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Author Topic: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)  (Read 38354 times)

JKoerner007

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #120 on: July 02, 2017, 03:25:46 pm »

when we specify lenses for hiking and travel, and they are not necessarily the fastest or most corrected, we are doing this for our convenience in carrying them. It can be important.

I am sure that some of you don’t need or use fast lenses, and perhaps f/1.4 is not important to you. I get that and agree. But please let’s not ignore that there are some of us, I for one, that greatly value the speed, accuracy wide open, and degree of correctedness that we find in lenses like the Zeiss Otus series and other lenses.

Exactly. It is clear Hogloff's area of interests lie in the "snapshot" category, where he is simply walking around taking random images of cities and the people in the cities.
(While they are nice images, they require no tripod, no precision. Instead, they're just taken, handheld, while walking around as a tourist.)
Quite frankly, any camera/lens system could accomplish similar results. (A person could bring a compact, or micro-four-thirds, and travel even lighter than he is, while securing quite similar imagery.)

What Hogloff cannot seem to fathom is that other people have different goals ... specialized interests ... and, therefore, specialized tools need to be implemented.

The Sony system, at this point, is only good for people who don't require the plethora of specialized tools that longstanding companies, like Canon and Nikon, offer in-depth to the photographer.

If we are going to limit ourselves to the "normal walk-around" prime category, Hogloff seems to forget that Nikon still makes many AI-S lenses (which are very light and every bit as capable as the lenses he's carrying.)

In fact, if "lightness" is the defining criteria, his own chosen system is nowhere near as light as it could be, either.

The same arguments he makes for choosing Sony over Nikon could be made for choosing micro-four-thirds over Sony ;)

However, if absolute image quality is the criterion, and/or if a wide variety of specialized applications are needed ... without regard to weight ... but with a premium placed on quality + available top-level options, then neither Sony nor micro-four-thirds qualify.

Which brings us back to this thread topic.

Michael Erlewine

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #121 on: July 02, 2017, 03:53:56 pm »

There are many photographers that I respect who do not need or use fast lenses. Of course, they all love the Zeiss lenses (Milvus, etc.) which skip having f.1.4, etc. and just offer f.2.8 or somewhere there. I understand.

Yet, I need fast lenses because that razor-thin DOF can be stacked and we can paint focus wherever we like, leaving the rest in the very nice bokeh we can get at f/1.4.

Also, I appreciate the brightness we can get with f/1.4, as well. As they say, "horses for courses." I appreciate that. What I don't like is making everything personal, putting equipment (or people) down or up. It is what it is. There are many kinds of photographers.

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hogloff

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #122 on: July 02, 2017, 04:56:29 pm »

Exactly. It is clear Hogloff's area of interests lie in the "snapshot" category, where he is simply walking around taking random images of cities and the people in the cities.
(While they are nice images, they require no tripod, no precision. Instead, they're just taken, handheld, while walking around as a tourist.)
Quite frankly, any camera/lens system could accomplish similar results. (A person could bring a compact, or micro-four-thirds, and travel even lighter than he is, while securing quite similar imagery.)

What Hogloff cannot seem to fathom is that other people have different goals ... specialized interests ... and, therefore, specialized tools need to be implemented.

The Sony system, at this point, is only good for people who don't require the plethora of specialized tools that longstanding companies, like Canon and Nikon, offer in-depth to the photographer.

If we are going to limit ourselves to the "normal walk-around" prime category, Hogloff seems to forget that Nikon still makes many AI-S lenses (which are very light and every bit as capable as the lenses he's carrying.)

In fact, if "lightness" is the defining criteria, his own chosen system is nowhere near as light as it could be, either.

The same arguments he makes for choosing Sony over Nikon could be made for choosing micro-four-thirds over Sony ;)

However, if absolute image quality is the criterion, and/or if a wide variety of specialized applications are needed ... without regard to weight ... but with a premium placed on quality + available top-level options, then neither Sony nor micro-four-thirds qualify.

Which brings us back to this thread topic.

Can you please keep your childish insults to yourself...remember that got you banned on FM. Learn from that.

As far as "snapshots go", would you call these photographers snapshot shooters?

