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Author Topic: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!  (Read 8241 times)

TonyW

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2017, 02:35:50 pm »

Well, that was a good find.  I did not have "use my setting" checked for the printer (I did have that checked for the display)  in both computers.  I was not aware you were supposed to do that.  In any case, I checked after checking and printed again for both computers.  Nothing changed.  No milkshake at the end of that straw!
I think (not 100%) that the Use my settings tick box would only apply to a printer if you wanted to limit it to use one profile only and then you would need to set it as default.  Whereas with the monitor profile you would want it to be fixed to your most recent or desired profile.

I have had another thought spurred on by the Windows Colour Management dialogue.  Can you check on both systems and see if you have 'Use Windows display calibration' in Colour Management dialogue Advanced tab checked or unchecked.  The checkbox is supposed to enable the gamma correction components of the ICC profile.  I am not going to guess what may happen if the switch is on for one and off for the other  :-\.
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rasworth

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2017, 02:44:09 pm »

It's been a while since I had an HP printer, if I remember right printing from the Advanced section of the printer driver allows more detailed control?  I know it's tiresome, but how about a screen print of the advanced settings?

Richard Southworth
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nirpat89

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2017, 02:52:43 pm »

I have had another thought spurred on by the Windows Colour Management dialogue.  Can you check on both systems and see if you have 'Use Windows display calibration' in Colour Management dialogue Advanced tab checked or unchecked.  The checkbox is supposed to enable the gamma correction components of the ICC profile.  I am not going to guess what may happen if the switch is on for one and off for the other  :-\.

Both computer have it like your top capture, i.e. unchecked and grayed out. 
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nirpat89

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2017, 03:10:07 pm »

It's been a while since I had an HP printer, if I remember right printing from the Advanced section of the printer driver allows more detailed control?  I know it's tiresome, but how about a screen print of the advanced settings?

Not tiresome if I get to fix this problem.  I created some digital negative correction curves based on the old machine.  They will get messed up if I try to use the new one.  That is a lot of repeat work.

Here are the screen-shots...the advanced tab is not so advanced as the name would suggest.  The others are more so.
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rasworth

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2017, 03:28:27 pm »

I get a little worried when I see "automatic" for ink volume, although I would assume the actual setting to be the same from one system to another.

I'm out of bullets, good luck to you, if you figure it out please post the solution.

Richard Southworth
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nirpat89

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2017, 03:47:39 pm »

Yeah, both the same - on automatic.  I will let the good engineers at HP figure that one out.

Thanks a bunch for your indulgence, Richard.  I am out of ideas as well.  I guess I could do a "correction curve" to account for the discrepancy between the 2 computers.
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nirpat89

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2017, 05:12:10 pm »

Both computer have it like your top capture, i.e. unchecked and grayed out.
Checked or unchecked does not make a difference in the print regardless of the computer.  Just another data point.
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nirpat89

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2017, 12:27:51 pm »

An update:

After seeing that the prints from this new Windows PC were printing lighter than those form either Windows 7 or Window 8.1 machines, I wanted to check a second Windows 10 PC to ascertain whether or not there is something unique in the operating system and/or how talks to a printing app in conjunction with the printer driver.  For that I borrowed a random laptop from a friend, a run-of-the-mill Dell laptop for home use with Windows 10 installed.  I wanted to see how that stacked up against the others.  This laptop has no monitor calibration/profiling done whatsoever. 

In order that I can remove any potential conflicts with color spaces, color profiles and the like, I created a completely new un-tagged test target file in Photoshop.  Additionally, I downloaded and installed the Adobe Color Printing Utility (ACPU) on each of the computers so I can print without color management.  Also, installed were the HP B9180 printer drivers appropriate for the installed Windows version (Windows 8.2 and 10 both share the same driver version as per HP recommendation.) 

I then printed the target on each computer side by side, one after another, on the same HP Advanced Photo Glossy paper using ACPU under identical conditions.  Within the Printer Properties dialog, Application Management was specified and a generic gloss paper type selected to instruct the printer to deposit the right (PK) black ink (custom created without any profile attached so there is no chance of some sort of conflict.)

The results are as shown in the attachment.

As can be seen, #1 and #2 from Windows 7 and 8.1 respectively are identical, visually as well as statistically by measurements in Photoshop.  On the other hand #3 and #4 are also identical, but they are both easily discernible as lighter than the other two.

At this point I am not sure what to think.  The consistency of discrepancy is intriguing.   Obviously, there is something going on that is related to Windows 10, if not inherent to it then may be in how it talks to the printer or vice versa.  I don't know what happens when ACPU hands off the file to the printer for it to be printed but somehow the signal from Windows 10 is to put less ink. 

To eliminate the role of the printer in this behavior, I would have to get a different printer (which I don't have and which would be hard to borrow.) 

I have done extensive searches both on internet at large as well as LuLa forums and have come up empty on anyone talking about seeing anything like this.  The question is if anyone can repeat the comparison (at least between an 8 machine and a 10 machine) side by side on a different printer.  Any volunteers out there?

Thanks.

