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Author Topic: The Climate Change Hoax  (Read 116340 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2017, 01:29:56 pm »

Meanwhile, Ray, still waiting for an answer to my question:

Who started the climate change "hoax" and why?


Why do you doubt my original post?  I said Al Gore and now you're asking Ray.  Gore was so famous in this area he won the Nobel Peace Prize.  "The Nobel Peace Prize 2007 was awarded jointly to Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and Albert Arnold (Al) Gore Jr. "for their efforts to build up and disseminate greater knowledge about man-made climate change, and to lay the foundations for the measures that are needed to counteract such change" http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/2007/


Of course these are the same Swedes who awarded the same Nobel Peace Prize to our President, Drone's Obama. 

LesPalenik

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2017, 02:10:14 pm »

Somebody had to do it. That was a well deserved prize.
Here in Canada, our hero is David Suzuki. He will leave a greater legacy than many prime ministers did.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 02:16:40 pm by LesPalenik »
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2017, 03:27:10 pm »

Somebody had to do it. That was a well deserved prize.
Here in Canada, our hero is David Suzuki. He will leave a greater legacy than many prime ministers did.
At least your Suzuki isn't a hypocrite like our Al Gore.  While Gore continues to burn thousands of gallons of jet fuel traveling around as a big shot, Suzuki tries to limit his carbon footprint.

"Suzuki himself laments that in travelling constantly to spread his message of climate responsibility, he has ended up "over his [carbon] limit by hundreds of tonnes." He has stopped vacationing overseas and taken to "clustering" his speaking engagements together to reduce his carbon footprint. He would prefer, he says, to appear solely by video conference.[24]" from Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Suzuki#Carbon_footprint

LesPalenik

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2017, 04:04:17 pm »

Thank you Alan,

but Gore is really not that bad. But he should have stuck to politics. Things might have turned out differently if he had been the Democratic candidate instead of Clinton.
 
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Peter McLennan

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2017, 04:10:57 pm »

Why do you doubt my original post?  I said Al Gore

Lets put it this way:  I disagree with your assertion that Gore invented it. Gore did join and promote the "hoax" band wagon, but it was well underway before he climbed aboard.
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RSL

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2017, 04:13:49 pm »

"Suzuki himself laments that in travelling constantly to spread his message of climate responsibility, he has ended up "over his [carbon] limit by hundreds of tonnes."

Oh Heavens! The poor fellow. Over his carbon limit? He should at least be jailed.

I predict that two generations from now people will be terribly worried again about a new ice age. As Nancy Pelosi said about the certainty that Trump wouldn't become president: "You can take it to the bank."
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2017, 04:33:15 pm »

Lets put it this way:  I disagree with your assertion that Gore invented it. Gore did join and promote the "hoax" band wagon, but it was well underway before he climbed aboard.
My recollection was that Gore popularized it.  It seemed to become very popular after his book and he did win the Nobel prize.  So he was making a large impact.  Unfortunately, his promotion about global warming also pitched the carbon credit industry where he made millions.  So it raised doubts about whether it was legitimate or just another con job to make money. 

Today, many still stand to make millions:  clean energy producers like solar and wind mills, electric car manufacturers, climatologists who get grants to pay for research, nature videographers and environmental producers of documentaries for TV and cable, authors, etc.  Additionally, politicians use it to separate people into groups to win votes.  All these things sow doubt with people who have been burned before by charlatans and snake oil salesmen.  So even if there is truth to much of the science, people just don't believe it because the purveyors seem dishonest and greedy.  Add to this that warming is only bad.  That there are no positive results.  Well, nothing is all one way.  When you get someone saying something is 100% negative, people's instincts start tingling.  You feel someone is putting their thumb on the scale and you're getting ripped off.

PeterAit

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2017, 04:33:44 pm »

Why do you doubt my original post?


Because it's full of utter, foolish, and demonstrable nonsense?

But to answer the question, the climate change "hoax" was started by hundreds, then thousands, of objective scientists who conducted careful studies of atmospheric temperature, CO2 levels, ocean temperature and pH, glacial melting, coral reef patterns, Arctic and Antarctic ice shrinkage, cloud changes, sea level rise, permafrost melt, and so on and so forth.

But of course it must be a "hoax," just like the infamous "earth rotates around the sun" hoax.
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LesPalenik

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #68 on: March 25, 2017, 04:37:36 pm »

At least your Suzuki isn't a hypocrite like our Al Gore.  While Gore continues to burn thousands of gallons of jet fuel traveling around as a big shot, Suzuki tries to limit his carbon footprint.

