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Author Topic: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development  (Read 925101 times)

davidgp

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #420 on: September 06, 2017, 07:09:52 am »

Hi

Manual is on-line: http://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/products/359/D850.html , maybe it helps some people to clarify some doubts.

Regards,

David

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #421 on: September 06, 2017, 07:26:35 am »

One last thing before I buy FM: In this thread (if I recall well), it's said that Focus Magic works better for low frequency images and that Infocus might be better for high frequencies.
In my particular case in which I mainly want an app to help boost the capture resolution and the contrast of two lesser optics, which program would work better, FM or Infocus?

That's hard to predict, but the results will be very close anyway. Also remember that we're usually pixel peeping here, and it would be hard to see the differences at normal viewing distance. IF requires more work and tweaking because it quickly generates artifacts when too large a radius is used. FM requires very little work and still does a stellar job in most cases.

Capture sharpening usually has to deal mostly with reducing diffraction (mostly at apertures of f/4 or narrower, and predominantly at narrower than f/8), and to a lesser extent with lens aberrations and defocus. IF might be useful if a lot of manual work is done (when using IFs PSF Estimation, but it requires zooming in on detail with plenty of well-focused angles/edges to get a decent estimate and requires redoing it for each image), but for steady shots from tripod or or shots with Image Stabilization, I'd favor FM in 98% of the cases.

Over time, it might be that TopazLabs develop an improved (paid) version of a Sharpening Plugin specifically for its free "Studio" host progam, although their simple Sharpen plugin for Studio (currently at $19.99 or discounted as part of their Pro-Pack) already does a decent job without artifacts.

The Topaz plugins can be tried for a month, FM only allows to process and save 10 images.

FM might need an ADOBE application installed on your computer to install and unlock, so first install the demo and see if that works on your computer configuration. A purchased license number can then be filled in in the dialog with the same installed plugin.

Cheers,
Bart
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john beardsworth

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #422 on: September 06, 2017, 11:50:13 am »

Adobe just released an update to Camera Raw for the 850 http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/2017/09/camera-raw-9-12-1-now-available.html

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #423 on: September 06, 2017, 06:00:04 pm »

Nikon also updated Capture NX-D.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 07:26:21 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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uaiomex

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #424 on: September 06, 2017, 11:47:49 pm »

Thank you Bart. Very dandy from you.
Eduardo

That's hard to predict, but the results will be very close anyway. Also remember that we're usually pixel peeping here, and it would be hard to see the differences at normal viewing distance. IF requires more work and tweaking because it quickly generates artifacts when too large a radius is used. FM requires very little work and still does a stellar job in most cases.

Capture sharpening usually has to deal mostly with reducing diffraction (mostly at apertures of f/4 or narrower, and predominantly at narrower than f/8), and to a lesser extent with lens aberrations and defocus. IF might be useful if a lot of manual work is done (when using IFs PSF Estimation, but it requires zooming in on detail with plenty of well-focused angles/edges to get a decent estimate and requires redoing it for each image), but for steady shots from tripod or or shots with Image Stabilization, I'd favor FM in 98% of the cases.

Over time, it might be that TopazLabs develop an improved (paid) version of a Sharpening Plugin specifically for its free "Studio" host progam, although their simple Sharpen plugin for Studio (currently at $19.99 or discounted as part of their Pro-Pack) already does a decent job without artifacts.

The Topaz plugins can be tried for a month, FM only allows to process and save 10 images.

FM might need an ADOBE application installed on your computer to install and unlock, so first install the demo and see if that works on your computer configuration. A purchased license number can then be filled in in the dialog with the same installed plugin.

Cheers,
Bart
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davidgp

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Re: Nikon D850: a good custom-designed sensor
« Reply #425 on: September 07, 2017, 04:05:36 am »


This article describes the actual manufacturing steps for sensors: http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/09/05/sony-kumamoto-sensor-factory-tour-a-rare-glimpse


Sorry for the late reply to this comment. I just wanted to clarify a point, there is no difference between making a mobile phone sensor or a full-frame one, it is exactly the same process. That it is due to the CMOS technology, the same one used to make nearly any chip inside any device, from cameras, to computers, to microwaves... well, there is one key difference, it is much cheaper to try new things in smaller sensors than big ones.

All CMOS technology it is build nowadays in wafers of pure Silicon (as pure as possible, any impurities can make a batch of sensors just a paperweight) of 300mm of diameter (some years ago they were using 200mm, and there was speculation of moving to 400mm for some years, but never happen). Each of these wafers can be used to build several sensors (or processors, or RAM memory...), if they chip chip is small, you can put more chips in the same wafer. This is done by a series of physical and chemical process... very precise one, since we are talking of few nanometres here for the precision of the process. Doing a quick search in Google, you can see here a wafer with several 35mm sensor chips: https://www.google.com/search?q=sony+sensor+wafer&rlz=1C1GGRV_esES752__752&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRm5_8xf7VAhUQsBQKHQhBCpYQ_AUICygC&biw=1920&bih=990#imgrc=POlZJr58ajWwhM:

Any impurity in the silicon in one of those chips, sensor to the waste, any error in the physical or chemical process for just impurity in the air, or the chemical, or whatever... chip to the waste... It is expected that not all the chips in a wafer work... the chip manufactures use what they call a yield rate, number of good chips / number of total chips in the wafer. They try to achive as close to 1 as possible. At the beginning of any technology introduction (new physical/chemical process... etc...) or new chip design, the yield rate tends to be low, it gets higher with the pass of time.

