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Author Topic: Skepticism about Climate Change  (Read 213934 times)

EricV

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #760 on: August 01, 2017, 06:08:44 pm »

Criminal lawyer: "my client did not do it"
Criminal lawyer: "but if he did, it was justified"

Global warming denier: "global warming is a hoax"
Global warming denier: "but if it is real, it is not harmful"
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Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #761 on: August 01, 2017, 10:53:28 pm »

   ?

The evidence keeps piling up and it's pointing in the same direction.

Future global mortality from changes in air pollution attributable to climate change
https://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nclimate3354.html

Unfortunately, access to the full article requires a subsciption, so we'll have to make due with the introduction which mentions the results from multiple combined models, and adds a warning for the use of only a single model.

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. Here are some more/earlier studies that are fully available (PDF links available on the pages):
Global premature mortality due to anthropogenic outdoor air pollution and the contribution of past climate change
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Global-premature-mortality-due-to-anthropogenic-ou-Malina-Ashok/38f2d10d0240db005c32362728fe2fdf98f2b642

Long-term air pollution exposure and cardio- respiratory mortality: a review
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Long-term-air-pollution-exposure-and-cardio-respir-Hoek-Krishnan/0261a649fc5d5701ead7224f2173605544b078f6

Air Pollution and Climate Change Effects on Allergies in the Anthropocene: Abundance, Interaction, and Modification of Allergens and Adjuvants
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Air-Pollution-and-Climate-Change-Effects-on-Allerg-Reinmuth-Selzle-Kampf/a86eafae39628a465195d6755333a9eef58af179

Estimates and 25-year trends of the global burden of disease attributable to ambient air pollution: an analysis of data from the Global Burden of Diseases Study 2015
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Estimates-and-25-year-trends-of-the-global-burden-Cohen-Brauer/494bdf3d12a1216589565feb346ee4d998cf41d5

The Economics of Health Damage and Adaptation to Climate Change in Europe: A Review of the Conventional and Grey Literature
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-Economics-of-Health-Damage-and-Adaptation-to-C-Martinez-Pezzoli/c703db9980fb76962d5d44dd9f7d877724a15940

Bart,
I've not met anyone who disputes that air pollution, from whatever source, can be harmful to human health. We all know that.

Countries which are struggling to industrialize and raise themselves out of poverty are faced with the choice of harnessing either a small amount of 'clean' but expensive energy, or a larger amount of cheaper energy without adequate emission controls. The harmful effects of hunger, disease and poverty are understandably considered to be greater than the harmful effects of air pollution from cheaply built vehicles and power plants.

As countries develop, as a result of plentiful supplies of cheap but polluting energy, and succeed in reducing the basic poverty of the population, as China has done, then such countries will tend to tackle the problem of inadequate emission controls, as China is now doing, and as most developed countries in the West have already done by regulating emissions of harmful pollutants from vehicles and power plants.

Now one can argue that such emission controls in developed countries are still not adequate. As the wealth and prosperity of a population increases, health standards tend to rise, but sometimes to excessive degrees whereby some people become so obsessed with cleanliness that they clean the house every day, wash their hands 20 times a day, and protect their children from contact with anything perceived as the slightest bit 'dirty', thus creating future problems for their children whose immune system tends not to develop properly.

Some people are so obsessed with cleanliness that they actually seem to believe that the clear, clean and odourless gas called CO2, which is essential for all life, is a pollutant. Can you imagine anything so absurd?  ;)

This gets to the nub of the problem; the conflation of different issues with different solutions into one problem with one solution.
For example, it's well established that increases in CO2 levels increase the growth of most crops, plants and forests, thus helping to 'green' the planet and provide greater food security for an expanding population. This fact can be established in real time, experimentally, in completely controlled conditions such as a greenhouse, and in less controlled conditions outside of a greenhouse, by wafting CO2 over plants, known as Free Air CO2 Enrichment or FACE.

How do the alarmists counter such evidence for the benefits of CO2? They conflate negative results relating to separate issues, which exist regardless of CO2 levels, and pretend that reducing CO2 levels is a sensible solution.