:Niranjan.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 01:51:56 pm by nirpat89 »
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Doug Gray

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2017, 01:43:09 pm »

I've done profiles on Win 7 for a Cannon 9500II and Epson 9800 and have checked the same profiles in Win 10 and the dEs on test charts are unchanged. Perhaps there is something in that specific printer driver version since it differs on Win 8.2 and above.

I do this as a matter of course when updating/grading OSs. Largely out of fear of some hidden conversion happening like the Mac OSs seem to suffer from time to time. But so far I haven't seen any changes.

This brings up a real need. To capture and decode the raw data being sent to printers. That would make it easy to tell if something odd was going on in the OS. I can capture the raw data with Wireshark but decoding it to see what the printer commands are requires information about the native printer protocols.  I haven't been able to find much at all about them outside of some ancient stuff. Perhaps the best place to look would be the open source, Linux, community. I don't know where this stuff is documented but somewhere it must be.
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rasworth

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2017, 02:17:10 pm »

Niranjan,

Grasping at straws, I suggest you open up the "automatic" field in the driver advanced properties ink volume, see if the same choices exist for both driver versions.  It's about the only place left that you haven't checked, that could possibly change the patch "brightness".

Richard Southworth
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TonyW

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2017, 02:39:22 pm »

I've done profiles on Win 7 for a Cannon 9500II and Epson 9800 and have checked the same profiles in Win 10 and the dEs on test charts are unchanged. Perhaps there is something in that specific printer driver version since it differs on Win 8.2 and above....
After grasping what appears to be the last straw from Richard and if the driver choices are the same (it is possible that the driver changes have only been cosmetic i.e. in name only between OS of later vintage 7, 8.* and 10 - I have no proof that this is so!) then I can only believe you are left with one option to describe the behaviour
 
At this time I would be betting on the specific printer driver and the likelihood that HP have abandoned all real support for a printer that was discontinued in 2009.  My suspicion is that someone at HP may have looked at compatibility and found that images printed to an acceptable standard and just left it at that knowing that no further driver development forthcoming if their had been an obvious issue.  Assuming of course that they actually cared to go to this trouble

The changes in density you are observing appear to be relatively small and without comparing side by side or measuring with a device I suspect that they could be missed or ignored particularly in a product no longer supported.  Not suggesting that this is either right or acceptable as it obviously causes you issues that you need to resolve.

Like you I have also searched and would expect by now if it was an OS issue that many more reports would be seen and they would most likely be from all printer manufacturers leading to major driver updates for more recent models (this may have happened of course and I missed it).

It is a shame really as I also have the HP B9180 and have found it to be a good solid machine, mine needing some TLC to see if I can actually getting working again after a long period unused. 
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nirpat89

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2017, 02:53:56 pm »

I've done profiles on Win 7 for a Cannon 9500II and Epson 9800 and have checked the same profiles in Win 10 and the dEs on test charts are unchanged.

I do this as a matter of course when updating/grading OSs. Largely out of fear of some hidden conversion happening like the Mac OSs seem to suffer from time to time. But so far I haven't seen any changes.

This is good to know.  I wouldn't surprised if it is indeed the HP printer that is the culprit here.  The repeatability of this phenomenon may as well point to something simple, if it can be found.

Perhaps there is something in that specific printer driver version since it differs on Win 8.2 and above.

What is throwing a monkey-wrench on this possibility is that the 8.1 and 10 drivers are physically the same (the same .exe file on HP site that is used to install the driver.)  The file for the 7 is different.  So if the driver was doing it, it should do to the print from 8.1 machine too - or so one would think.  Additionally, I did do a comparison of a 10 machine where I rolled back the driver to that for the 7 and found no change.  I did not try this with these new set of conditions.  Might give a try again and see what happens.

Thanks for the insight.

:Niranjan.
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nirpat89

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2017, 03:05:13 pm »

Grasping at straws, I suggest you open up the "automatic" field in the driver advanced properties ink volume, see if the same choices exist for both driver versions.  It's about the only place left that you haven't checked, that could possibly change the patch "brightness".

OK,  Richard.  After pointing out this item by you (that I had been overlooking as inconsequential,) I did play with it a little.  The problem is this:  If I select manual it takes me to the place I can change the ink from heavy to light with a couple of steps on each side.   As is, it is at the center.  If I leave it at the center and close the window to force manual control, the damn thing goes back to Auto.  Now I could choose a lighter or heavier option if I want to put it on manual instead of the Auto.  In that case, I would have to do the same thing on both computers otherwise the comparison may not be accurate.  I will do that and report.  It's only ink...
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nirpat89

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2017, 03:38:23 pm »

After grasping what appears to be the last straw from Richard and if the driver choices are the same (it is possible that the driver changes have only been cosmetic i.e. in name only between OS of later vintage 7, 8.* and 10 - I have no proof that this is so!) then I can only believe you are left with one option to describe the behaviour
 
At this time I would be betting on the specific printer driver and the likelihood that HP have abandoned all real support for a printer that was discontinued in 2009.  My suspicion is that someone at HP may have looked at compatibility and found that images printed to an acceptable standard and just left it at that knowing that no further driver development forthcoming if their had been an obvious issue.  Assuming of course that they actually cared to go to this trouble

The changes in density you are observing appear to be relatively small and without comparing side by side or measuring with a device I suspect that they could be missed or ignored particularly in a product no longer supported.  Not suggesting that this is either right or acceptable as it obviously causes you issues that you need to resolve.