A way that the manufacturers have to get higher yield rates while trying new things, it is to do it with smaller chips, with smaller chips you have more chips per wafer, so even if 40% of the wafer produces bad chips, you still are getting enough chips to sell and compensate the costs... with bigger chips, maybe the majority are bad... and the good chips will be quite expensive. After fine tunning the process with smaller chips, you can feel confidente that you can scale up the technology to bigger chips.

New technologies that are comming to sensors in the lastest years, like Aptina-like amplifiers, BSI (both in the 850, A7r II), or stacked sensor (A9), first released in smartphones.

Here you have a nice paper of evolution of sensor technology: https://semiengineering.com/cmos-image-sensors-cis-past-present-future/

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #426 on: September 07, 2017, 08:26:22 am »

It looks like my D850 has shipped... It should be here tomorrow. ;)

If the stars line up as I hope they will, I should be able to put it to good use this coming weekend for a nice mountain trip. The Leica 180mm f2.8 APO is shaking on the shelves out of excitement.  ;D

And it looks like my trusted D810 is about to find a new home also.

Cheers,
Bernard

Ray

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #427 on: September 07, 2017, 09:59:45 am »

It looks like my D850 has shipped... It should be here tomorrow. ;)

If the stars line up as I hope they will, I should be able to put it to good use this coming weekend for a nice mountain trip. The Leica 180mm f2.8 APO is shaking on the shelves out of excitement.  ;D

And it looks like my trusted D810 is about to find a new home also.

Cheers,
Bernard

Please do some comparisons before your D810 finds a new home, Bernard, and post them here. 
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kers

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #428 on: September 07, 2017, 10:07:09 am »

From the manual i already found out that the splitscreen-improvement is hardly any better...

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #429 on: September 07, 2017, 10:58:04 am »

Please do some comparisons before your D810 finds a new home, Bernard, and post them here.

That will probably not be possible logistically I am afraid.

Cheers,
Bernard

Michael Erlewine

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #430 on: September 09, 2017, 03:49:55 am »

Nikon Rumors as a VERY instructive and totally illustrated teardown and look inside the D850. Toshiba manufactured the sensor, for example.

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/08/nikon-d850-dslr-camera-teardown-more-durable-design-significant-improvements-in-many-areas.aspx/#more-115955
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davidgp

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Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #431 on: September 09, 2017, 04:45:32 am »

Nikon Rumors as a VERY instructive and totally illustrated teardown and look inside the D850. Toshiba manufactured the sensor, for example.

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/08/nikon-d850-dslr-camera-teardown-more-durable-design-significant-improvements-in-many-areas.aspx/#more-115955

No, they say nothing about the sensor, they say that the Processor, CPU was manufactured by Toshiba. They didn't teardown the sensor unit... and even if they do so... it will probably need an x-ray study like a company as Chipworks to determine the manufacturer

 https://www.chipworks.com/about-chipworks/overview/blog/full-frame-dslr-cameras-part-i-nikon-vs-sony (this is a bit old study... )

As far as I remember, Toshiba, that it is not doing very well economically, sold their sensor division to Sony... and it is in the process to sell its SSD/memory division... although this selling it is a bit complicated since the Japan government wants to sell the unit to another Japan company and the only ones bidding are from USA and China...


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kers

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #432 on: September 09, 2017, 07:32:14 am »

I read that from the teardown report the shutter seems to be made more durable, however if i am correct it is supposed to work 200.000 shots vs 300.000 shots for the D810.
( as Nikon pointed out if you use the silent mode no shutter/mirror mechanism is used making it lasting longer)

Imaging Recource has a nice serie of D850 Nefs online.
I just printed in NXD developed parts at 150 dpi - so that means 139cm wide.
The results are very good. 64 asa is noiseless and 3200 asa can be used even without noise reduction.
With noise reduction even asa 128.000 is useful - colors hold up .
in certain occasions 256.000 asa is not that bad either.
the only problem is you use high asa values in tungsten light more often than in daylight so this is not a complete picture.
NXD does a good job
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 08:04:02 am by kers »
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #433 on: September 09, 2017, 11:26:27 pm »

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D5,Nikon%20D810,Nikon%20D850,Sony%20ILCE-7R,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2

As I was saying re: DR performance.

No better at base ISO (the A7r still has the same DR at ISO 100 as the D850 does at ISO 64), improved at mid-ISOs. Beats or equals the D5 up until ISO 2000, and doesn't embarrass itself beyond that either.

So, for landscapes, it's basically a D810 with slightly higher resolution, while, for action, it's a whole lot better (given the AF and frame rate improvements), with as much DR as the D5 for most of the common action ISO range (shooting at ISO 6400-12800 isn't the norm for most action photography).

