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Author Topic: Framing an A2 print (from P800) - workflow questions  (Read 12402 times)

fdi

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Re: Framing an A2 print (from P800) - workflow questions
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2017, 08:16:31 pm »

I've been behind the scenes in a number of well-regarded framing shops in my city, and I'm yet to see a computerised cutter.  Both their mattes and mine look just fine to me.

Professional framers with professional level mat cutters can consistently do great with the quality, but I have spotted plenty of mats at gallery shows that were obviously hand cut by a DIY framer with little patience/skill and or a cheap mat cutter. Not saying it is impossible, just requires an investment in time and money.

I know plenty of custom framers that don't have computerized mat cutters and sometimes we do big jobs for them. Does not make sense to me since when my business was still in my garage I rented a computerized mat cutter for under $300 a month. They also allow you do special cuts and make multi-opening and 8ply a lot easier.
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pearlstreet

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Re: Framing an A2 print (from P800) - workflow questions
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2017, 01:43:56 pm »

Quality-wise as far as frames go, my local framer offers much higher quality frames for comparable prices to online frames. Mats ordered online have been equal quality-wise but my framers prices have been not much higher. If you live someplace with a good frame shop, then think about buying locally while we still have frame shops. We get so focused on saving a buck, we give up quality and personal service. The most fun my clients have is working with my frame shop choosing a print and mat.
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fdi

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Re: Framing an A2 print (from P800) - workflow questions
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2017, 04:21:00 pm »

Quality-wise as far as frames go, my local framer offers much higher quality frames for comparable prices to online frames. Mats ordered online have been equal quality-wise but my framers prices have been not much higher. If you live someplace with a good frame shop, then think about buying locally while we still have frame shops. We get so focused on saving a buck, we give up quality and personal service. The most fun my clients have is working with my frame shop choosing a print and mat.

I agree completely agree with Sharon's comments. The quality of a good custom frame shop should be the highest since either the owner is doing it, or he is going to check it before it goes out the door. There are many different types of custom shops and some are more efficient than others, and some dont mind doing some wholesale work for re-sellers such as photographers. You will need to get to know them and let them know you are going to have a set formula and not need to talk to them and look at samples for 45 minutes (time is money) every time you need something framed. They might be ok with selling you just the frame materials and you doing the final assembly which takes a lot of time (especially when you have to open it back up to get that one piece of dust you missed). A good source of potential frame shops are members of the Professional Picture Framers Association: http://ppfadirectory.com/

Please avoid places like Michael's and Hobby Lobby. With those you get the quality of online or worse, but you are still paying the custom frame store price. Those place have the components manufactured in a production center (just like the online places) and assembly may be done by high school kid with minimal training or concern and probably little or no understanding of conservation framing techniques.

I would add that most of the online places (like mine) are family owned, but the quality does vary from very close to custom frame shops, to pretty low and poorly packaged for shipping.
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DeanChriss

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Re: Framing an A2 print (from P800) - workflow questions
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2017, 08:19:26 pm »

My 50 cents, all IMO...

I think deciding whether you use a professional frame shop, assemble pre-cut components yourself, cut and assemble all of the components yourself, or some combination of the last two, depends on what you enjoy (or at least don't hate), what you need to accomplish, and economics. Due to the  equipment expense and learning curve it makes no sense to cut and assemble mats, mounts, glass, and frame moldings yourself unless you really enjoy it or you need to produce quite a few framed prints on a continuing basis. The latter means you are probably selling the prints. That is a dubious endeavor but it can mean your equipment costs become insignificant as they are spread over many prints.

Selling prints at a full service gallery often means paying a 50% commission. Some take less but pricing needs to account for this worst case. Changing the selling price based on the venue is a horrible business practice that will eventually catch up with you. Consignment agreements at many galleries require consigned items to be sold at the same price everywhere they are offered. Selling only at arts fairs and festivals may seem cheaper, but what you spend in time, jury fees, booth fees, amortized equipment (tent, display panels, print racks) and inventory quickly makes up for the lack of a commission. Roughly speaking I'd say the outdoor venues are equally expensive, but the sales volume is higher.

