Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: 100MP or 4x5 Film?  (Read 21480 times)

Bo_Dez

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 331
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2017, 06:52:36 am »

I really do not think that this is the case any stronger than using a particular transparency film may make certain colours appear more saturated and the variance of E6 processing (hopefully subtle but still there).  It is my belief that this is a matter of post processing and camera profiles with digital rather than an inherent issue.  Further with a little work I see no reason why a particular look cannot be achieved with your editing tools of choice and saved as a new profile or preset.

Nothing to do with saturation or colour profiles and post production has little bearing on what digital removes. I'm not sure if you saw the picture, but most of the red berries in that photo are completely removed by nature of the bayer array. This is what digital does, it can not by nature replicate colour accurately as film.

Logged

Bo_Dez

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 331
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2017, 07:15:36 am »

I should also mention that with 4x5, while you don't have the latest lens, what's available are quite nice, and in fact you have access to 100+ years lens like the Petzval or the Cooke triplets, which have *characters*, or even (my favorite) modern classics like the Cooke PS945.

So true. That Cooke is one is a beautiful lens. Don't want to generalise but personally I don't like modern lenses much, at least by default, much for the same reasons I don't like digital. The tonality and sharpness can be quite jarring, false, and personally speaking, quite ugly in comparison and no amount of pixel peeping is relevant or revealing of much more than feats of engineering. Something that I don't really care much for or feel it contributes to a photo in any meaningful way.
Logged

TonyW

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 643
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2017, 07:18:02 am »

Nothing to do with saturation or colour profiles and post production has little bearing on what digital removes. I'm not sure if you saw the picture, but most of the red berries in that photo are completely removed by nature of the bayer array. This is what digital does, it can not by nature replicate colour accurately as film.
On the contrary it has everything to do with profiles and how you set your post processing.  Digital remove nothing that a particular film type and processing will not. 

I did see the image you included, perhaps it was a poor example but with a 5 sec post edit (attached) I seem to have more red berries than you have on film.  Of course your shots are at different angles and the red berries in the film shot at front by rocks are hidden in the digital by the second shot.

Logged

Bo_Dez

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 331
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2017, 07:30:10 am »

Um...no the digital shot has very little berries and the film shot has a lot.
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2017, 07:37:12 am »

It's not just resolution. Film just has better colour, especially when considering resolution and fine detail.

A bayer array makes colour disappear in some cases as seen in this film/digital comparison.

Yes, I'd say the Raw converter is doing the disappearing; with film the manufacturer and lab does the heavy lifting for colors, with digital you need to become your own expert -or hire one.

Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

Bo_Dez

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 331
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2017, 07:41:58 am »

Yes, I'd say the Raw converter is doing the disappearing; with film the manufacturer and lab does the heavy lifting for colors, with digital you need to become your own expert -or hire one.

Edmund

Why do you assume I am not a digital expert?
Logged

TonyW

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 643
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2017, 07:44:53 am »

Um...no the digital shot has very little berries and the film shot has a lot.
Ok so I misunderstood which was which.  But don't you see that the angle has changed between the two shots and berries are being obscured by leaves?  The red berries cannot just disappear selectively.

I stand by my earlier statements - this is processing in raw to reveal what you want to reveal and conceal whatever. 
Logged

Bo_Dez

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 331
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2017, 07:56:54 am »

Ok so I misunderstood which was which.  But don't you see that the angle has changed between the two shots and berries are being obscured by leaves?  The red berries cannot just disappear selectively.

I stand by my earlier statements - this is processing in raw to reveal what you want to reveal and conceal whatever.

I'm not talking about the small amount of berries from camera angle. The whole bush has far less berries.

Yes the red berries just disappear selectively.

Sure, feel free to stand by that.
Logged

TonyW

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 643
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2017, 08:19:05 am »

.....Yes the red berries just disappear selectively.

;D :'( Well if you seriously believe that and expect others to do the same there is really nothing else I want to add other than you have shown no proof of concept and your earlier statement ("Why do you assume I am not a digital expert?") seems to suggest that you think of yourself as a digital expert. 

Should this be the case then perhaps you would be kind enough to point me to some published learned links from a recognised digital authority that show objective proof that this phenomena occurs.
Logged

Endeavour

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 393
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2017, 10:38:47 am »

If I had the choice, I would use 100mp back.

as much as I 'love' the process of 4x5, the process of developing C41 is getting more and more difficult (obtaining the chemicals to process) but there is still something more appealing to my eyes with film than digital on large landscape exposures

but I cant afford a 100mp system (back, body, lens, insurance etc) so its academic for me anyway
Logged

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2017, 11:17:27 am »

Yes, I'd say the Raw converter is doing the disappearing; with film the manufacturer and lab does the heavy lifting for colors, with digital you need to become your own expert -or hire one.

When I was in the color science biz, if I had time to kill at SPIE and other conferences, I'd sometimes watch papers or attend workshops on color film and paper design. I came away hugely impressed by the artfulness of the engineers doing the work, and the immense difficulties that they faced given the stacking of the emulsions, the dyes they had to work with, the way the developers and couplers worked. In the case of printing, they had to stack two highly compromised processes on top of each other, using each one to compensate for the departures from fidelity of the other. After a few of these sessions, I stopped whining about the lack of accuracy of film compared to digital capture, and became flatly amazed that color film worked at all. By the way, it was clear that the film system designers were not aiming for accurate color at all; pleasing was the target.

Compared to film, designing an accurate digital color system is a piece of cake.

