Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6   Go Down

Author Topic: FF versus MF  (Read 24224 times)

Brad P

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 260
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2017, 11:46:28 am »

Jim, from what I've seen, there are only a few people in the world who have given us as accurate a view of the GFX as you have.  Thanks for that.  Numbers/graphs notwithstanding of course.

It does seem to occupy a sweet spot in the market right now.  Since we're truth telling, I loaded up my B&H shopping cart with GFX gear again last night, then deleted it.  I already am having a difficult time waiting. 
Logged

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2017, 11:50:55 am »

Jim, from what I've seen, there are only a few people in the world who have given us as accurate a view of the GFX as you have.  Thanks for that.  Numbers/graphs notwithstanding of course.

It does seem to occupy a sweet spot in the market right now.  Since we're truth telling, I loaded up my B&H shopping cart with GFX gear again last night, then deleted it.  I already am having a difficult time waiting.

Now ads for the GFX are going to appear wherever you go on the web. They're going to wear you down.  :)

Jim

Brad P

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 260
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2017, 12:17:33 pm »

Aha!  B&H that did that to me the previous time I set it up in my cart!   GFX has been all over my browser (and Swiss watches too, maybe from eBay).  It was actually a combo of your A7RII/GFX print blog, the fact that I'm not excited to run out and shoot with my Sony, Fuji's promise of a firmware update next month to correct focusing issues, and ultimately my impestuous nature.  Right now, I really don't know what I actually am going to do given all that (and the ads!).  Time to reset Safari to at least rule that out. 

Adding to my quandary, sonyalpharumors.com just reported that an A9R might be released in June with (if you read Iki's comments) ~70mp.  They have been the source of most A9 rumors for about 3 years, so buckets of salt are warranted.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 02:23:05 pm by Brad P »
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2017, 05:42:14 pm »

Now ads for the GFX are going to appear wherever you go on the web. They're going to wear you down.  :)

Jim

SFW porn :)

Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

jazzy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2017, 11:30:02 am »



For the same amount of pixels, what is the inherent advantage of bigger sensor size?

Do you see the advantage diminishing as sensor technology improve?

Logged

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2017, 12:10:55 pm »


For the same amount of pixels, what is the inherent advantage of bigger sensor size?

Do you see the advantage diminishing as sensor technology improve?

Bigger full well capacity, roughly the same read noise, therefore greater dynamic range. Able to get more out of lenses that have the same resolution as measured in cycles/mm (but lens resolution tends to drop as image circle goes up).

We have already seen the advantage of large sensors diminish as smaller sensors become adequate for a given photographic task. I expect that that will continue.

Jim

jazzy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 38
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2017, 01:19:00 pm »

Bigger full well capacity, roughly the same read noise, therefore greater dynamic range. Able to get more out of lenses that have the same resolution as measured in cycles/mm (but lens resolution tends to drop as image circle goes up).

We have already seen the advantage of large sensors diminish as smaller sensors become adequate for a given photographic task. I expect that that will continue.

Jim


Thank you Jim. Do you think the advance of sensor technology would come to a point where it would make bigger sensor obsolete? Or there will always be a sizeable, inherent advantage of large sensors that justifies its usage in the future?

Logged

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2017, 01:29:26 pm »


Thank you Jim. Do you think the advance of sensor technology would come to a point where it would make bigger sensor obsolete? Or there will always be a sizeable, inherent advantage of large sensors that justifies its usage in the future?

I think it is not a question of absolute quality going to the larger sensor assuming the same technology, but a question of the market size of users willing to pay the freight for a given quality level. We have seen that new technology tends to get introduced for smaller sensors than those at the top of the camera market: CMOS, BSI, conversion gain changing, stacking are examples. That means that the very high end, because of the small market size and the difficulties of doing the fanciest tech at physically large sizes, has a disadvantage.

It may come to the point where the size of the market for 42 by 54 mm sensors gets to be so small that people stop making mass-produced products for that market. We'll have to wait and see.

Jim

Brad P

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 260
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2017, 02:42:56 am »

For the same amount of pixels, what is the inherent advantage of bigger sensor size?

Do you see the advantage diminishing as sensor technology improve?

Listen to Jim Kasson more than me.  I've not yet owned MF (but have owned top-end FF digital backs and good glass over the last ~20 years).  From that and telescope investments, MF's advantage appears obvious.  More light.  Where would light sampling equipment be without that.   