Cartier-Bresson
Robert Frank
Gary Winogrand
Robert Doisneau
Elliott Erwitt

They all carry a small light camera and shoot on the fly.


Oh...and by the way, I also do landscape photography where I do use bigger lenses, but still my Sony camera as it delivers wonderful landscape images. A few of my images follow. Maybe Johnny, rather than all your talking, lets see some of those award winning photos you have with your "league leading" lenses and cameras.


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JKoerner007

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #123 on: July 02, 2017, 06:13:03 pm »

Can you please keep your childish insults to yourself...remember that got you banned on FM. Learn from that.

As far as "snapshots go", would you call these photographers snapshot shooters?

Cartier-Bresson
Robert Frank
Gary Winogrand
Robert Doisneau
Elliott Erwitt

They all carry a small light camera and shoot on the fly.


Oh...and by the way, I also do landscape photography where I do use bigger lenses, but still my Sony camera as it delivers wonderful landscape images. A few of my images follow. Maybe Johnny, rather than all your talking, lets see some of those award winning photos you have with your "league leading" lenses and cameras.

Hog, I didn't mean to insult you on the other post. I honestly consider most hand-held, street type shots to be "snapshots," compared to composing on a tripod, etc. (Doesn't mean they're not nice images; they just don't take that much to execute.)

Your landscape images are very nice. Not sure what this has to do with the pending Nikon D850 release, which was the original thread topic, but you always seem to find justification for turning every Nikon thread about yourself and Sony.
Even more interesting, you admit you're willing to use "bigger lenses" when it suits you ... yet constantly harp that others then they use larger lenses when it suits them.

Why can't you accept that it suits other people to use larger lenses than you ... to take photographs of subjects they enjoy?

Have you noticed your pathology of intruding yourself onto virtually every Nikon thread topic in order t preach for Sony. Why is this?
It would be like a micro-four-thirds enthusiast inserting his opinion of why people should use these smaller cameras, every time someone else tried to talk about the A7rII?

Hogloff, can you explain why a thread topic, discussing the pending Nikon D820/50, should be hijacked and turned into a Sony-centered cheerleading session based on what "you" do?

Do you think it would be possible, in the future, for you to refrain from posting your Sony opinion on every Nikon thread?

As for me posting some of my own photos, I am actually crafting some images right now ... 40-50 image-stacks. Will post in a bit (takes a long time to process).

These will be relevant, as they were taken with the D810, using Nikon glass. Stay tuned.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 06:16:06 pm by JKoerner007 »
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JKoerner007

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #124 on: July 02, 2017, 06:48:01 pm »

While I am waiting to process today's images, the following are something you could not possibly take with your kit.

  • The first is an Acorn Woodpecker taken at 900mm. (D500 + 300mm + 2xTC.)
  • The second is a Broad-Billed Hummer taken at 900mm (Same.)
  • The third is an Arizona Mantid taken @ 1:1. (D810 + Voigtländer SL 125mm f/2.5 Macro)
  • The fourth is a California Crab Spider taken @ 4:1 (23-image stack with a D810 + Nikkor AI-S 50mm f/1.2 lens, reversed, on a Nikon PB-6 Bellows )

hogloff

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #125 on: July 02, 2017, 06:52:56 pm »

Hog, I didn't mean to insult you on the other post. I honestly consider most hand-held, street type shots to be "snapshots," compared to composing on a tripod, etc. (Doesn't mean they're not nice images; they just don't take that much to execute.)

John, I'd like to believe you about not meaning your jab as an insult...but your behavior on FM precedes you and the added phase

"(While they are nice images, they require no tripod, no precision. Instead, they're just taken, handheld, while walking around as a tourist.)
Quite frankly, any camera/lens system could accomplish similar results. (A person could bring a compact, or micro-four-thirds, and travel even lighter than he is, while securing quite similar imagery.)
"

nails it for me. Your view of my photos being able to be taken with a compact ( P&S ) is very insulting to say the least and shows your true colours. I'm done here...have no time for people that throw around insults.
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JKoerner007

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #126 on: July 02, 2017, 07:08:52 pm »

John, I'd like to believe you about not meaning your jab as an insult...but your behavior on FM precedes you and the added phase

"(While they are nice images, they require no tripod, no precision. Instead, they're just taken, handheld, while walking around as a tourist.)
Quite frankly, any camera/lens system could accomplish similar results. (A person could bring a compact, or micro-four-thirds, and travel even lighter than he is, while securing quite similar imagery.)
"

nails it for me. Your view of my photos being able to be taken with a compact ( P&S ) is very insulting to say the least and shows your true colours. I'm done here...have no time for people that throw around insults.