Well, let's keep it in a perspective.
Compared with a few thousands of gallons generated by those two, imagine how many megatons of carbon were created by all the flying in the 2016 US election. Nothing good came out of that project.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 05:30:17 pm by LesPalenik »
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jeremyrh

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #69 on: March 25, 2017, 05:10:57 pm »


But to answer the question, the climate change "hoax" was started by hundreds, then thousands, of objective scientists who conducted careful studies of atmospheric temperature, CO2 levels, ocean temperature and pH, glacial melting, coral reef patterns, Arctic and Antarctic ice shrinkage, cloud changes, sea level rise, permafrost melt, and so on and so forth.

Well, they had to do something after faking the moon landing.
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Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #70 on: March 25, 2017, 09:22:10 pm »


Because it's full of utter, foolish, and demonstrable nonsense?

But to answer the question, the climate change "hoax" was started by hundreds, then thousands, of objective scientists who conducted careful studies of atmospheric temperature, CO2 levels, ocean temperature and pH, glacial melting, coral reef patterns, Arctic and Antarctic ice shrinkage, cloud changes, sea level rise, permafrost melt, and so on and so forth.

But of course it must be a "hoax," just like the infamous "earth rotates around the sun" hoax.

Then why not demonstrate the nonsense of the opposing views of the skeptics, Peter. We're all ears. The reason why I'm skeptical about the claimed dangerous role that CO2 emissions might have for our future climate, is because of my own critical sense of the biased manner and false certainty with which AGW issues are presented by the media and through interviews with key scientists on the issue.

I wasn't always skeptical of the dangers of human induced climate change. I used to assume that the dangers of CO2 emissions must be real, because I have a great respect for science and was impressed by certain interviews of famous scientists, such as James Lovelock who was involved in developing the concept of the Gaia Hypothesis.

However, over time, as I began to get more interested in the subject of climate change and listened to more interviews of key scientists on the subject, I began to wonder why certain key facts about a specific aspect of the subject under discussion were not mentioned during the interviews.

To give just one example out of many, if a scientists is giving a talk on ocean acidification and makes the very valid point that CO2 dissolves in the sea water to produce carbonic acid, and if we raise the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere through our emissions from fossil fuel, more CO2 will dissolve in the water and the sea will gradually become more acidic, then that is naturally an interesting point for any intelligent person interested in the subject of climate change.

However, if one listens to a 1/2 hour talk on ocean acidification, and the expert on the subject doesn't even mention what the current pH level of the oceans actually is and how much it is estimated to have changed since the industrial revolution, one begins to wonder how useful or informative or educational such an interview really is.

Many people enjoy gardening and have a basic understanding that the pH of their soil can affect the health and growth of their plants. Most plants prefer a slightly acidic soil but a few prefer a slightly alkaline soil. A pH of 7 is neutral. A pH above 7 is alkaline and a pH below 7 is acidic.
So what is the average pH of the oceans? Are the oceans generally alkaline, acidic or neutral? I had to do a search on the internet to find out. This was several years ago.

Some time later, during a conversation with an old friend who didn't have much background in science but did do some gardening and understood that adding lime to the soil made it more alkaline, the conversation turned to a recent interview that my friend had heard about ocean acidification, which he thought was quite alarming.
Out of curiosity, I asked my friend what he thought is the current, average pH of the ocean surfaces. He looked a bit puzzled, and after a pause said he guessed they are probably acidic. I wondered how many more people who listened to that interview of an expert climatologist also would have assumed that the oceans are already acidic and getting worse.

A check on the internet will reveal that the average pH of the ocean surfaces is considered to be about 8.1 and is estimated to have fallen by just 0.1 (from a pH of 8.2) during the past couple of hundred years since the industrial revolution.

However, it also seems to be the case that the pH of the oceans varies considerably depending on the location, the depth, the season of the year, the upwelling and flow of ocean currents, and so on. There's a continual change and flux of pH due to natural events which makes it virtually impossible to isolate and quantify the contribution of human induced CO2 levels to any changes in ocean pH.

There is also the contradiction in the statements that more CO2 is being dissolved into the oceans because of increased CO2 levels whilst simultaneously making the statement that increased CO2 levels is causing global warming. Warm water tends to release CO2. A cooler water more easily dissolves CO2 than a warm water.

The following article provides a detailed study of the situation, for those interested.
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/OceanCarbon/

Here are a few relevant quotes:

"If there is one place in the world where you can measure changes in the ocean carbon sink with atmospheric measurements, it is over the Southern Ocean,” says Le Quéré. “It is the place where you have the least contaminated air, so to speak.”
When Le Quéré plugged atmospheric measurements from the Southern Ocean between 1981 and 2004 into her model, she was startled by the result—something far more interesting than the Antarctic Circumpolar Wave. “The Southern Ocean carbon sink has not changed at all in 25 years. That’s unexpected because carbon dioxide is increasing so fast in the atmosphere that you would expect the sink to increase as well,” says Le Quéré. But it hadn’t. Instead, the Southern Ocean held steady, while atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations climbed. Why?