Those who have some knowledge of modern farming practices and/or who have explored methods of growing their own vegetables in their back garden, or who are just sensibly concerned about the nutritional value of the food they eat, will probably understand and appreciate that there are negative consequences of modern agricultural practices.

The goal of modern agriculture is to grow and harvest crops in the most efficient manner at the most competitive  price. If there's little or no Selenium in the soil, for example, that situation will not affect the growth of the plants, but it will ensure that the plants grown will contain very little Selenium, which is essential for good health.

The trend in modern agriculture results in carbon-depleted, poor quality soil which is continually enriched with the type of artificial fertilizers which ensure maximum growth, together with the application of pesticides to assist in maximum yield and good appearance. Both farmers and the consumers tend to be more concerned with the appearance of the fruit and vegetables, than the nutritional value.

There are a number of studies which suggest that the fruit and vegetables our great grandfathers ate were more nutritious than the food we eat today. An orange grown 150 years ago, in naturally fertile and carbon-rich soil, contained more Vitamin C than most oranges grown today.

The solution is to change our agricultural practices, or at least add the numerous minerals to the soil which don't enhance growth but do ensure the food is more nutritious.

The argument from the alarmists that CO2 increases have negative effects on plant nutrition because the uptake of certain minerals is not proportional to the increase in biomass growth, is something to take note of, but to imply that this could be another reason for reducing CO2 levels is absurd.

Whether the increased growth is due to the application of nitrogen fertilizers or elevated levels of CO2, it would be very dumb to argue in favour of reducing the application of growth-enhancing fertilizers in order to get half the amount of crop growth, especially when reducing CO2 levels costs money. A much, much better idea would be to add to the soil the minerals which are deficient, and improve the general health of the soil. The uptake of nutrients by plants is also dependent upon microbial activity in the soil, the presence of worms and other soil organisms.
http://www.fao.org/soils-2015/news/news-detail/en/c/277682/

In summary, we should exploit the advantageous benefits of increased CO2 levels. They're a wonderful gift.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 11:01:25 pm by Ray »
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Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #762 on: August 02, 2017, 07:04:42 am »

Another claim from the alarmists, which I would question, is the assertion that any benefits to plant growth from increased CO2 levels will be cancelled by increased droughts due to global warming resulting from the increased CO2 levels.

Let's examine the rationality of such an assertion.

Firstly, the benefits of CO2 are greatest when plants are water-stressed. A doubling of CO2  results, on average, in a 25-30% increase in plant growth with normally adequate water supply. However, in dry conditions, such as in semi-arid regions where plants are water-stressed, the increase in plant growth, from a doubling of CO2 levels, is in the region of 60%.

This is not news from crackpots, but from reputable sources. When the Australian deserts bloom, due to the occasional downpour of rain, they bloom far more magnificently than they would have done a couple of centuries ago, when CO2 levels were lower.

Secondly, the assertion that increased CO2 levels increase plant growth is based upon repeated experiments in real time, in accordance with the sound principles of the scientific methodology, keeping everything the same whilst changing just one variable. They are not based upon uncertain computer models which probably assume that any increase in drought conditions in any particular location will not be balanced by intelligent human intervention, such as building more dams, desalination plants, or even towing icebergs, wrapped up in plastic, to arid regions.

Thirdly, the Working Group 1 input to the latest AR5 IPCC report, which is based upon the physical sciences, stated that there was low confidence that droughts and floods had been increasing globally since 1950.
Projections of increasing droughts are still based upon computer models, which in the past have been notoriously wrong or inaccurate.

Fourthly, if the statement of 'low confidence' in increased droughts and floods during the past 60 years or so, results from insufficient data and observations, despite the sophistication and wide-spread proliferation of accurate measuring devices since the 1950's, then how much confidence can we have in measurements from proxy data such as ice cores, pollen, tree rings and lake sediments?

Alarmists tend to make statements such as, 'the current warming is the fastest that's occurred in the past 20 million years, due to human-induced CO2 rises'. Surely everyone who has even a moderate amount of common sense would understand the nonsense of such an assertion if we don't even know whether droughts and floods have been increasing during the past 60 years.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #763 on: August 02, 2017, 08:39:42 am »

Ray, While patterns may change, wouldn't there be more precipitation overall because there will be more evaporation if it gets hotter?  What effect would that have on food production,  floods,  storms,  deserts, etc.?

Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #764 on: August 02, 2017, 09:17:04 am »

Ray, While patterns may change, wouldn't there be more precipitation overall because there will be more evaporation if it gets hotter?  What effect would that have on food production,  floods,  storms,  deserts, etc.?

Yes. The Working Group 1 report in the AR5 IPCC did mention that there was strong (or moderate) confidence that precipitation had increased during the past 60 years. One would expect that to happen. As warming takes place, for whatever reason, more evaporation takes place and more clouds form. The evaporation causes an initial cooling. The clouds have an albedo effect, reflecting heat from the sun. When rain occurs, the heat is released, but mostly carried away with winds and convection to the upper atmosphere, rather than reflected back to the ground.

Mother nature is wonderful at balancing any changes. It's pure hubris (or fraud) for climate change alarmists to imagine and assert they can control climate by simply reducing the miniscule amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere.
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Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #765 on: August 02, 2017, 10:15:47 am »

 Here's an interesting update on the fate of Michael-Hockeystick-Mann.

http://principia-scientific.org/breaking-fatal-courtroom-act-ruins-michael-hockey-stick-mann/
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #766 on: August 02, 2017, 10:18:39 am »

Bart,
I've not met anyone who disputes that air pollution, from whatever source, can be harmful to human health. We all know that.

Countries which are struggling to industrialize and raise themselves out of poverty are faced with the choice of harnessing either a small amount of 'clean' but expensive energy, or a larger amount of cheaper energy without adequate emission controls. The harmful effects of hunger, disease and poverty are understandably considered to be greater than the harmful effects of air pollution from cheaply built vehicles and power plants.

Maybe the industrialized countries can help the developing countries to skip some of the polluting phases in their development? Denying the problem oneself is not helpful for anybody.

Quote
Some people are so obsessed with cleanliness that they actually seem to believe that the clear, clean and odourless gas called CO2, which is essential for all life, is a pollutant. Can you imagine anything so absurd?  ;)

Don't know about alarmists, but science and governments consider substances that are not necessarily directly poisonous, but also harmful ones, as pollutants. Examples are phosphorus and CO2 and many others:
https://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-pollutant-intermediate.htm
or in more detail:
https://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-pollutant-advanced.htm

And as mentioned in the Youtube video on those pages:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/05-1120.ZS.html
The US Supreme Court says that CO2 fits well within the definition of an air pollutant (see section 3 of the ruling). And the US EPA decided that CO2 should be regulated as a pollutant because the climate effects endanger both public health and public welfare.

Quote
This gets to the nub of the problem; the conflation of different issues with different solutions into one problem with one solution.
For example, it's well established that increases in CO2 levels increase the growth of most crops, plants and forests, thus helping to 'green' the planet and provide greater food security for an expanding population.

That's a red herring.

Certain levels CO2 are beneficial for the production of more biomass (not necessarily the fruits/seeds/etc. that are consumed).  Nobody denies that.

However, not all plants benefit the same at a given level, and it is not a simple 'more is better' either. Plants usually have a peak beyond which they will start doing worse, it differs for each specific plant/tree type. Also, healthy plants benefit less than disease stricken plants.

The issue that you conveniently keep missing is that there are also negative side effects that harm production of food-crops, even if we could ignore that plants and trees also require to have adequate water, nutrition, and sunlight, to grow. The simple lack of sunlight at extreme latitudes poses a natural limit on expanding areas for foodproduction, and global warming will cause droughts and floods that also do not help plant life. More harmful insect and fungus infestations are also not helpful, and using more pesticides threatens watersupplies. In fact, the indications from scientific research indicate that the net result is a reduction of food crops, more erosion, droughts, floods, extreme weather, and not to speak of ocean acidification and its effect on marine life, a major foodsource (especially in the future).

Quote
The goal of modern agriculture is to grow and harvest crops in the most efficient manner at the most competitive  price.

