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Author Topic: FF versus MF  (Read 24264 times)

Jim Kasson

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #80 on: April 27, 2017, 12:30:04 pm »

I tried a camera club, once or twice, but soon found that there was nothing there that interested me and what I did was of little interest to them. Forums like these are better, on a good day.

I wouldn't call it a camera club, but my association with this group has been of great benefit:

http://www.imagemakers.gallery/

Also this one:

http://photography.org/

Jim

Brad P

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #81 on: April 27, 2017, 01:05:12 pm »

One thing I am learning on these photo forums is what a wide variety of photographers we are . . ..  I have been more interested in process than the resulting photos. And by “process” I mean the state of mind when taking photos, and how that works. Few seem interested in that.

I tried a camera club, once or twice, but soon found that there was nothing there that interested me and what I did was of little interest to them. Forums like these are better, on a good day.

Bernard L probably should improve upon my memory, but this reminds me of a zen philosophical strand teaching that in life we have many pursuits. If we are mindful as we pursue, each can teach us little bits about the nature of perfection itself. 

Anyway, I wish I had paid more attention all along, digress and apologize for straying from the topic (before a bad day begins on this post).
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #82 on: April 27, 2017, 02:19:25 pm »

Chacun a son gout. I find it rewarding to have my photographs in galleries and on other people walls. I also found that having exhibition catalogs published was satisfying. I even went as far as publishing a short run (1000 copies) book of the Staccato work.

I think of photography as a communications medium.

At the same time, I appreciate that the process itself can be a pleasure.  I used to particularly like teh zen-like state I would get into when doing street photography.

Jim

Hi,

The way I see it, the only reason to use advanced equipment is to print large. My first digital camera was a Canon Ixus and it had 2MP. Nearly enough to fill a full HD screen. Going to 4K, we can make use of eight megapixels.

Obviously, there is more to images than megapixels. Just as an example, although cell phones can have high resolutions they don't have a wide selection of focal lengths.

But, the only reason to go for high image quality is printing large.

Yes, we can pixel peep all we want. But, real images are not intended for pixel peeping. I would say that 12 MP is good enough for a remarkably good 16"x23" print. If you don't print larger, a 12 to 16 MP 4/3 sensor would be quiet good enough. Printing twice the linear size, 32"x46" would make good use of around 50 MP.

My next major investment may be a 4K projector. Projecting a 4K image 1.7m wide would make good use of a 10 MP image, when viewed at 1.5m distance.

Best regards
Erik
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Jim Kasson

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #83 on: April 27, 2017, 02:33:26 pm »

I find it rewarding to have my photographs in galleries and on other people walls. I also found that having exhibition catalogs published was satisfying. I even went as far as publishing a short run (1000 copies) book of the Staccato work.

I think of photography as a communications medium.


Facebook has a way of reminding you of what you posted on this day in 20xx, and a few minutes ago they fed back to me a post I made five years ago, with yet another reason for getting your photography out in the world:

Quote
I made a presentation to one of Kevin Bransfield’s MPC photography classes on Monday. Yesterday, Kevin sent me this email:

“My students (and myself included) thoroughly enjoyed your presentation on Monday. Thank you so much for coming in. We played around with using curves to solarize after you left and talked about the joys of using cameras in ways they weren't made to be used. The class was out photographing with neutral density filters this afternoon and we spontaneously started talking about how your Staccato series transforms the world into a new way of seeing the world that has a lot of emotion in it. Thanks again and I look forward to seeing you.”

Kevin, you and your students couldn’t have enjoyed it any more than I did. It was a rewarding afternoon, and getting an email like this makes the feeling last.

Fellow photographers, if Kevin asks you to help him out, do it; you’ll be glad.

Jim

Brad P

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #84 on: April 27, 2017, 03:50:24 pm »

Having fallen into a research rabbit hole for a few weeks and forgetting a basic photoshop shortcut last night, I just laid plans to demo an X1D in a few weeks.  I'll post my impressions somewhere then.  It will not be as convincing or useful as Mr. Kasson's numbers/graphs, but there should be some images of Hawaii at least.  And an attempt at a 20+ frame focus stack for sure. 

I did remember the other part of the koan in the meantime:  As a person mindfully focuses on perfecting one pursuit after another, s/he learns more and more about the nature of perfection itself and, in time, may glimpse into their own true nature.