It does open up a gap for Sony, though. The A7r2 still beats it throughout the mid-ISO range - I'm not sure if DR-Pix was implemented in the same way, if at all, in the D850. An updated sensor, around 50MP and with the 3-layer stacked design of the A9's sensor, would likely beat the D850 throughout that critical ISO 400-6400 range.  Put it into third line of cameras - between the high-resolution/slow line and the low-resolution/fast A9 line, with the A9's AF system and 8-10fps, and it would make for a Nikon-beating action/general-purpose camera, just in time to launch some E-mount superteles. Canon could potentially do the same, but they are less likely to try.
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davidgp

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #434 on: September 10, 2017, 03:36:28 am »

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D5,Nikon%20D810,Nikon%20D850,Sony%20ILCE-7R,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2

As I was saying re: DR performance.

No better at base ISO (the A7r still has the same DR at ISO 100 as the D850 does at ISO 64), improved at mid-ISOs. Beats or equals the D5 up until ISO 2000, and doesn't embarrass itself beyond that either.

So, for landscapes, it's basically a D810 with slightly higher resolution, while, for action, it's a whole lot better (given the AF and frame rate improvements), with as much DR as the D5 for most of the common action ISO range (shooting at ISO 6400-12800 isn't the norm for most action photography).

It does open up a gap for Sony, though. The A7r2 still beats it throughout the mid-ISO range - I'm not sure if DR-Pix was implemented in the same way, if at all, in the D850. An updated sensor, around 50MP and with the 3-layer stacked design of the A9's sensor, would likely beat the D850 throughout that critical ISO 400-6400 range.  Put it into third line of cameras - between the high-resolution/slow line and the low-resolution/fast A9 line, with the A9's AF system and 8-10fps, and it would make for a Nikon-beating action/general-purpose camera, just in time to launch some E-mount superteles. Canon could potentially do the same, but they are less likely to try.


Stacked sensor does not add anything to DR, it is only for speed... that will be interested for Sony if they want to reach 10fps with a 50MPx sensor...

I think the D850 it really has an aptina like amplifier... you see a jump in DR around 400 ISO... but it looks like it does not have a second phase like the A7r II.

Anyway, it confirms what Nikon already said, same DR as the D810 and better high ISO. Together with the improve in AF... it is a very complete camera... I would buy it blindly if I had any Nikon glass...


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kers

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #435 on: September 10, 2017, 03:46:40 am »

Apart from the numbers i can already see the images have more clarity than the d810 ones
At base iso it is absolutely noiseless even in the blacks.
There is less color noise in the high iso and it lacks white spots that come in with the d810 sensor at high iso's
So yes, image quality has improved over the d810. Together with the other improvements it is a worthy upgrade.

edit
Printing an A4 shows that with some noise reduction and increased saturation @ 256.000 asa you still have a very good print.
(who needs MF?)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 07:23:59 am by kers »
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #436 on: September 10, 2017, 05:33:31 am »


Stacked sensor does not add anything to DR, it is only for speed... that will be interested for Sony if they want to reach 10fps with a 50MPx sensor...

I think the D850 it really has an aptina like amplifier... you see a jump in DR around 400 ISO... but it looks like it does not have a second phase like the A7r II.

Anyway, it confirms what Nikon already said, same DR as the D810 and better high ISO. Together with the improve in AF... it is a very complete camera... I would buy it blindly if I had any Nikon glass...


http://dgpfotografia.com

Are you talking about RAW or JPEG files? No doubt they would have improved their noise reduction. But the numbers show that the SNR at base ISO is no greater than with the D810.

Stacked sensor is necessary to match the D850 and make it work for action. A 50MP, slow-shooting, slow-focusing body with EVF lag isn't going to attract anyone.

If Sony can give it the A9 AF system and 8-10fps while retaining a mid-ISO DR edge, they'd have a very competitive action/general-purpose camera that's much more generally useful than the A9's 24MP/20fps.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #437 on: September 10, 2017, 07:19:01 am »

Everything is possible but these theoretical cameras have one major issue... they can't take pictures.

Cheers,
Bernard

davidgp

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #438 on: September 10, 2017, 07:31:58 am »


Stacked sensor is necessary to match the D850 and make it work for action. A 50MP, slow-shooting, slow-focusing body with EVF lag isn't going to attract anyone.

If Sony can give it the A9 AF system and 8-10fps while retaining a mid-ISO DR edge, they'd have a very competitive action/general-purpose camera that's much more generally useful than the A9's 24MP/20fps.

Right, I haven't thought about the EVF...



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davidgp

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Re: Nikon D850: Announcement of an Announcement of Development
« Reply #439 on: September 10, 2017, 07:39:36 am »

Apart from the numbers i can already see the images have more clarity than the d810 ones
At base iso it is absolutely noiseless even in the blacks.
There is less color noise in the high iso and it lacks white spots that come in with the d810 sensor at high iso's
So yes, image quality has improved over the d810. Together with the other improvements it is a worthy upgrade.

edit
Printing an A4 shows that with some noise reduction and increased saturation @ 256.000 asa you still have a very good print.
(who needs MF?)

Yes, BSI together with the Aptina-like amps will make the images much cleaner than d810


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