Your halo doesn't fit, Hog. You have been insulting me since the beginning.

And sorry, but I disagree. I think a micro-four-thirds could take your shots.

I know for a 100% fact that, with the "heavy" equipment I bring, 1) I could take any photo you took, using my rig, but 2) you couldn't take a single photo I took, using yours. That's the difference.

Remember, you started this comparison, not me. You intruded on here, calling me "Johnny," running your mouth, and (then) posting your images, challenging me, essentially.

If you don't like how the comparison worked out, then maybe pipe-down next time and stick to threads with like-minded folks.

I understand that your rig works for you, based on the standard focal lengths, but it would never work for me and the much heavier demands on what what I need my system to do.

My last post on this subject and ... to each his own.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #127 on: July 02, 2017, 10:08:40 pm »

Guys, just agree to disagree. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

JKoerner007

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Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
« Reply #128 on: July 03, 2017, 01:21:55 am »

Guys, just agree to disagree. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

True enough.

Hey, I am willing to extend an olive branch to Hogloff and "forgive and forget" :)

Hogloff and I actually agree on several points, conceptually. I try to limit the weight I carry, where I can.

In keeping with this, Hogloff mentioned his lens portfolio:

Loxia 21mm - 394gm
Batis 25mm - 335gm
Sony 35mm - 120gm (it's actually 154 g)
Sony 55mm - 281gm
Batis 85mm - 452gm

Other than my super-telephoto lens, my own hiking/field lens portfolio consists of these:
    • Nikkor 20mm AIS - 270 g
    • Nikkor 28mm AIS - 250 g
    • Nikkor 50mm AIS - 359 g
    • Voightlander 125mm APO Macro - 690 g
    Hog's lens weight adds-up to 1616 g.
    My ancillary lens weight (aside from my super-telephoto) totals 1569 g ;)
    So we both agree on "keeping things light," where possible. I just have needs beyond standard lens ranges.

    I have lenses like the Zeiss 135 Apo f/2.0, and the Zeiss Distagon T 15mm, but I am not going to take these on a hike with me. I understand they are 'better' than my Nikkor AI-S lenses I do bring, but they are too heavy, and too fragile, to go where I need to go. I would bring the Zeisses to my mom's garden, a city park, etc., or some kind of controlled environment ... but I am not going to be hiking the sheer cliffs and sand-blown deserts with them, where I often find myself.

    I have found that the small, light, portable Nikkor AI-S lenses take great "standard" shots ... as good as any but the highest-level stuff ... but they are more versatile. Because, if you flip them over, and add a Nikkor BR-2 reverse-ring, you can get some pretty cool "ultra-macro" shots with them as well. As mentioned earlier, I just uploaded 4 spider shots I took through 3 of these lenses. (No Otus could do this either, lol!)

    The post can be found here ...

    Cheers,

    Rob C

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    Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
    « Reply #129 on: July 03, 2017, 04:56:54 am »

    Frankly, the above spat is nothing but another manifestation of what's wrong with "amateur" photography, where the interest usually seems to be in the equipment.

    In all my long years in the business, and some years felt much longer than others, I never met a fellow pro who either cared deeply about, or had very much interest in what others were using. If you were a Pentax freak why would you care if the guy across the street used Nikon, and vice versa? They were all good systems capable of delivering what you wanted; you were usually the problem if there was one.

    Maybe it was all to do with the cameras: they were simple, uncomplicated beasts where all it took to make 'em shine was a brighter l¡ght behind them. If you changed systems, it was because you were earning enough to trade up to something that allowed you greater versatility within your field of reference. The only problem was that in money terms, outlay, you ended up buying the best several times over, because the gradual trading up was always more expensive than if you'd had had enough money to buy the best in the first instance. Credit was something experience led most of us to avoid.

