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Author Topic: Less expensive proof paper for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta  (Read 2874 times)

pearlstreet

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Less expensive proof paper for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta
« on: April 13, 2017, 01:41:17 pm »

The title says it all. What do you use/recommend?

Sharon
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Less expensive proof paper for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2017, 01:49:00 pm »

Yup - it's costly stuff; but if you have a properly configured soft-proofing set up on your display you should not need any proofing paper, unless it is to show proofs to customers. In the latter case, not sure what to suggest because nothing close that I know of is cheap.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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pearlstreet

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Re: Less expensive proof paper for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2017, 01:56:58 pm »

Okay, thanks Mark.
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MHMG

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Re: Less expensive proof paper for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2017, 07:57:40 pm »

Epson proofing paper white semimatte, available in 13x19 cut sheet, also rolls. EPPWSM is an RC photo type paper at less than half the price of HNPHRagBaryta.  EPPWSM has media whitepoint properties along with color gamut and maximum printable black properties very very close to HN photo Rag Baryta even though its semimatte surface is less glossy than HN Photo Rag baryta. To get best proof match to final you need to use a device-link profile, or alternatively you can use a simple two step conversion approach:  1) convert the image from the image source file color space to your Photo Rag Baryta profile using the rendering intent you want to use on the final print. Then convert that image using absolute colorimetric rendering to the EPPWSM ICC profile. Now print the proof print. This will simulate the color and tone of the HN photo Rag baryta very nicely, albeit not with exactly the same surface texture and gloss.  If you need to make further image edits, rinse and repeat. If it's what  you want, go back and convert the image source file using just the HN Photo Rag Baryta profile and your initial chosen rendering intent. Make your final print. Done.

That said, I tend to agree with Mark S. With a good ICC profile for HN PHoto Rag Baryta and a good soft proofing workflow using a calibrated monitor, your first print should be pretty darn close to final, maybe even a keeper, but not far off. And you can economize on paper by printing perhaps half-size rather than final print size. Practice and color management experience will get you there.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 08:05:32 pm by MHMG »
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pearlstreet

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Re: Less expensive proof paper for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2017, 01:14:54 am »

Thank you!
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Less expensive proof paper for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2017, 06:27:48 am »

Thank you!

The Epson PPWSM is not just a proofing paper. Within the RC papers category it is a special one with its warmer white, high gamut and little OBA content.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 11:24:52 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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stockjock

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Re: Less expensive proof paper for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2017, 12:31:11 am »

The Epson PPWSM is not just a proofing paper. Within the RC papers category it is a special one with its warmer white, high gamut and little OBA content.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

Hi Ernst,

Based on your comments I bought a roll of the Epson Proofing White Semimatte Inkjet Paper.  I have only run a few prints through it but I have to say I agree that it seems to be a very special paper at the price point.  Color reproduction, gamut, and gloss differential all seem very good.  I love the level of gloss that reminds me of a good magazine.  I have been looking for a high quality, low cost paper that will let me print photo books with better results and a lower price to something like Blurb and this seems to fit the bill.  In the US you can buy a 17"x100' roll for just $65.95 including delivery.  It isn't going to replace Canson Platine for my portfolio prints but it is definitely going to find a place in my workflow.  Thanks for pointing it out.  The lack of OBA's is a positive.  I wonder if there has been any testing on its archival qualities?

Paul
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Less expensive proof paper for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2017, 03:30:17 am »

Hi Ernst,

Based on your comments I bought a roll of the Epson Proofing White Semimatte Inkjet Paper.  I have only run a few prints through it but I have to say I agree that it seems to be a very special paper at the price point.  Color reproduction, gamut, and gloss differential all seem very good.  I love the level of gloss that reminds me of a good magazine.  I have been looking for a high quality, low cost paper that will let me print photo books with better results and a lower price to something like Blurb and this seems to fit the bill.  In the US you can buy a 17"x100' roll for just $65.95 including delivery.  It isn't going to replace Canson Platine for my portfolio prints but it is definitely going to find a place in my workflow.  Thanks for pointing it out.  The lack of OBA's is a positive.  I wonder if there has been any testing on its archival qualities?

Paul

Paul,

Two test results at Aardenburg-Imaging.com. ID 309 and 310. One with the Epson K3 pigment inks (with the weaker yellow than more recent pigment inks have) and one with the Canon Chromalife 100+ dye ink. The paper white did not shift in 80 megalux hours exposure, still at 100 I* Color.

Archival is a vague term. At least it shows good paper white longevity and pigment ink shows good longevity too on it. It has polyethylene barriers in the paper construction which some see as a risk and I give the benefit of doubt as there has not been good mechanical and degradation testing done on any of the modern composite papers, whether resin coated or the ones with polyethylene barriers. We coin both as RC papers but I was corrected some years ago by a Sihl paper guru that there is a distinction between the two.

I still contribute to that confusion. In SpectrumViz the RC paper map contains the PE barrier types, I split the papers with hot water etc to see what the layers contain and put the resin types in the Ordinary paper map, quality is lower anyway. I keep the RC name for the PE papers as it is more generally used for that kind of papers.