You're preaching to the choir: http://www.dutchfoodsystems.com/facts-figures/
The Dutch food production efficiency is among if not the highest in the world. We have limited space, so we need to use our resources efficiently. For example CO2 waste from e.g. oil refineries and other heavy industry, is fed to ajacent greenhouses that produce crops. Residual biomass is used for production of construction materials or fertilizer, water is recycled, water management regulates the watertable levels so grasslands can grow in the rght season and, after lowering the levels,  cows can then graze in the rest of the season without sinking into the soggy soil.

Lot's of research is being done, e.g. in the study linked below, and knowhow is exported to developing countries:
Adding apples and oranges: The monitoring of energy efficiency in the Dutch food industry
https://dspace.library.uu.nl/handle/1874/21665

Quote
In summary, we should exploit the advantageous benefits of increased CO2 levels. They're a wonderful gift.

That's why we inhale air and exhale more CO2 than we inhaled. It's a waste product, some of which is used by plants, but there's too much being added to the atmosphere, so the rest is destabilizing the natural balance which therefore leads to global warming, despite a reduction of solar energy.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #767 on: August 02, 2017, 10:34:12 am »

Here's an interesting update on the fate of Michael-Hockeystick-Mann.

http://principia-scientific.org/breaking-fatal-courtroom-act-ruins-michael-hockey-stick-mann/
It's a long report Ray.  How about summarizing it in a hundred words or less. 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #768 on: August 02, 2017, 11:52:16 am »

It's a long report Ray.  How about summarizing it in a hundred words or less.

It's about an ongoing libel suit between Timothy Ball and Michael E. Mann.

Ball is a geologist who rejects the scientific opinion on climate change, stating that "CO2 is not a greenhouse gas" and who's private research is heavily funded by the oil industry. Mann is an American climatologist and geophysicist, currently director of the Earth System Science Center at Pennsylvania State University, who for some (intellectual property?) reasons has failed to hand over data requested by the court in time.

Maybe Ray has read the court files, maybe he is basing his expert legal opinion on second-hand information from a website that speculates about what the court may do in response?

Cheers,
Bart
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Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #769 on: August 02, 2017, 02:07:29 pm »

I don't know how this will play out, but I'm paying attention. Here's another site which explains the situation.
http://principia-scientific.org/breaking-fatal-courtroom-act-ruins-michael-hockey-stick-mann/

  "As can be seen from the graphs below; Mann’s cherry-picked version of science makes the Medieval Warm Period (MWP) disappear and shows a pronounced upward ‘tick’ in the late 20th century (the blade of his ‘hockey stick’). But below that, Ball’s graph, using more reliable and widely available public data, shows a much warmer MWP, with temperatures hotter than today, and showing current temperatures well within natural variation.

Michael Mann, who chose to file what many consider to be a cynical SLAPP (Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation) libel suit in the British Columbia Supreme Court, Vancouver six long years ago, has astonished legal experts by refusing to comply with the court direction to hand over all his disputed graph’s data. Mann’s iconic hockey stick has been relied upon by the UN’s IPCC and western governments as crucial evidence for the science
of ‘man-made global warming."


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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #770 on: August 02, 2017, 06:57:25 pm »

It's about an ongoing libel suit between Timothy Ball and Michael E. Mann.

Ball is a geologist who rejects the scientific opinion on climate change, stating that "CO2 is not a greenhouse gas" and who's private research is heavily funded by the oil industry. Mann is an American climatologist and geophysicist, currently director of the Earth System Science Center at Pennsylvania State University, who for some (intellectual property?) reasons has failed to hand over data requested by the court in time.

Maybe Ray has read the court files, maybe he is basing his expert legal opinion on second-hand information from a website that speculates about what the court may do in response?

Cheers,
Bart
It seems his research is phony to support global warming.  So he's not turning the papers over to the court as it would show he lied. 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #771 on: August 02, 2017, 07:25:13 pm »

It seems his research is phony to support global warming.  So he's not turning the papers over to the court as it would show he lied.

Your assumption, I assume? Based on what? Might IP (copyright) which is applicable in the USA but not in Canada have anything to do with it? I don't know, I've neither read the relevant court papers, nor the legislation for the specific jurisdiction. Have you? Why call it phony then?