With respect to who does the work, I think that chemical color printing was harder than digital editing. Dealing with color shifts when dodging and burning. Making contrast reduction or sharpening masks. Pin registration. Yuk.

Jim

Endeavour

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 393
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2017, 11:24:25 am »

...

With respect to who does the work, I think that chemical color printing was harder than digital editing. Dealing with color shifts when dodging and burning. Making contrast reduction or sharpening masks. Pin registration. Yuk.

Jim

that's one area I kept well away from.

After developing, I switch to a digital workflow for the rest of the pipeline. Develop, then scan. I really couldn't be bothered with englarging, editing & printing analogue.
Logged

TonyW

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 643
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2017, 12:04:28 pm »

....After a few of these sessions, I stopped whining about the lack of accuracy of film compared to digital capture, and became flatly amazed that color film worked at all. By the way, it was clear that the film system designers were not aiming for accurate color at all; pleasing was the target.

Compared to film, designing an accurate digital color system is a piece of cake.

With respect to who does the work, I think that chemical color printing was harder than digital editing. Dealing with color shifts when dodging and burning. Making contrast reduction or sharpening masks. Pin registration. Yuk.

Jim
;D Absolutely agree, having to know at least some of the science behind film and paper processing due to being employed to set up processing labs both professional and large D&P along with QC/QA systems it was amazing to think of the brain power (and sweat and tears that went into formulating the whole process towards an image) and the magic that made it all work - usually very well. 

And yes my opinion is that chemical colour printing much harder than digital editing and printing and the chemical process so limiting in many ways when comparing.  In short we have never had it so good
Logged

razrblck

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 482
  • Chill
    • Instagram
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2017, 12:59:53 pm »

The sample picture shown has both noise (CCD readout noise?) and JPEG compression artifacts. Considering that some cameras also employ noise reduction techniques that are applied to the raw output of the sensor even when NR is turned off (astrophotographers should know), I wouldn't be surprised if the berries disappeared. Software along the way might've thought that those single red pixels were artifacts and not part of the image, so it removed most of them. The CFA has nothing to do with this.

By the way, it was clear that the film system designers were not aiming for accurate color at all; pleasing was the target.

This is exactly why we have so many different films, each own with its unique look (that many try to emulate in digital). I wouldn't say film has better color than digital. It has pleasing colors (provided you use the right film for your subject), but you can make digital look like anything you want.

I really like Portra for portraits during sunset and Superia for cloudy days. I would never switch them around because they would most likely produce unpleasant hues.
Logged
Instagram (updated often)

Richard Man

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 137
    • Richard Man Photography
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2017, 02:25:58 pm »

As for chemical processing, I have a Jobo CPP2 and I use 5L Flexicolor Kodak kits (with separate bleach and fix even) and cost only about $1 sheet. Indeed, once you get used to 4x5, even a Leica M9 seems a bit lacking, so now I use a couple Hassy for my "small" kits. I always scan and use my Epson 7900 for printing. Kodak Portra colors oh-so-good:

Logged
// richard
[url=http://richardmanphoto.c

Endeavour

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 393
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2017, 02:28:54 pm »

As for chemical processing, I have a Jobo CPP2 and I use 5L Flexicolor Kodak kits (with separate bleach and fix even) and cost only about $1 sheet.....[/img]

I have a CPP2 with lift also, but getting hold of the flexicolor kits (replenishers) is tricky unless you are able to walk into a supplier like B&H in person

At least with digital, once you have the kit you are good to go and not reliant on supplies
Logged

David Watson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 480
    • David Watson
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2017, 03:37:56 pm »

I gave up trying to be a good or even average image processor with film in a darkroom many years ago.  Digital technology has been a boon for my photography enabling me to do what I couldn't do without the expensive time consuming help of a lab.  So I guess the answer might be as follows:  If you are a slow and careful worker with your camera and in the darkroom medium format film may be an enjoyable way to go.  If you are happy to use an outside lab to do everything and like the retro feel/look of the whole film thing that may also be a way to go.

However I have to say that as an owner of a 100mp digital system (Hasselblad) I cannot really believe that a 5x4 or even whole plate camera system would produce reliably solid images unless in the hands of a highly experienced and talented expert.

Digital is so forgiving - on a still life shoot I may take several hundred shots to get what I want and then a few hours later I can look at the finished print.  Cannot easily do that with film.

The only trouble is that the entry cost is high but once that is paid the cost of ownership (film, processing, screw-ups) is much lower. 

Finally the combination of digital backs with live view on a traditional large format or 5x4 camera system is a hard thing to beat.

Logged
David Watson ARPS

Richard Man

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 137
    • Richard Man Photography
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2017, 03:59:27 pm »

I have a CPP2 with lift also, but getting hold of the flexicolor kits (replenishers) is tricky unless you are able to walk into a supplier like B&H in person


I buy them from Unique Photo in NJ. I am located in California.
Logged
// richard
[url=http://richardmanphoto.c

Endeavour

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 393
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2017, 04:02:30 pm »

I buy them from Unique Photo in NJ. I am located in California.

unfortunately for me, I'm in Canada
Unique Photo wanted $13 for the chemical, and $80-$150 for the shipping :/
Logged

Richard Man

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 137
    • Richard Man Photography
Re: 100MP or 4x5 Film?
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2017, 04:51:34 pm »

unfortunately for me, I'm in Canada
Unique Photo wanted $13 for the chemical, and $80-$150 for the shipping :/

Well OK, but the situation in  US is not as dire as having to walk into B&H.
Logged
// richard
[url=http://richardmanphoto.c
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up