Considering the 50% commission or its equivalent, every dollar saved doing the work yourself means $2 added to your bottom line if the print sells. For example, suppose the total cost for a professionally framed A2 size range print is $150, pre-cut materials for the same print are are $100, and doing the whole job yourself costs $70. With a 50% commission the break even selling price is $300, $200, and $140 respectively. If in your area such prints will sell at $400, you make $100, $200, and $260 respectively for your time and talent on each one. Over years and decades even the $60 difference becomes very significant. FWIW, I made up these numbers but I think they're reasonably close, and the principal holds regardless.

You can reduce the cost of pre-cut mats and frames by standardizing on particular sizes and buying in quantity. The down side is cropping at least some images to aspect ratios that are not optimal. I find the 2:3 aspect ratio of the camera often works, but at least 25% or 30% of the time it is not ideal. I end up with other "standard" aspect ratios like 4:5 and 1:1, but not infrequently something really odd and one-off works best for the image. Cutting all of the materials yourself means the cost does not increase when a non-standard size comes along, and the mat is not ill-proportioned to make the odd-sized print fit into a standard frame. The ability to produce an odd-sized mat by the time the ink on the print has dried also comes in handy sometimes. You can't change the price at which your prints will sell at a reasonable frequency, the commission charged by galleries, or the cost of doing arts festivals. One of very few things over which you have some control is the cost of producing your work.

As I said starting off, the whole endeavor is dubious. Most of us would have to participate in an arts festival nearly every weekend of the year, live like a gypsy because of it, and have work in numerous galleries to make a great living selling prints. In that case there would be little time to take photos and make the prints, so it's nearly impossible. I make prints because I love doing it, but my house can't possibly hold everything I want to make, and there are always more. That necessitates selling them or piling them up unseen until I have enough for a good bonfire. I sell them because it perpetuates and pays for what I love doing (making the prints) and what I don't hate doing (cutting mats, glass, and selling), with some pocket change left over for other photography related stuff. I wouldn't do any of this if I didn't love it, but I also wouldn't do it if it didn't at least pay for itself. For me it takes both and doing 100% of the work myself helps achieve the latter. YMMV
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Ferp

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Re: Framing an A2 print (from P800) - workflow questions
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2017, 10:00:36 pm »

I am concerned that we've lost sight of the original poster's interest.  She prints her own photos because she gets a creative buzz from doing so.  My reading is that she wants to do the same from framing them.  There was no talk of selling them.  She's going to start out by assembling purchased components, which I think we all agree is sensible.  She thinks she might progress to cutting mat, and here opinion diverges.  Sure, it's a whole lot simpler and easier to buy pre-cut mats.  The same arguments apply to printing.  But Wawe (who hasn't posted in a couple of weeks) is looking to get that creative buzz.

I don't agree with some of Mark's (fdi) observations.  Alan recommended him, and I'm sure that he produces a quality product at a reasonable price.  By his own admission, (i) his position in the industry means he is biased; and (ii) he said that "I have never hand cut a mat".  As someone who has hand cut a lot of mats, I can state that there's a lot of middle ground between the poorly cut mats that Mark has seen, and the large investment in a computerized cutter.  You can cut a matte with fairly basic gear, but the both the amount of practice required and the potential failure rate are high.  Both improve with better gear.  I think there's a sweet spot where good basic mats can be be readily cut with intermediate level gear.  It's certainly a way to lower costs for those who sell.  It's not for everyone, but I think it's doing a disservice to someone just looking to satisfy a creative urge to suggest that there's only the options of poorly cut mats or a large commercial investment with nothing in between.

Whether hand cutting makes sense for those selling is another matter.  As I said, I see plenty of frame shops doing it.  Including the local framer that I use and recommend for work outside my capacity and skill set.
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DeanChriss

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Re: Framing an A2 print (from P800) - workflow questions
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2017, 09:27:18 am »

I didn't mean to get the thread so far off track. Sorry.

Hi all,

I've recently started printing my own images with an Epson P800 and am looking to matt & frame them myself, too, as soon as I learn how to do that and acquire the necessary supplies.