That's what they said anyway.  Too late with my photography, hopefully not others.
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BJL

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Re: FF versus MF: will lenses be the ultimate limit on sensor downsizing?
« Reply #85 on: April 27, 2017, 08:00:39 pm »

Do you think the advance of sensor technology would come to a point where it would make bigger sensor obsolete?
I do not pretend to Jim's expertise, but one likely long-term limit I see is lenses — we might not be so very far from sensors being able to squeeze every useful bit of information out of the light delivered to the focal plane by the lens.  For example, the pixel sizes in some small sensors are down to about twice the wavelength of light, so that fundamental limit on sensor resolution is "in sight", so to speak.  But I doubt that lens for formats like 36x24mm will even resolve as finely as that.  In fact one limit is aperture ratios and thus diffraction; I believe that there is a fundamental optical limit to about f/0.7 (cue comments about the so-called "Kubrick lenses", really "NASA moonshot lenses": some f/0.7 lenses originally produced by Zeiss for the moon landing program). And more likely, good corner-to-corner image quality at high resolution will always limit aperture ratios to something distinctly higher, maybe f/2, and thus with diffraction spot size about 2 microns across, so I doubt that formats 36x24mm or larger will ever resolve well (with high MTF and so with good local contrast) below about 2 microns.  If so, 36x24 is resolution limited to a mere 18000x12000 pixels or about 200MP! (Even if more, smaller pixels are used for "oversampling" to sustain fancy post-processing.)

Coming down to earth, lens limits like aberrations and diffraction will probably set distinctly lower limits on the usable resolution in various formats, and I doubt that 36x24 will ever completely match what 54x40mm can do in some demanding situations.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: FF versus MF: will lenses be the ultimate limit on sensor downsizing?
« Reply #86 on: April 28, 2017, 02:18:59 pm »

Hi,

We may have some answers next year, or so, when we may have 70+ MP on 24x36, 100 MP on 44x33 and 150 MP on 54x40.

We have a lot of very good lenses for 24x36 mm now, think Otus and Sigma Art, with Batis not far behind. Canon is busy redesigning it's lenses.

Fuji says that the GFX lenses are calculated for 100 MP and I guess that also applies to the Hasselad X1D.

So, I guess we are going to see some pressure from the smaller formats versus the larger formats.

To that comes usability. You can have 150 MP, but it may not help if you cannot achieve critical focus, no vibration or need to stop down into diffraction limited region.

Best regards
Erik


I do not pretend to Jim's expertise, but one likely long-term limit I see is lenses — we might not be so very far from sensors being able to squeeze every useful bit of information out of the light delivered to the focal plane by the lens.  For example, the pixel sizes in some small sensors are down to about twice the wavelength of light, so that fundamental limit on sensor resolution is "in sight", so to speak.  But I doubt that lens for formats like 36x24mm will even resolve as finely as that.  In fact one limit is aperture ratios and thus diffraction; I believe that there is a fundamental optical limit to about f/0.7 (cue comments about the so-called "Kubrick lenses", really "NASA moonshot lenses": some f/0.7 lenses originally produced by Zeiss for the moon landing program). And more likely, good corner-to-corner image quality at high resolution will always limit aperture ratios to something distinctly higher, maybe f/2, and thus with diffraction spot size about 2 microns across, so I doubt that formats 36x24mm or larger will ever resolve well (with high MTF and so with good local contrast) below about 2 microns.  If so, 36x24 is resolution limited to a mere 18000x12000 pixels or about 200MP! (Even if more, smaller pixels are used for "oversampling" to sustain fancy post-processing.)

Coming down to earth, lens limits like aberrations and diffraction will probably set distinctly lower limits on the usable resolution in various formats, and I doubt that 36x24 will ever completely match what 54x40mm can do in some demanding situations.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Maverick02

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #87 on: April 28, 2017, 08:17:01 pm »

Quote from Erik on 4/28
Quote
We may have some answers next year, or so, when we may have 70+ MP on 24x36

Really, so you don't believe the chatter about Sony coming out with something in that range this summer.
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Gigi

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #88 on: April 28, 2017, 09:58:18 pm »


But, the only reason to go for high image quality is printing large.

Yes, we can pixel peep all we want. But, real images are not intended for pixel peeping. I would say that 12 MP is good enough for a remarkably good 16"x23" print. If you don't print larger, a 12 to 16 MP 4/3 sensor would be quiet good enough.