    We all recognized that, but remember, neither was there a photographic "art" scene in the UK in those distant days. Pretty landscapes were used to decorate calendars much in the manner of kittens and puppies; girls were used to sell almost anything that had no appeal of its own - note the overwhelming beauty of the common tyre and the birth of the Pirelli phenomenon where, I'm sure, some will maintain the girl is but a distraction. For them, that brief period where P6 tread patterns were used as justifictaion will forever reign supreme, whereas for myself, they mark the calendar's lowest period, its abysmal nadir. Cameras were usually bought because of the work they allowed. If you had to shoot buildings you would probably end up loving 4x5 and not think of Hasselblads or Nikons. Post F, almost none of us gave a thought to Leica rangefinders. If you were studio-based you used 'blads or Rollei and even then, more and more stuff was shot on 135 format because it offered continuity of action and the relatively uninterrupted flow of building up to a moment, an emotional peak.

    However, that said, I have to admit that were one to ban discussions about equipment, I think pretty much all the Internet photographic forums would close through lack of interest.

    Why? Because I honestly think that very few photogaphers care a damn about other photographer's photographs unless they see the other guy has an eye that coincides with their own, in which case there's an almost instant affinity.

    Rob

    BernardLanguillier

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    Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
    « Reply #130 on: July 03, 2017, 07:52:31 am »

    Why? Because I honestly think that very few photogaphers care a damn about other photographer's photographs unless they see the other guy has an eye that coincides with their own, in which case there's an almost instant affinity.

    Rob,

    Maybe. Personally it is precisely when I see something different (from my work and/or from mainstream) that I am interested. ;)

    Cheers,
    Bernard

    JKoerner007

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    Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
    « Reply #131 on: July 03, 2017, 09:01:12 am »

    Rob,

    I think you're right in a way: arguing over equipment is almost always the problem when things turn south, but I am not sure it is a uniquely amateur problem. It has more to do with the approach of the individual.

    For example, as an amateur, I was hiking Joshua Tree a few months ago, during the "super-bloom," where all the desert flowers come out after the rains, and I came upon a man who was using a large format camera system mounted atop the most incredible tripod I had ever seen. He smiled when he saw me approach (with my Nikons, one with a super telephoto, the other with a wide-angle), and I was fascinated seeing the first large format photographer I have ever met in the wild. We stopped and said, "Hello." The man asked with honest curiosity, "What are you shooting?", and I asked the same of him, each discussing our goals with the other. At no point did I try to tell this man, "You should switch to what I am shooting, because it's lighter," and at no point did this man attempt to explain how much "better" his large format system was at producing large prints than what I was carrying. Instead, we just smiled at the recognition of each other as fellow photographers, we politely inquired as to each other's particulars, and then we parted company on very warm, positive, friendly note.

    Another example was just this last Friday: I drove 2 hours to meet with a woman bird photographer, who is involved with rehabilitating the California Condor, and she acted as a guide for me (as we met in her neck of the woods). She shot the Canon 7D II and a light 400mm L lens, and I had my Nikons. At no time did I try to tell her "why" she should switch to what I was using, or vice versa; instead, we had a great time each trying to land shots with the tools we both brought to accomplish the same purpose, pointing out bird-sightings to each other the whole day. We great time together ... and we continued to enjoy each other's company over the weekend ... via the internet ... "liking" each other's images on FB. We plan to meet again in another week, out of a kindred spirit for birding, not over gear.

    I am sure these meetings would have turned out much differently, had I pestered these people as to "how much better" my system was than theirs, or had they pestered me in a similar manner. However, by focusing on what we had in common, photography, both of these meetings were enriching.

    Having said that, if we revisit the thread sequence, dealing with the Nikon D850 release, what you saw was one person telling Nikon shooters how their cameras are "bricks," and going on and on about how "he would never" carry these bricks again. My mistake was to engage him, rather than ignore him.