I think it’s possible that the Southern Ocean sink is slowing down,” says Sarmiento, “Le Quéré did a super job of bringing in all kinds of constraints on the model, but all of them have huge uncertainties. I’m still holding off.” Feely agrees. “In this case, modelers are leaping ahead of the observationalists. What we as oceanographers want to do is make sure that there is a sufficient amount of oceanographic data to substantiate that. You need 30 years of data before you can say anything, and that’s an incredible feat in itself.”


In summary, my view is that the nature of the 'hoax' about the dangers of rising CO2 levels relate to the non-scientific presentation of uncertainty as certainty.


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jeremyrh

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #71 on: March 26, 2017, 05:40:00 am »


Many people enjoy gardening and have a basic understanding that the pH of their soil can affect the health and growth of their plants.

Well gosh - if only those folks at MIT and elsewhere had done some gardening maybe they wouldn't have made this gigantic mistake, eh? Luckily Ray is here to set them straight. Really, this was entertaining for a while, but I'm done wrestling the pig.
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Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #72 on: March 26, 2017, 09:41:07 am »

Well gosh - if only those folks at MIT and elsewhere had done some gardening maybe they wouldn't have made this gigantic mistake, eh? Luckily Ray is here to set them straight. Really, this was entertaining for a while, but I'm done wrestling the pig.

You are completely missing the point I'm making. I'm not criticising the MIT for not being aware of the pH of the oceans, I'm criticising any climate research organisation or representative who communicates with the public, if they are dishonest in providing a one-sided, biased perspective of the situation which in the final analysis is likely to be far more dangerous for the future of humanity than any risk that increasing CO2 levels might have.

Our future as a species depends on accurately assessing the situation in accordance with the best scientific practices, and not treating the population at large as dumb asses who can't think for themselves.

Disseminating information about climate change using methods of propaganda will only lead to endless confusion, as it already seems to have done.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 09:50:34 am by Ray »
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Peter McLennan

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #73 on: March 26, 2017, 11:40:36 am »

Ray: You're still not answering my very simple question:  Who first called global warming a hoax?  And why?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 12:52:03 pm by Peter McLennan »
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PeterAit

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #74 on: March 26, 2017, 12:10:42 pm »

Then why not demonstrate the nonsense of the opposing views of the skeptics, Peter.

Because it has been convincingly and factually demonstrated thousands of times by people more qualified than me.
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Alan Klein

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2017, 02:01:08 pm »

Let's assume for a moment that warming is real.  What do the comparative studies show how much and where money should be spent?  How much change will occur depending on the plan we implement?  Should the money be spent only on alternative energy production or should some be spent and implementing construction to offset the effects of global warming?  How much?  Where does the money come from?  What effect in dollar terms will these programs have?  What changes can be expected over what period of time if only America institutes a plan?  What should America do if other who promised to make changes fail to do so?  Should we continue with our plan if the changes are then minimalized?

Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2017, 09:37:04 pm »

Ray: You're still not answering my very simple question:  Who first called global warming a hoax?  And why?

Peter,
You've been asking two questions, 'Who first started the hoax?', and 'Who first called it a hoax?'. How could anyone know for sure. The first person to call global warming a hoax might have been a brilliant scientist with an IQ of 200 who, after reviewing all the literature on the subject in his apartment in New York or London, turned to his wife and said, "Darling, I'm beginning to think this entire global warming scare is really a hoax". But his comment was never reported in the media.  ;)

From a political perspective, Margaret Thatcher appears to be among the first to use her political influence to help set up the IPCC and provide government funding to U.K. institutes to study the issue of human-induced climate change. She was apparently influenced by Sir Crispin Tickell who was the UK's representative in the UN and had written a book in the 1970's warning that the world was heading towards a cooling period, but who later became an ardent believer that the world was doing the opposite and warming instead.

I think it's fair to presume that Margaret Thatcher had no intention of creating a hoax and genuinely believed there were environmental issues that needed addressing.
The nature of the hoax is something which gradually evolved as politicians and others with their own agendas, jumped on the bandwagon. However, Margaret Thatcher, towards the end of her life, apparently became a skeptic on the issue, if you accept the accuracy of the following report.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/7823477/Was-Margaret-Thatcher-the-first-climate-sceptic.html

"It is not widely appreciated, however, that there was a dramatic twist to her story. In 2003, towards the end of her last book, Statecraft, in a passage headed "Hot Air and Global Warming", she issued what amounts to an almost complete recantation of her earlier views.