I imagine MF will be around the next 5 years because of that.  But who knows. Competition and development in new cameras and new glass is clearly aimed at FF. That's where all the innovation is right now, especially sensors, autofocus, frame rates, shutters and ease of getting it all close to right.  That's the sweet spot, economically.  But so long as money and desire for more continue, that FF technology appears poised to creap into MF platforms.

BTW Jim, really leaning hard to GFX now (loaded up again). Would love to see the 120mm put through a 10 frame focus stack of anything processed in Zerene, Helicon, Photoshop or whatever, or at least hear your thoughts on that.  Dunno if the focus by wire mechanism and its variability in manual focusing interferes with resolution/processing on that fine a scale -- tend to doubt it from what I've read so far.  Neither M.E. nor anyone else I have found in my research has reported convincingly in what I've found.  It's an important technique to many macro users, among others, that is disadvantaged by MF DoF.  Just a thought. 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 04:52:00 am by Brad P »
Logged

Jack Hogan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 798
    • Hikes -more than strolls- with my dog
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2017, 04:01:35 am »

For the same amount of pixels, what is the inherent advantage of bigger sensor size?

Typically better DR as mentioned; more flexibility in the choice of shutter speed, f-number and DOF in a given situation; and - in practice - often better resolution due to the lower magnification required to produce a displayed photograph, which is more tolerant of imperfections such as camera shake.  It is the latter, often combined with more pixels and custom profiles, which imho produces what many call the MF 'look' or MF 'colors'.

Jack
Logged

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8914
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2017, 04:48:32 am »

Typically better DR as mentioned; more flexibility in the choice of shutter speed, f-number and DOF in a given situation; and - in practice - often better resolution due to the lower magnification required to produce a displayed photograph, which is more tolerant of imperfections such as camera shake.  It is the latter, often combined with more pixels and custom profiles, which imho produces what many call the MF 'look' or MF 'colors'.

Yes, I share Jack's opinion on the differences. The longer focal length used for the same Field-of-View with MF also means larger feature size in the image that's projected on the sensor. That larger magnification factor can also translate to higher MTF, which has a (sometimes) subtle effect on how image detail is rendered from the start. That also provides a more robust starting point for post-processing.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

TonyVentourisPhotography

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 391
    • Unlocking Olympus
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2017, 07:34:11 am »

I always thought of it as the old drawing analogy...as basic as it is...

Try drawing a portrait on a postage stamp.  Then trying drawing the exact same portrait on a postcard.   And then on a large sheet of paper.  And then a large canvas. 

Which one can you get finer detail into?  It's easier to show it the larger you go.  This definitely applied with film.  to my experience, though not as pronounced, definitely holds with digital.  Megapixels helped reduce this a bit...but there is still a difference between 36mm and 54mm. 

Color, dynamic range, etc....sure they might be similar or better on the latest 35... but there is a fine detail difference.  It is what it is...but do those difference matter at the end of the day?  Depends on what you end goal is. 
Logged
Tony
Unlockingolympus.com (ebooks & blog on getting the most from your OMD & Pen)
tonyventourisphotography.com (Commercial Photography)

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2017, 09:51:16 am »

I always thought of it as the old drawing analogy...as basic as it is...

Try drawing a portrait on a postage stamp.  Then trying drawing the exact same portrait on a postcard.   And then on a large sheet of paper.  And then a large canvas. 

Which one can you get finer detail into?  It's easier to show it the larger you go.  This definitely applied with film.  to my experience, though not as pronounced, definitely holds with digital.  Megapixels helped reduce this a bit...but there is still a difference between 36mm and 54mm. 

Color, dynamic range, etc....sure they might be similar or better on the latest 35... but there is a fine detail difference.  It is what it is...but do those difference matter at the end of the day?  Depends on what you end goal is.

I believe that a lot of that is due to the lenses. Most 35mm lenses are very ambitious designs with wide aperture and that ends up impacting their peak performance stopped down. When you use the very best 35mm lenses (Otus, 200mm f2.0,...) you realize that most lenses are just average. This is especially true in wide lenses where the only outstanding one IMHO is the Onus 28mm f1.4.

But yes, all that taken into account, I still see crispier pixels with my H6D-100c compared to the D810 + Otus.