Having watched hours of tutorial videos on the subject both on Lynda.com and YouTube, I found the methodology taught on Robert Rodriguez Jr's Matting and Framing Tutorial to be worth pursuing, with some minor modifications to be better suited for my purposes. Firstly, for now, I probably won't try to cut my own glass or build the frame as I have enough new stuff to learn as is. Secondly, as I understood that you can do the whole process in a way that allows you to change the image in the frame later if necessary, I would really like to do the matting and framing so that I can do that. I'd appreciate any thoughts you might have for these two choices.
Mylar corners or mounting strips from Lineco (or commercial or home made equivalent) would allow you to remove and replace prints while retaining the mount and mat. Google "Lineco Mylar Mounting Strips" without quotes to see what these are. I'd hinge mount the mat to the backing with a single strip of acid-free hinging tape. Just lay the mat face down on a clean surface, align the backing with the mat, then run a strip of archival hinging tape over the seam between them so the assembly closes like a book. The tape does not have to go all the way to the ends. You could also use two shorter strips of tape, one at each end of the seam, to save some tape. There are lots of online YouTube tutorials about this. Then mount the print to the backing with the corners or strips. I would not recommend T-hinge mounting the print, even with archival materials that can be removed without damage, because removing prints many times will certainly damage the mount. [/b][/u]

If I'll end up following this process, I'm thinking I need to buy at least the following:

  • The frame itself
  • Backing board
  • Mount
  • Photo corners to hold the print in place
  • Glazing (I'm considering Tru Vue Museum Glass)
  • Some string to hang the finished art work with and other small supplies
By "Mount" above, do you mean the mat board that has the window cut into it? The print mounts to a backing board to which the window mat is hinged, not to the window mat itself. The sequence from front to back inside the frame is 1. Glass or Acrylic. 2. Window Mat. 3. Print. 4. Backing to which print is mounted. Number 4 can be something like acid-free foam core and can form the back of the whole package or it can be acid-free mat board or acid-free backing board (similar to mat board but cheaper). If you use one of the last two you'll probably want a piece of acid-free foam board behind that to prevent bowing and add strength to the package. Also, watch out for finger prints on Museum glass. They are more difficult to remove than you imagine. To clean off finger prints use plenty of ammonia-free cleaner and clean the entire surface. Trying to clean just a spot will just make a bigger mess. The "String" you mention should probably be a plastic coated stainless steel picture hanging wire. These do not corrode or mark walls like the cheaper braided galvanized wire can.

As I've never actually done any framing in practice, the above list isn't probably complete. Something relevant I'm missing here?

Also, any thoughts on where to get the stuff? I live in Finland, so in case someone knows any good Europe-based retailers, those would likely work the best for me, but I'm willing to consider further-away options as well.
Sorry, I don't know of any sources in your area.

With a quick look, I found at least one framing shop that would sell bespoke frames, for which I could choose the glazing to be Tru Vue Museum Glass as well. So, from them I would get all else and would then do the mount myself. This is a tempting choice for first-timer like myself but I'd assume that they will charge astronomical mark-ups for the service. What do you think, would this be a nice, easy road to go at this point?
Assembling pre-cut pieces is quite easy and can make a quality result. I'd recommend that, but I do not know the most local or highest quality source for this in your area.
Please feel free to suggest other alternatives as well and thanks for your help in advance!

-W4w3
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fdi

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Re: Framing an A2 print (from P800) - workflow questions
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2017, 10:33:32 am »

I don't agree with some of Mark's (fdi) observations.  Alan recommended him, and I'm sure that he produces a quality product at a reasonable price.  By his own admission, (i) his position in the industry means he is biased; and (ii) he said that "I have never hand cut a mat".  As someone who has hand cut a lot of mats, I can state that there's a lot of middle ground between the poorly cut mats that Mark has seen, and the large investment in a computerized cutter.  You can cut a matte with fairly basic gear, but the both the amount of practice required and the potential failure rate are high.  Both improve with better gear.  I think there's a sweet spot where good basic mats can be be readily cut with intermediate level gear.  It's certainly a way to lower costs for those who sell.  It's not for everyone, but I think it's doing a disservice to someone just looking to satisfy a creative urge to suggest that there's only the options of poorly cut mats or a large commercial investment with nothing in between.

Sorry Ferp, I did not mean to downplay the position of hand cutting mats so strongly. Probably due to my personal bias as opposed to my business bias. I have never hand cut but I have done similar enough things to know that I would rather spend my time taking pictures. I forget that some people enjoy cutting mats and can do it just as well as a CMC. One of the local framers I know brought in a multi-opening mat with 24 openings he cut by hand. Although he could cut it, he needed 50 of them quickly so he wanted us to do them on our CMC. We could hardly the tell the difference between his and ours.
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