BTW, Epson advertised the high gamut of several pigment printers and measured target prints on the PPWSM for that claim, a paper that normally is not used outside prepress proofing shops. A high gamut makes it easier to get similar printing results in inkjet as possible in other printing technologies like offset printing. A job done with a device link profile or the more elaborate two profiles route. An inkjet paper that does not overlap the gamut of the offset print can never simulate the last in color. So that is the reason why this paper has a high gamut. There is a long discussion on proofing papers whether they should contain OBAs or not as many offset papers contain OBAs as well. The choices of spectrometer models and modes reflect that discussion. I came across this paper several years ago as I was checking which RC papers did not contain OBAs, the PPWSM is one of just a few and has the highest white point and a pretty regular spectral reflection compared to the other ones. Its weight is nice. According to Mark there is a bit of OBA in the base as I recall it correctly, the spectral plot drops below 400NM which could indicate that but I do not see the blue emission of fluorescence. I thought it was more the result of TiO2 as a whitening agent, maybe both contribute to that drop. The one thing that users might object too is the kind of egg white skin gloss, I have some difficulty with that too but you seem to like it.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 04:13:30 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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stockjock

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Re: Less expensive proof paper for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2017, 05:08:33 am »

BTW, Epson advertised the high gamut of several pigment printers and measured target prints on the PPWSM for that claim, a paper that normally is not used outside prepress proofing shops. A high gamut makes it easier to get similar printing results in inkjet as possible in other printing technologies like offset printing. A job done with a device link profile or the more elaborate two profiles route. An inkjet paper that does not overlap the gamut of the offset print can never simulate the last in color. So that is the reason why this paper has a high gamut. There is a long discussion on proofing papers whether they should contain OBAs or not as many offset papers contain OBAs as well. The choices of spectrometer models and modes reflect that discussion. I came across this paper several years ago as I was checking which RC papers did not contain OBAs, the PPWSM is one of just a few and has the highest white point and a pretty regular spectral reflection compared to the other ones. Its weight is nice. According to Mark there is a bit of OBA in the base as I recall it correctly, the spectral plot drops below 400NM which could indicate that but I do not see the blue emission of fluorescence. I thought it was more the result of TiO2 as a whitening agent, maybe both contribute to that drop. The one thing that users might object too is the kind of egg white skin gloss, I have some difficulty with that too but you seem to like it.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots

I'm not sure what you mean by the "egg white skin gloss". I've noticed a lot a glossy and semi-glossy papers have almost a fog or veil over the image when it is looked at from the side that doesn't occur on papers like the Canson Platine or the various Baryta papers.  Is that what you mean?  The PPWSM paper has that to a slight extent but it is acceptable to me.  I've also noticed that there is a small amount of  metamerism (?) i.e. the colors shift a little looked at in different light or different light angles.  But those seem to be really minor side affects especially compared with some of the issues with other equally inexpensive papers I've tried.  Since my last post I have printed about 20 images on the PPSWSM and I have been happy with how all of them have reproduced.  It seems ideal for my purpose of printing photo books without having to resort to Blurb or Shutterfly.  I'm also happy that the prints from the roll paper don't exhibit much curl to start with.  Hopefully, they flatten out fully with some time. So far this continues to seem like a very nice paper for the price.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Less expensive proof paper for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2017, 06:33:28 am »

I'm not sure what you mean by the "egg white skin gloss". I've noticed a lot a glossy and semi-glossy papers have almost a fog or veil over the image when it is looked at from the side that doesn't occur on papers like the Canson Platine or the various Baryta papers.  Is that what you mean?  The PPWSM paper has that to a slight extent but it is acceptable to me.  I've also noticed that there is a small amount of  metamerism (?) i.e. the colors shift a little looked at in different light or different light angles.  But those seem to be really minor side affects especially compared with some of the issues with other equally inexpensive papers I've tried.  Since my last post I have printed about 20 images on the PPSWSM and I have been happy with how all of them have reproduced.  It seems ideal for my purpose of printing photo books without having to resort to Blurb or Shutterfly.  I'm also happy that the prints from the roll paper don't exhibit much curl to start with.  Hopefully, they flatten out fully with some time. So far this continues to seem like a very nice paper for the price.

That kind of veil, yes. BTW that veil was annoying on the HP Baryta paper no longer available, you could polish that off on that paper and then varnish or wax it. However that was not possible when the gloss enhancer was already applied, good that the paper is no longer available.

Yes, without gloss enhancer as I have on the HP Z3200 you will see gloss differentiation and worse bronzing. I should have mentioned that but forgot. Varnish or a wax like Renaissance will help somewhat if no gloss enhancer is there. In my experience the paper lends itself good to warm color images; flowers, the basket with strawberries. Black and white portraits in Agfa Portriga style, though the last was less glossy. Pencil sketch reproductions. Strong blues and greens too. The paper flattens in time, that can be shortened by reversed rolling the prints on a core for 24 hours. Mounting on DiBond goes well too.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots


« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 03:58:41 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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