Best regards
Erik

Oh, I wish I could agree. It may depend what you shoot, but for the detail I'm working for, no way 12mp works for a 16 x 23. They just fall apart.

On another note, there are advantages to excess resolution - you can crop liberally if necessary, and get by with a single lens more than not.
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Geoff

ErikKaffehr

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #89 on: April 28, 2017, 10:01:53 pm »

Hi,

Sony has published a roadmap for MFD-sensors and it says 2018. There has been some info about a 70+ MP sensor from Sony in 24x36, but it has not been confirmed, so we need to wait and see.

So, it is not before next year we can see the full landscape.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from Erik on 4/28
Really, so you don't believe the chatter about Sony coming out with something in that range this summer.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

BernardLanguillier

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #90 on: April 28, 2017, 10:31:29 pm »

Sony has published a roadmap for MFD-sensors and it says 2018. There has been some info about a 70+ MP sensor from Sony in 24x36, but it has not been confirmed, so we need to wait and see.

So, it is not before next year we can see the full landscape.

I would estimate the odds of Sony not coming up in 2017 with an a9r featuring a sensor with at least 60mp to be around 2.37%.

Cheers,
Bernard

ErikKaffehr

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Some reflections…
« Reply #91 on: April 29, 2017, 01:37:12 am »

Hi,

Jim Kasson has looked into comparing the GFX with the A7rII. In his data the GFX had some significant advantage in resolution bot using Fujinon lenses and when comparing the same Otus lens on both.

At present, MFD does not have on sensor PDAF and that limits autofocus capabilities. CDAF can be very accurate, but it is slow and it also needs lenses with fast AF-movements.

Sony says 100MP 44x33 and 150MP 54x40 sensors arrive next year and I would expect that those sensors have PDAF. So, I would expect some new cameras from Hasselblad and Fuji, with 100MP and on sensor PDAF.

There has been a lot of talk about a 70+ MP Sony sensor for a long time and my guess would be that it will show up before long. But, I am not sure about Sony's lenses keeping up. Yes, we can use Sony cameras with Canon mount and other lenses, using adapters. But, I don't think adapters are a professional solution.

On the other hand, I am not sure professionals are in the search of the ultimate lens. Professionals are probably most interested in gear that is needed to get the job done.

Jim also looked into prints and have essentially found that Sony A7rII and GFX were very close at 15" print height. Going to 30" there was some real advantage to the GFX based on close inspection.

Both the GFX and the X1D are affordable in MFD terms, they cost like twice the leading high resolutions 24x36 mm systems (A7rII, 5DsR and Nikon D810). Comparing cameras like the D5 and the D1XII to MFD makes little sense to me.

The GFX system has great prospect for the future, but I guess they need to iron out a few issues.

Best regards
Erik
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Erik Kaffehr
 

landscapephoto

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Re: FF versus MF: will lenses be the ultimate limit on sensor downsizing?
« Reply #92 on: April 29, 2017, 05:17:01 am »

I do not pretend to Jim's expertise, but one likely long-term limit I see is lenses — we might not be so very far from sensors being able to squeeze every useful bit of information out of the light delivered to the focal plane by the lens.  For example, the pixel sizes in some small sensors are down to about twice the wavelength of light, so that fundamental limit on sensor resolution is "in sight", so to speak.  But I doubt that lens for formats like 36x24mm will even resolve as finely as that.  In fact one limit is aperture ratios and thus diffraction; I believe that there is a fundamental optical limit to about f/0.7 (cue comments about the so-called "Kubrick lenses", really "NASA moonshot lenses": some f/0.7 lenses originally produced by Zeiss for the moon landing program). And more likely, good corner-to-corner image quality at high resolution will always limit aperture ratios to something distinctly higher, maybe f/2, and thus with diffraction spot size about 2 microns across, so I doubt that formats 36x24mm or larger will ever resolve well (with high MTF and so with good local contrast) below about 2 microns.  If so, 36x24 is resolution limited to a mere 18000x12000 pixels or about 200MP! (Even if more, smaller pixels are used for "oversampling" to sustain fancy post-processing.)

Coming down to earth, lens limits like aberrations and diffraction will probably set distinctly lower limits on the usable resolution in various formats, and I doubt that 36x24 will ever completely match what 54x40mm can do in some demanding situations.