    In closing, being curious about another photographer's gear is natural. Talking gear with another photographer can often be enlightening. However, trying to force your preferences on another, or scoff at their choices, compared to "yours," is not.

    I will try to remember this going forward, so thanks.

    BernardLanguillier

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    Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
    « Reply #132 on: July 03, 2017, 09:28:58 am »

    Isn't that the difference btwn a physical encounter and wb discussions? ;)

    Cheers,
    Bernard

    JKoerner007

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    Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
    « Reply #133 on: July 03, 2017, 10:21:34 am »

    Isn't that the difference btwn a physical encounter and wb discussions? ;)

    Cheers,
    Bernard

    Possibly. I think I have only encountered one person shooting a Sony in the field (Malibu cliffs). He had a little camera and a little lens. Convenient, yes, but also of limited application.

    He didn't try to "convert me," lol. (In fact, I believe he realized his own limitations, as he kept asking me about my camera(s), and my lenses, now that I think about it.)

    Which brings up another aspect of physical encounters ... and "smallness" of camera: I have never had anyone come up to me asking "what I shoot" ... when carrying a cell phone or a compact; no one cares.

    However, when I carry "the rocket launcher" (lol), and if I happen to be in a spot that gets tourists, I get people coming up to me several times/day, curious, even awed at times, asking questions about what I am doing--genuinely and openly fascinated. In particular, other photographers, carrying "smaller" (usually entry-level) gear are those who are most likely to approach, who will often confess their "lens envy" ;D

    Never once has a guy with a little camera approached me "thanking God" he didn't have that big lens ... invariably, it is exactly the opposite.
    Why? Because when you carry serious gear, people know you're serious about what you're doing.

    In the same fashion, I was fascinated by the large-format shooter in Joshua Tree. His gear looked very awkward, heavy, and much more difficult to take out in the middle of the desert than my own ... but I knew he was serious about what he was doing to spend that kind of money, and put out that kind of effort, to take his images.

    I've met a ton of Canon/Nikon shooters, a few of the other brands, but that was my first encounter with a large format shooter ... and the last thought in my mind was "my gear is lighter than yours" ... my first thought was, "Damn, I'd be very interested in checking out his work."

    I realize small, light, unobtrusive camera gear does have its place: unobtrusive street shots, touring, convenience ... but it really has no place with a wildlife or sports photographer: because you can't do much with it.

    I don't carry a lot heavy gear because it makes my hikes more pleasant; I carry it because I want to capture wildlife images that "little gear" can't capture as effectively. I will cut weight where I can; but if I can't I won't. I want the shots.

    Bernard ODonovan

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    Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
    « Reply #134 on: July 03, 2017, 03:16:59 pm »

    Frankly, the above spat is nothing but another manifestation of what's wrong with "amateur" photography, where the interest usually seems to be in the equipment.

    In all my long years in the business, and some years felt much longer than others, I never met a fellow pro who either cared deeply about, or had very much interest in what others were using. If you were a Pentax freak why would you care if the guy across the street used Nikon, and vice versa? They were all good systems capable of delivering what you wanted; you were usually the problem if there was one.

    Maybe it was all to do with the cameras: they were simple, uncomplicated beasts where all it took to make 'em shine was a brighter l¡ght behind them. If you changed systems, it was because you were earning enough to trade up to something that allowed you greater versatility within your field of reference. The only problem was that in money terms, outlay, you ended up buying the best several times over, because the gradual trading up was always more expensive than if you'd had had enough money to buy the best in the first instance. Credit was something experience led most of us to avoid.

    We all recognized that, but remember, neither was there a photographic "art" scene in the UK in those distant days. Pretty landscapes were used to decorate calendars much in the manner of kittens and puppies; girls were used to sell almost anything that had no appeal of its own - note the overwhelming beauty of the common tyre and the birth of the Pirelli phenomenon where, I'm sure, some will maintain the girl is but a distraction. For them, that brief period where P6 tread patterns were used as justifictaion will forever reign supreme, whereas for myself, they mark the calendar's lowest period, its abysmal nadir. Cameras were usually bought because of the work they allowed. If you had to shoot buildings you would probably end up loving 4x5 and not think of Hasselblads or Nikons. Post F, almost none of us gave a thought to Leica rangefinders. If you were studio-based you used 'blads or Rollei and even then, more and more stuff was shot on 135 format because it offered continuity of action and the relatively uninterrupted flow of building up to a moment, an emotional peak.