Like you I have also searched and would expect by now if it was an OS issue that many more reports would be seen and they would most likely be from all printer manufacturers leading to major driver updates for more recent models (this may have happened of course and I missed it).

It is a shame really as I also have the HP B9180 and have found it to be a good solid machine, mine needing some TLC to see if I can actually getting working again after a long period unused.

Agree with everything.  HP might have dropped the ball.  I love this printer as well, after putting up with all these years learning to deal with every little idiosyncrasies and figuring way around them.  I have been thinking about what I will want to buy next as I intend to be able do 17" (or larger) prints at some point in the future.  I see the Canon and Epson both have some good points but there are a lot of issues as well.  Anecdotal chatter is very confusing.   I leave the B9180 turned off for 3-4 months at a time and when I come back and turn it on, it's up and running without having to do any kind of maintenance cycle.   I am not sure any of the other two makes can boast of such a thing.  The ink costs have come down as people are selling their left-over stash on eBay for a third of the price.  I would consider one of the bigger brothers of B9180, like the z3100 but it may be too big for me and I would be afraid about precisely something like this down the line when a new OS comes out and they don't give an updated driver.  I know there some big fans out here that do printing for a living.

Looks like in the short term, not wanting go change all my old photos to darken them, I might have to keep the old machine around just to do the printing - until Microsoft decides to dump on it too.

Thanks.

:Niranjan.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 03:49:04 pm by nirpat89 »
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rasworth

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2017, 04:14:17 pm »

Niranjan,

Another choice in the printer driver that can affect ink volume is the selected media.  I know you are choosing the same paper in each driver, but HP may have changed the ink volume for "HP Advanced Photo Paper, Glossy" between drivers, it's a popular paper and they may have tweaked the formulation seeking a marginal improvement.  You could choose another paper, maybe some generic type if such exists, and try again.

I doubt that the ink volume setting on "automatic" would be a factor, given your experience, but I guess the only way to be sure is to experiment as you described.

Richard Southworth
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nirpat89

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2017, 04:56:48 pm »

Richard:

The thing is HP driver does not know I am using "HP Adv Photo Paper" as I have defined a generic paper called appropriately "Generic Gloss" and assign it paper type of "Photo" which in HP parlance means "glossy" so use the PK black (as opposed to "Photo Rag" means to use MK ink.)  There is a Custom Paper facility where you can define the type of surface and optionally attach an icc profile which I leave blank.  Then you choose "Application Management" in combination with the "Generic Gloss" paper and the printer should not be controlling anything.  I have used this for a long time ever since there was a confusion about "double profiling."  I use the same for other gloss papers like the Ilford Fiber Silk or the Canson Baryta which I use the most for my glossy photo printing.  I defined a "Generic Rag" in the similar manner when I want to print on something like Canson Photographique Rag with Photoshop Managed Colors in the Photoshop Print Settings with appropriate Canson provided icc profile selected.

I hope I making sense....

:Niranjan.

P.S. Even though lately I have standardized my tests on the HP Adv paper, my earlier tests did include the Ilford and Canson papers and the same trend was observed. 
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rasworth

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2017, 05:17:29 pm »

One of your earlier posts had a screenshot of the printer driver where Paper Type was "HP Advanced Photo Paper, Glossy" - I'm assuming that may be communicated to the printer in some form to influence the ink mixture.

Richard Southworth
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nirpat89

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2017, 05:46:30 pm »

One of your earlier posts had a screenshot of the printer driver where Paper Type was "HP Advanced Photo Paper, Glossy" - I'm assuming that may be communicated to the printer in some form to influence the ink mixture.

Aha...you got me there.  I took the screen shot of the first thing that came up when you open the window (that and any time you change something else it might decide to change itself to HP Adv Photo Glossy - I think that was a subliminal way for HP to push people to use their paper.)  I didn't show the actual parameters I normally use or I used for these tests.  I think I was trying to show what utility I was using and just took the screen shot without paying attention to what was there.  Actual one would look like the attached.

:Niranjan.


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rasworth

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2017, 05:58:22 pm »

Ok, I understand.  However, I would assume that "Generic Gloss" vs. "Generic Rag" would affect ink volume other than just pk vs mk.  I don't believe you're in danger of "double profiling" for choosing a specific media, I've done it on every paper I've profiled.  Usually a third party paper manufacturer will specify a printer manufacturer paper choice for their canned profiles, and I typically use the same for my custom profiles.  Of course, one must be consistent in the paper type between profile targets and profiled printing.

Richard Southworth
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rasworth

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Re: New Computer Woes....Prints Coming out Lighter. Need Help!
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2017, 06:08:10 pm »

In fact, put yourself in the place of a printer manufacturer developing a modified driver for a new/later version OS.  I would bet they are more careful about testing consistency of print quality on their own paper types than on the "generic" choices.

Richard Southworth
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