There is no theoretical limit on the resolution of lenses, except diffraction. Diffraction, however, should not be under-estimated, as we also need some depth of field unless shooting perfectly flat subjects. In normal photographic practice, the compromises between diffraction and depth of field are real, as anybody who tried to use a 8"x10" view camera would find out. This compromise also becomes apparent when stitching is used to increase resolution: only landscapes at far distance are routinely imaged.

There is no theoretical limit, but there are practical ones. Optics have made progresses, but not as fast as electronics. In practice, lenses are compromises on aberrations, price and size/weight. The optical engineer can build very good lenses for high-definition MF sensors, but they will be huge and heavy. When they are not, other tricks are used like software corrections of distortion or chromatic aberrations to relax the constraints a bit.

So what gives? At present, the maximum resolution available in a single lens frame is 200 mpix (by moving the sensor around). Presently available MF lenses cope, when stopped down a bit. An educated guess is that this would also be around the practical limit, give or take some.

Another important fact is that seemingly large increases in number of pixels correspond to relatively moderate increase in practical detail level. A good rule of thumb is that, to get a noticeable effect, one needs to double the resolution. This is very noticeable for 24x36 cameras where the manufacturers present resolution increase between, say, 36 and 42 mpix as significant while they are not unless peeping pixels. Today, the maximum resolution for 24x36 cameras is 50 mpix. An increase to, say, 70 mpix is not likely to break the lenses.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: FF versus MF: will lenses be the ultimate limit on sensor downsizing?
« Reply #93 on: April 29, 2017, 06:20:47 am »

Hi,

Increasing sensor resolution will improve any lens. The MTF of the system is MTF of the lens times the MTF of the sensor. So as long as the MTF of the lens is above zero it will gain image quality when paired with a better sensor.

Best regards
Erik

There is no theoretical limit on the resolution of lenses, except diffraction. Diffraction, however, should not be under-estimated, as we also need some depth of field unless shooting perfectly flat subjects. In normal photographic practice, the compromises between diffraction and depth of field are real, as anybody who tried to use a 8"x10" view camera would find out. This compromise also becomes apparent when stitching is used to increase resolution: only landscapes at far distance are routinely imaged.

There is no theoretical limit, but there are practical ones. Optics have made progresses, but not as fast as electronics. In practice, lenses are compromises on aberrations, price and size/weight. The optical engineer can build very good lenses for high-definition MF sensors, but they will be huge and heavy. When they are not, other tricks are used like software corrections of distortion or chromatic aberrations to relax the constraints a bit.

So what gives? At present, the maximum resolution available in a single lens frame is 200 mpix (by moving the sensor around). Presently available MF lenses cope, when stopped down a bit. An educated guess is that this would also be around the practical limit, give or take some.

Another important fact is that seemingly large increases in number of pixels correspond to relatively moderate increase in practical detail level. A good rule of thumb is that, to get a noticeable effect, one needs to double the resolution. This is very noticeable for 24x36 cameras where the manufacturers present resolution increase between, say, 36 and 42 mpix as significant while they are not unless peeping pixels. Today, the maximum resolution for 24x36 cameras is 50 mpix. An increase to, say, 70 mpix is not likely to break the lenses.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #94 on: April 29, 2017, 08:24:20 am »

Hi,

My judgement here is based on some experience and some reading.

  • I switched from 12MP APS-C to 24MP on full frame in 2008, at that time there was a lot of difference in files but not so much in print.
  • It is often stated that around 180 PPI are needed for excellent prints, that happens to be 12 MP, pretty exactly.
  • Above statement applies to 20/20 vision at 50 cm viewing distance
  • A very demonstrative experiment is to downscale a high res image to 12 MP and than upsize to original resolution. Print both images at A2 size and check the differences. have you done that? I have…
  • In an interview with Michael Reichmann here on Lula, Ctein's who is known as possibly the worlds best printing artist claims that 16 MP is good enough for A2 and can match anything he has shot on 67 film. It may be taken out of context, but it is still an interesting statement.
  • Personally, I graduated from 12 MP APS-C to 24 MP full frame and from that to 39 MP on a 37x49 mm back. Right now I am shooting 42 MP on 24x36 mm.
Choices are not always that simple. I was shooting a late evening with my 24 MP Sony Alpha 900.  It was windy and I was concerned about wind induced blur in trees.

