial means to buy those high end hardware. When I finally had the means and acquired the technical knowledge to do so, I can't find any single decent professional-grade hardware that Apple is known for.

+1

Apple has been very unreliable to the power user ... and photographer (Aperture) and filmmaker ( fcp to fcpX)
if you work with 3d - virtualization you have to work with windows...
hopefully the 2018 Macpro- coming 5 years too late- may be a more modular system... but will be too expensive for sure...
Apple should at least have learned by now that a round design is not that functional... ( the lamp, the trashcan)
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traderjay

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2017, 11:35:24 AM »

+1

Apple has been very unreliable to the power user ... and photographer (Aperture) and filmmaker ( fcp to fcpX)
if you work with 3d - virtualization you have to work with windows...
hopefully the 2018 Macpro- coming 5 years too late- may be a more modular system... but will be too expensive for sure...
Apple should at least have learned by now that a round design is not that functional... ( the lamp, the trashcan)

Yes and now they have this joke - https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/5/15741540/apple-imac-pro-announced-price-specs-release-date-wwdc-2017

Someone at Apple gave the industrial designers way too much power and their products reflect that - its now all gloss no function (trashcan Mac Pro).

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Craig Lamson

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2017, 12:34:56 PM »

Yes and now they have this joke - https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/5/15741540/apple-imac-pro-announced-price-specs-release-date-wwdc-2017

Someone at Apple gave the industrial designers way too much power and their products reflect that - its now all gloss no function (trashcan Mac Pro).

Like I said, to each his own.  In YOUR world the PC makes more sense.  In mine the Mac does.   The original poster has no use for the boxes you do.  Nor do I.  I agree that Apple has not given the high end the attention it needs, and perhaps thats just fine for Apple and its marketing plans. 

So yes, Apple sucks for you, and it does not suck for others.  I'm really glad you are happy.  I am too.
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fredjeang2

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2017, 01:08:05 PM »

+1

if you work with 3d - virtualization you have to work with windows...


This is not the case any longuer. It was true in the past but not now.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=POpi-Jt_EaQ
This is high-end Nuke pipeline for feature, big prod. It is Mac.
Nowadays it doesn't really matter one or the other.
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traderjay

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Re: New PC build vs iMac
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2017, 02:29:38 PM »

This is not the case any longuer. It was true in the past but not now.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=POpi-Jt_EaQ
This is high-end Nuke pipeline for feature, big prod. It is Mac.
Nowadays it doesn't really matter one or the other.

Nuke is platform agnostic and I can guarantee you that it will run faster and more productive on a top spec PC workstation vs Mac stuck with outdated hardware.
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