His (Michael Mann's) research has been repeated time and time again by others, and while improved instrumentation has become more accurate, the more recent findings agree with the recent trend break he signaled, why discard that without first examining it? Sounds like you have a pretty biased 'opinion' (guilty unless, or even regardless, of him being found to be guilty, or even innocent of the suspicion of libel) ...

The court case is not even about the topic we're discussing, but it's about libel. A typical red herring, which looks like Ray's M.O., to deduct anything else from it.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 07:28:42 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #772 on: August 02, 2017, 09:43:33 pm »

His (Michael Mann's) research has been repeated time and time again by others...

And debunked by hundreds of other peer-reviewed studies.

This lawsuit reminds me of the defamation case instigated by the famous Irish writer, Oscar Wilde, in the days when homosexuality was illegal, during the Victorian era. He sued the father of one of his lovers who had called him a sodomite, in order to protect his own reputation.
Big mistake! During the trial it was revealed that Oscar Wilde really was a homosexual. He was jailed for two years then spent the rest of his life in exile, wandering around Europe.

Another analogy representing Michael Mann's predicament, would be that of someone submitting a photo in a photographic contest where the rules were that the photo should not be excessively photoshopped and should clearly represent the subject.

One of the judges gets suspicious that the submitted photo had been significantly altered, and requests that the original RAW image be shown. If the contestant were to refuse to show the original image on the grounds it is copyrighted, what would you think? Fair and reasonable?  ;D
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #773 on: August 02, 2017, 10:47:34 pm »

Your assumption, I assume? Based on what? Might IP (copyright) which is applicable in the USA but not in Canada have anything to do with it? I don't know, I've neither read the relevant court papers, nor the legislation for the specific jurisdiction. Have you? Why call it phony then?

His (Michael Mann's) research has been repeated time and time again by others, and while improved instrumentation has become more accurate, the more recent findings agree with the recent trend break he signaled, why discard that without first examining it? Sounds like you have a pretty biased 'opinion' (guilty unless, or even regardless, of him being found to be guilty, or even innocent of the suspicion of libel) ...

The court case is not even about the topic we're discussing, but it's about libel. A typical red herring, which looks like Ray's M.O., to deduct anything else from it.

Cheers,
Bart
Mann the global warming supporter sued for libel because the defendant claimed he lied about Mann's claim that global warming is real.   Mann could have proved he wasn't lying and won the libel suit by showing his research data.  He refused to show it even going against the judge when ordered to show it.  The judge held him in contempt of court.  So he lied that his research proved global warming is real.   He would have shown his data if it really proved it.

Next case. 

Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #774 on: August 02, 2017, 11:53:44 pm »

For those interested, here are some references to peer-reviewed research on the topic of previous warm periods such as the Medieval Warm Period.

http://www.climatedepot.com/2013/03/08/more-than-700-scientists-from-400-institutions-in-40-countries-have-contributed-peerreviewed-papers-providing-evidence-that-the-medieval-warm-period-was-real-global-warmer-than-the-present/

Written in March 8, 2013:
"Global warming activists and media outlets are hyping a new study published in Science that claims the Earth is experiencing unprecedented temperatures. See: New York Times: Global Temperatures Highest in 4,000 Years & Associated Press: HEAT SPIKE UNLIKE ANYTHING IN 11,000 YEARS
But the new study is counter to a preponderance of existing peer-reviewed studies showing the Medieval Warm Period and the Roman Warming were both as warm or warmer than today without benefit of modern emissions or SUVs.

Penn State Professor Michael Mann has made similar claims of modern temperatures being the warmest, but such “Hockey Stick” temperature claims have been demolished in the scientific literature.

The latest research clearly reveals that the Medieval Warm Period (used to be referred to as the Medieval Climate Optimum) has been verified and was in fact global, not just confined to the Northern Hemisphere."