So I also shot with my 16 MP APS-C camera, a Sony A55 SLT. The A55 allowed me to use a better lens. Live view focus made that I could focus more accurately and the A55 had a new sensor with better high ISO capability. In the end, the 16 MP APS-C image made it to the wall, in A2-size. I printed both images in A2 but it was the 16 MP print that made it to the wall. It was a very close call, though.

When I got the A7rII that resolves 42 MP the Hasselblad V/P45+ kit went into wardrobe state. I was shooting like 4000 frames a year with the P45+, but after the A7rII arrived it is more like 200-400 frames a year. Nice to shoot with classic gear, but zero benefits compared to the new…

Best regards
Erik

Oh, I wish I could agree. It may depend what you shoot, but for the detail I'm working for, no way 12mp works for a 16 x 23. They just fall apart.

On another note, there are advantages to excess resolution - you can crop liberally if necessary, and get by with a single lens more than not.
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Gigi

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #95 on: April 29, 2017, 08:56:18 am »

  • Above statement applies to 20/20 vision at 50 cm viewing distance

Yes, your research is quite good. The difference is the criteria.
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Geoff

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #96 on: April 29, 2017, 10:44:19 am »

I believe the advantage/characteristic of MF is rather defined by its sensor size than by MPs. When shooting FF, I do not pick up a camera with highest MPs, but one with better ergonomics, lenses. In most cases, Leica SL's 24Mps seem plenty for landscape photography.
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BJL

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #97 on: April 29, 2017, 12:16:01 pm »

Yes, your research is quite good. The difference is the criteria.
That's why I prefer to think in terms of apparent image size: ratio of image size to viewing distance. About 12MP, or at worst Ctein's 16MP, seems enough for "normal" viewing like an 8x10 print from a distance of 12 — and that could be inches or feet or meters. And under those conditions, diffraction does not hurt sharpness much until a bit beyond f/8 in 36x24mm format, so adequate DOF is usually not a problem. (Aside: it becomes f/32 for 5"x4" format, f/64 for 10"x; same DOF though!)

What mystifies me is how to get adequate DOF at 100MP and beyond: apertures need to be almost three times larger than at 12MP to control diffraction, and then to see all the extra detail you need to view prints almost three times bigger for the same viewing distance (or view from almost three time as close) which reduces even more the part that is in sharp focus. Are we then limited to grand outdoor scenes with no foreground needing to be sharply detailed?

P. S. Perhaps I am at an extreme: the only benefit I have seen from going beyond 10MP is more latitude for loose framing and "zoom by cropping" with moving and distant subjects like wildlife.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 12:22:52 pm by BJL »
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Jim Kasson

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #98 on: April 29, 2017, 12:36:32 pm »


  • A very demonstrative experiment is to downscale a high res image to 12 MP and than upsize to original resolution. Print both images at A2 size and check the differences. have you done that? I have…

Not fair, Erik, unless you are talking about non-Bayer cameras.

Jim

Brad P

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Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #99 on: April 29, 2017, 03:15:45 pm »

  • It is often stated that around 180 PPI are needed for excellent prints, that happens to be 12 MP, pretty exactly.
  • Above statement applies to 20/20 vision at 50 cm viewing distance
  • A very demonstrative experiment is to downscale a high res image to 12 MP and than upsize to original resolution. Print both images at A2 size and check the differences. have you done that? I have…
  • In an interview with Michael Reichmann here on Lula, Ctein's who is known as possibly the worlds best printing artist claims that 16 MP is good enough for A2 and can match anything he has shot on 67 film. It may be taken out of context, but it is still an interesting statement.

Not wanting nor able to argue with either Ctein nor Schewe (e.g. for a quick example here, www.digitalphotopro.com/technique/photography-workflow/the-right-resolution/), especially when upscaling to print at >3' sizes, I think I'll take the over on resolution all other things being equal.  In my own prints and for fine art quality on gloss or high resolution luster papers, it seems to make a difference, especially up close (where one goes if really intrigued with a piece). Although it also seems to my 55 yr old reading glasses eyes that it's not much and inkjet printers definitely blur the pixels . . . it is still noticeable. 

Jim, I'm going to demo both the GFX and X1D over the next month.  I don't have any fancy science equipment, but if there's parts of Maui you'd like to see in Zerene 20 frame manual focus stacks I can try to accommodate. 
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