Cheers,
Bernard

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2017, 10:34:55 am »



BTW Jim, really leaning hard to GFX now (loaded up again). Would love to see the 120mm put through a 10 frame focus stack of anything processed in Zerene, Helicon, Photoshop or whatever, or at least hear your thoughts on that.  Dunno if the focus by wire mechanism and its variability in manual focusing interferes with resolution/processing on that fine a scale -- tend to doubt it from what I've read so far.  Neither M.E. nor anyone else I have found in my research has reported convincingly in what I've found.  It's an important technique to many macro users, among others, that is disadvantaged by MF DoF.  Just a thought.

The answer is that you can focus stack with the Fuji 120/4 on a rail just fine, as illustrated by this test I did yesterday at 1:2:

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/fuji-1204-macro-at-12-on-gfx-loca-and-focus-shift/

Jim

Michael Erlewine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1027
    • MacroStop.com
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2017, 10:41:15 am »

The answer is that you can focus stack with the Fuji 120/4 on a rail just fine, as illustrated by this test I did yesterday at 1:2:

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/fuji-1204-macro-at-12-on-gfx-loca-and-focus-shift/

Jim

Focus stacking on a rail is, according to Rik Littlefield (designer of Zerene Stacker) the least friendly to stacking software way to capture stacks. A real question I have had when moving to fly-by-wire systems such as the Hasselblad X1D or the Fuji GFX, both systems which I purchased, is what’s with fly-by-wire focus as relates to stacking-focus? All of the lenses, for example, that are native to the Hasselblad X1D use fly-by-wire technology for focus. The standard reasons for moving to fly-by-wire are that it is less expensive, makes it easier to implement auto-focus, and (supposedly) less and less photographers are bothering with manual focus.

Whatever the reasons, I wanted to know what effect (if any) does fly-by-wire technology have on stacking focus? It worried me because not only have I never used fly-by-wire focusing, but I don’t even use auto-focus... much. So what gives?

Fly-by-focus drives some folks crazy because on lenses that use it, they are no distance scales, etc. listed. And the reason for that is because with fly-by-wire there is no direct mechanical linkage between turning the barrel and a certain distance. While fly-by-wire systems may differ, it is possible to turn off the camera with a particular point in focus, turn it back on, and the focus point may have jumped to some other area of the subject. Again: there is no mechanical linkage as we have in traditional lenses.

Also, long focus throws don’t seem to exist in the fly-by-wire focus systems I have tried, although, of course, you can get a particular point in focus. For those of us into close-up macro focus-stacking, having a decent-to-long focus throw is a distinct advantage. For example, one of the best corrected lenses, the Coastal Optics 60mm APO f/4 lens has a focus throw of around 210-degrees, while the Leica 100mm Elmarit-R f/2.8 APO lens has a focus throw of more like 720-degrees. The net result is that the Coastal Optics lenses really has to be placed on a focus rail to get the kind of gradual focusing that is often required. Not a good design IMO.

With the proper EVF or LiveView screen and magnification, it is possible to focus accurately using one of these fly-by-wire-focus lenses. We all know it is easy to focus a one-shot photo, and I have determined that shooting a “short stack” imaged by focus-stacking also works well enough. But what about the more-standard focus-stacking method of 15-100 layers? How does the fly-by-wire stack up (pun intended) to the more traditional mechanical helicoid method of stacking focus.

To check this, I photographed two stacks of around 20 layers, one using the fly-by-wire and single-stepping it (like we usually do) and a second stack of the same fly-by-wire lens mounted on a focus rail and moved mechanically. I used the Hasselblad X1D with the 90mm f/3.5 lens.

The results showed that both methods produced a usable stack.
Logged
MichaelErlewine.smugmug.com. Founder MacroStop.com, MichaelErlewine.com, YouTube.com/user/merlewine

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2017, 10:49:17 am »

Focus stacking on a rail is, according to Rik Littlefield (designer of Zerene Stacker) the least friendly to stacking software way to capture stacks. A real question I have had when moving to fly-by-wire systems such as the Hasselblad X1D or the Fuji GFX, both systems which I purchased, is what’s with fly-by-wire focus as relates to stacking-focus? All of the lenses, for example, that are native to the Hasselblad X1D use fly-by-wire technology for focus. The standard reasons for moving to fly-by-wire are that it is less expensive, makes it easier to implement auto-focus, and (supposedly) less and less photographers are bothering with manual focus.

Whatever the reasons, I wanted to know what effect (if any) does fly-by-wire technology have on stacking focus? It worried me because not only have I never used fly-by-wire focusing, but I don’t even use auto-focus... much. So what gives?