    However, that said, I have to admit that were one to ban discussions about equipment, I think pretty much all the Internet photographic forums would close through lack of interest.

    Why? Because I honestly think that very few photogaphers care a damn about other photographer's photographs unless they see the other guy has an eye that coincides with their own, in which case there's an almost instant affinity.

    Rob

    Hi Rob

    In the vacuum of anticipation and hearsay, these types of threads often drift a bit till the big day comes... No harm done...

    Yes our friends may need to say less to mean more... Their not too of topic though... Some great points were made...

    Your comments would make for a great thread, maybe in a different section of the forum...

    Now I have just added to the comments about comments...  And so the cycle of the Internet continues... ;D

    "Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear
    Technical questions and answers about field equipment"

    "Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
    This latest rumor of the replacement for the Nikon D810 looks pretty reasonable to me.

    https://nikonrumors.com/2017/05/04/new-set-of-rumored-nikon-d820-camera-specifications.aspx/

    Not all of what I want, but probably at least a baby-step forward.
    Modify message
    "




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    jeremyrh

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    Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
    « Reply #135 on: July 05, 2017, 01:33:52 am »

    Frankly, the above spat is nothing but another manifestation of what's wrong with "amateur" photography, where the interest usually seems to be in the equipment.

    Shame on the posters for enjoying themselves in the wrong way :-(
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    prairiewing

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    Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
    « Reply #136 on: July 06, 2017, 07:02:19 am »

    Quote:
    "In all my long years in the business, and some years felt much longer than others, I never met a fellow pro who either cared deeply about, or had very much interest in what others were using. "
    Rob


    I don't think that's changed much Rob.  When a photograph interests me I like to know what equipment was used because it sometimes tells me something about how the photographer works--medium format, 35mm for example.
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    Guillermo Luijk

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    Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
    « Reply #137 on: July 06, 2017, 11:47:17 am »

    Guillermo,

    I am sorry you feel it necessary to call me out on this.  It's your call.  I will assume you are an expert on the matter, and you thus  have all the facts.  I will stand down on my opinion.   You are correct the A7rII is superior to the D810 totally, and I guess I am just ignorant on how to use these cameras since I found different results than those that you found.    Net, the A7RII for me was not what I expected, and I returned it.    However that fact that your opinion varies from mine, IMO is no reason to assume I am not able to test such cameras on my own and thus don't have all the facts.  That is a bit of an insult. 

    Enjoy the A7RII.

    Paul Caldwell

    Paul, I am sorry if you consider an insult that I trust more reliable websites such as DxOMark or Dpreview than you, but if someone you don't know says something which contradicts trusted sources, common sense dictates to be on the other side. I wouldn't be annoyed if you said the same thing about me.

    Regarding the images you are showing, this can be quite subjetive but you said the Sony had excessive noise at ISO800 while the images show a very similar amount of noise, so both should be considered excessive or both aceptable. I am sorry to disagree with you in the finely tuned threshold you set.

    I cannot enjoy the A7R II since I don't have one.

    Regards

    BernardLanguillier

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    Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
    « Reply #138 on: July 07, 2017, 01:51:21 am »

    If rumors are to be believed, then the D820 may be announced on July 25th, which would be marking the 100 years of Nikon.

    It will be interesting to see how opinion split as to whether it marks the end of the first 100 years of Nikon or the beginning of the next 100. ;)

    Cheers,
    Bernard

    Paulo Bizarro

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    Re: Nikon D820 (more convincing rumor)
    « Reply #139 on: July 07, 2017, 03:54:55 am »

    If rumors are to be believed, then the D820 may be announced on July 25th, which would be marking the 100 years of Nikon.

    It will be interesting to see how opinion split as to whether it marks the end of the first 100 years of Nikon or the beginning of the next 100. ;)

    Cheers,
    Bernard

    No doubt it marks both?
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