She voiced precisely the fundamental doubts about the warming scare that have since become familiar to us. Pouring scorn on the "doomsters", she questioned the main scientific assumptions used to drive the scare, from the conviction that the chief force shaping world climate is CO2, rather than natural factors such as solar activity, to exaggerated claims about rising sea levels.

She mocked Al Gore and the futility of "costly and economically damaging" schemes to reduce CO2 emissions. She cited the 2.5C rise in temperatures during the Medieval Warm Period as having had almost entirely beneficial effects. She pointed out that the dangers of a world getting colder are far worse than those of a CO2-enriched world growing warmer. She recognised how distortions of the science had been used to mask an anti-capitalist, Left-wing political agenda which posed a serious threat to the progress and prosperity of mankind.

In other words, long before it became fashionable, Lady Thatcher was converted to the view of those who, on both scientific and political grounds, are profoundly sceptical of the climate change ideology. Alas, what she set in train earlier continues to exercise its baleful influence to this day. But the fact that she became one of the first and most prominent of "climate sceptics" has been almost entirely buried from view."


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Ray

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2017, 09:50:27 pm »

Because it has been convincingly and factually demonstrated thousands of times by people more qualified than me.

Then you should have no trouble providing just a few specific examples of some of the claims by skeptics that have been demonstrated as nonsense, as I have tried to do, demonstrating the nonsense of the alarmists by quoting the following link to research conducted by qualified oceanographers and published by NASA.
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/OceanCarbon/

I'll quote some more from the text, in case you can't be bothered to read the article.

"The ocean does not take up carbon uniformly. It breathes, inhaling and exhaling carbon dioxide. In addition to the wind-driven currents that gently stir the center of ocean basins (the waters that are most limited by stratification), the ocean’s natural, large-scale circulation drags deep water to the surface here and there. Having collected carbon over hundreds of years, this deep upwelling water vents carbon dioxide to the atmosphere like smoke escaping through a chimney. The stronger upwelling brought by the cold phase of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation apparently enhanced the size of the chimney and let more carbon escape to the atmosphere."

“We discovered that natural processes play such an important role that the signals they generate can be as large as or larger than the anthropogenic signal,”


That final sentence in bold typifies the general attitude of the AGW skeptic. The typical skeptic does not claim that increases in CO2 has no affect at all on climate, (how could anyone know that?) but that with regard to the net effect, after taking into consideration the very complex interactions of natural causes of climate change, and all the positive and negative feed-back situations attributed to CO2 increases, there can be no scientific certainty about the degree to which the current increases in CO2 have affected global climate.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #78 on: March 27, 2017, 12:13:58 am »


In other words, long before it became fashionable, Lady Thatcher was converted to the view of those who, on both scientific and political grounds, are profoundly sceptical of the climate change ideology. Alas, what she set in train earlier continues to exercise its baleful influence to this day. But the fact that she became one of the first and most prominent of "climate sceptics" has been almost entirely buried from view."[/i]

Surely someone (or several someones) must have convinced her to have this flip flop. That a politician should be responsible for leading the charge to dispute the word of science seems preposterous. We see it again today, unfortunately.

Also, it's interesting that she became a denier for economic, rather than scientific reasons.

One has to wonder why this knowledge has been almost entirely buried from view.


Your NASA item, while also interesting, does little except illustrate the complexity of the natural world.  Anything mankind does to affect it usually ends in heartache for the planet and the perpetrators.  The evidence shows that we tinker at our peril.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Climate Change Hoax
« Reply #79 on: March 27, 2017, 06:36:46 am »

Your NASA item, while also interesting, does little except illustrate the complexity of the natural world.  Anything mankind does to affect it usually ends in heartache for the planet and the perpetrators.  The evidence shows that we tinker at our peril.

Indeed, the interconnections of ecosystems and the geographical differences make it difficult to separate the specific detailed contributions over a relatively short term. However, the sum of it all is pretty obvious. Coral bleaching and other changes in marine habitats are not caused by improved conditions, and what man adds to the equation only helps to make matters worse. One needs to also consider that one of nature's more important future sources of food, comes from the oceans ...

Also, the attempt earlier in this thread at downplaying the ocean acidification numbers by pointing out the small change in pH, totally ignores that the pH scale is logarithmic, and is neutral at 7.0 . A small decrease of the pH is effectively a large (double digit percentage) increase in H+ which has severe effects on many chemical reactions that affect marine life, and also it all contributes to changing weather patterns.

But I agree, although the NASA article was an interesting read, there's little else to be gained from wrestling the pigs. I do worry about the effects of the current USA plans for defunding research, on reliable data collection.

Cheers,
Bart
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