Fly-by-focus drives some folks crazy because on lenses that use it, they are no distance scales, etc. listed. And the reason for that is because with fly-by-wire there is no direct mechanical linkage between turning the barrel and a certain distance. While fly-by-wire systems may differ, it is possible to turn off the camera with a particular point in focus, turn it back on, and the focus point may have jumped to some other area of the subject. Again: there is no mechanical linkage as we have in traditional lenses.

Also, long focus throws don’t seem to exist in the fly-by-wire focus systems I have tried, although, of course, you can get a particular point in focus. For those of us into close-up macro focus-stacking, having a decent-to-long focus throw is a distinct advantage. For example, one of the best corrected lenses, the Coastal Optics 60mm APO f/4 lens has a focus throw of around 210-degrees, while the Leica 100mm Elmarit-R f/2.8 APO lens has a focus throw of more like 720-degrees. The net result is that the Coastal Optics lenses really has to be placed on a focus rail to get the kind of gradual focusing that is often required. Not a good design IMO.

With the proper EVF or LiveView screen and magnification, it is possible to focus accurately using one of these fly-by-wire-focus lenses. We all know it is easy to focus a one-shot photo, and I have determined that shooting a “short stack” imaged by focus-stacking also works well enough. But what about the more-standard focus-stacking method of 15-100 layers? How does the fly-by-wire stack up (pun intended) to the more traditional mechanical helicoid method of stacking focus.

To check this, I photographed two stacks of around 20 layers, one using the fly-by-wire and single-stepping it (like we usually do) and a second stack of the same fly-by-wire lens mounted on a focus rail and moved mechanically. I used the Hasselblad X1D with the 90mm f/3.5 lens.

The results showed that both methods produced a usable stack.

Thanks for that. I have never tried to stack with lens adjustment with a focus-by-wire lens. I had no idea it was possible. How do you know how much you've changed the focus distance for each step?

Jim

Michael Erlewine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1027
    • MacroStop.com
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2017, 10:53:02 am »

Thanks for that. I have never tried to stack with lens adjustment with a focus-by-wire lens. I had no idea it was possible. How do you know how much you've changed the focus distance for each step?

Jim

In my case, I had to stop, magnify, and look, but I have a general idea that I could just stack away and get something usable. Time will tell. It is with the release of the 120mm Macro XCD that this will be most important for my work. If not, I will probably just sell the system. For myself, I like long-focus throw highly corrected, sharp-wide-open, fast lenses like the Otus series. So, I'm looking for Nikon or Sony to offer something... sometime....soon.
Logged
MichaelErlewine.smugmug.com. Founder MacroStop.com, MichaelErlewine.com, YouTube.com/user/merlewine

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2017, 11:06:49 am »

For myself, I like long-focus throw highly corrected, sharp-wide-open, fast lenses like the Otus series.

Add macro to that list, and do you end up with the null set?

BTW, the CO 60/4 covers the 33x44 format very well, even at infinity. You need to stop down a stop or so at infinity to get the corners even. But it's not all that sharp, and it's not fast, and it's certainly not long-throw.

Jim

algrove

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 262
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2017, 11:27:11 am »

OP

What do you mainly photograph? I maybe missed it.

Do you print? What size printer do you have or intend to get? I often take those things into consideration for my MF system.

I had a PO P45+ an used it with a Hasselblad V for landscape. Then I got a Pentax 645Z. I liked the IQ improvement, but something was missing. Then I got the XF +100MP and I am loving the image quality all while I feel I might be future proofed for some time based on my printing needs-24" for the time being. I just have to hold in the GAS. We will be inundated with temptations for upgrading from now on until we leave this earth.

IMHO, if you want to future proof yourself then go for a 100MP sensor. To my friends, they can see the improvement in the 100MP files even with jpeg images sent to them for 24-30" monitor viewing.

If you do street, then get a 24MP whatever and stick with it until its buffer is too slow for you.
Logged

Michael Erlewine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1027
    • MacroStop.com
Re: FF versus MF
« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2017, 12:49:44 pm »

OP

What do you mainly photograph? I maybe missed it.


I do close-up nature, landscapes... still photography. Here are some links:

http://spiritgrooves.net/e-Books.aspx#Photography

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5xDr8mWUwrzi4bxY978O1DQykUrj-S2I


Logged
MichaelErlewine.smugmug.com. Founder MacroStop.com, MichaelErlewine.com, YouTube.com/user/merlewine
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6   Go Up