Here are some other sites and references to research that support the contention that the MPW was real and global.

https://climatism.wordpress.com/2014/02/01/new-paper-shows-medieval-warm-period-was-global-in-scope/
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/01/09/evidence-of-the-medieval-warm-period-in-australia-new-zealand-and-oceania/
http://kaltesonne.de/mapping-the-medieval-warm-period/
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #775 on: August 03, 2017, 12:05:21 am »

Ray, I'm calling the current period The Second Post Ice Age Warm Period.   

We've got to get people to start thinking along a different track then industrial age warming or whatever the climate change supporters now call it.   Does my name work?  Any changes you might recommend? 

Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #776 on: August 03, 2017, 01:11:46 am »

Any changes you might recommend?

The "head in the sand period"?  Just like Trump.  Fluffy names to try to make something bad sound good.
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Phil Brown

Ray

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #777 on: August 03, 2017, 09:16:57 am »

Ray, I'm calling the current period The Second Post Ice Age Warm Period.   

We've got to get people to start thinking along a different track then industrial age warming or whatever the climate change supporters now call it.   Does my name work?  Any changes you might recommend?

Allan,
As I understand, there have been a number of warm periods in the recent past, which have been similar to today's warming.
Previous to the Medieval Warm Period, from around 900 AD to 1300 AD, there was the Roman Warm period, from around 250 BC to 400 AD.
Warm periods tend to be beneficial for mankind. The Roman Empire was a thriving civilization, as our modern civilization is.

I've come across the following research that attempts to identify possible causes of such changes, apart from CO2 levels.
It'll be interesting to see how the following prediction by German Physicists works out. If they are correct, we should soon begin to see a slight cooling.

"In a just published study in The Open Atmospheric Science Journal here, German scientists Horst-Joachim Lüdecke and Carl-Otto Weiss have used a large number of temperature proxies worldwide to construct a global temperature mean over the last 2000 years, dubbed G7, in order to find out more about the sun’s role on climate change."

"The analysis by the German scientists shows the strongest climate cycle components as 1000, 460, and 190-year periods. The G7 global temperature extremes coincide with the Roman, Medieval, and present optima, as well as the well-known minimum of AD 1450 during the Little Ice Age."

http://principia-scientific.org/new-study-by-german-physicists-concludes-we-can-expect-climate-cooling-for-next-50-years/

I guess Bart would call such Physicists crackpots. How dare they contradict the fictitious 97% consensus that the current warming is caused by CO2 emissions!  ;D

The full article is free, by the way.
https://benthamopen.com/FULLTEXT/TOASCJ-11-44

And here's another study from Norwegian scientists.
http://principia-scientific.org/norwegian-scientist-global-cooling-beginning-due-low-solar-activity/
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #778 on: August 03, 2017, 09:45:47 am »

Ray, I've been claiming for years it's changes in the sun that have caused the warming and cooling periods.  It's nice to see the Germans and Norwegians finally agree with me. :)

What's interesting is that they found it was getting hotter before the current higher CO2 production periods.  from your second link:

"Zawiska and colleagues also point out that the rise in modern era temperatures began around 1800, not the 20th century.  In fact, they find that temperatures rose by 4.3°C (from 8.5°C to 12.8°C) within 75 years starting at the beginning of the 19th century (+0.57°C per decade), and this warming “correlates with the positive NAO index and increased solar activity.”   The authors further indicate that the warming in the 20th/21st centuries has been “less pronounced” by comparison."

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #779 on: August 03, 2017, 10:10:47 am »

What I find more important then whether temperatures are rising, is if there are more benefits than less if the earth is warmer.   It's awfully conceited to believe that the climate was "perfect" 75 or 150 years ago in the 4 1/2 billion years history of the earth.  How can one make that narrow judgment?   After all, did anyone check with the dinosaurs? :) 

While one could argue that warming will cause issues for some, the media and politicians and global warming supporters push the idea that there aren't any benefits from warming.  Well, I'd like to remind them that where I grew up in the Bronx, NY, there was a thousand foot high glacier 12,000 years ago during the last Ice Age.  In fact, the entire North American landscape was covered in ice, snow and glaciers and nothing grew.   Today, we have the beautiful Hudson Valley, the Finger Lakes of NY, the 5 Great Lakes of the mid-west and all the fertile area in-between where millions of people, animals and plants now live successfully because it's been warming up.
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