Trump II

[Alan Klein]

Pure unmitigated bullshit...the NSA intercepted phonecalls of known foreign agents either talk to or about Trupm or his campaign. Those names of Americans scooped up had to be unmasked because of the nature of the intercepts indicated it was a matter of national security which is why Rice found out that Flynn was talking to the Russians and why Obama warned Trump about Flynn.

But nobody intercepted any Trump calls (unless he was talking to Russians-ya think he was?) so maybe you should learn about what actually happened and stop making stupid claims like Trump does...just sayin'

So bottom line, Obama had transcripts of Trump's staff phone calls and possibly Trump's too.  In normal circumstances, if there were suspicions of security issues, the FBI would have investigated and kept track, not the Oval Office or Susan Rice.  She was an advisor to President Obama on international security matters.  She was not a police or espionage investigator.    The Oval office stayed in the loop looking at over a hundred transcripts because of political reasons, not just the Flynn stuff. 

This is what makes the NSA dangerous because it can be used by politicians, regardless of the party, to gather information against their political enemies.  It's one thing when NSA is listening in to German Chancellor Merkel's conversations.  Another when it involves domestic political opponents.  That's what Trump was complaining about. 

The Democrats haven't stopped squealing about the Russians "listening in" to Hillary and her campaign.  They refrain is they lost the election because of it. But, when it comes to domestic "wire tapping" against Republican politicians, it's all acceptable. 

[Schewe]

So bottom line, Obama had transcripts of Trump's staff phone calls and possibly Trump's too.

Again no...what part of foreign agent's phones being intercepted don't you understand? The NSA don't intercept American's phones-only forgeign agents phones are intercepted. So an American's conversation would inly be caught it they were talking to a foreign agent. You don't mind intercepting foriegn agents do you? So if you are worried about phone intercepts don't talk to foreign agents...

Get it yet? The NSaa intercepted foreing agent's phone calls...any Americans caught up were incidental.

[Alan Klein]

The drums of war are beating over North Korea and its nukes, and we're debating stupid things like high heels and getting side-tracked away from the really critical issues of our times. 
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/03/politics/trump-north-korea-nuclear/index.html 

[Alan Klein]

Again no...what part of foreign agent's phones being intercepted don't you understand? The NSA don't intercept American's phones-only forgeign agents phones are intercepted. So an American's conversation would inly be caught it they were talking to a foreign agent. You don't mind intercepting foriegn agents do you? So if you are worried about phone intercepts don't talk to foreign agents...

Get it yet? The NSaa intercepted foreing agent's phone calls...any Americans caught up were incidental.

But the transcripts were being reviewed by the Oval Office.  Why?  The FBI should have handled it.  The reason is that Obama was looking for stuff to damage the Republicans.  Frankly, none of "wire tapping" would have come out if Hillary was elected President as Obama had expected. All the records would have been buried or classified Top Secret and stored next to the Lost Ark.  

[Schewe]

But the transcripts were being reviewed by the Oval Office.  Why?

Because of national security implications...and in the case of Flynn specifically, his calls with the Russian ambassador occurred after the election and it WAS the Former DoJ chief Sally Yates who told the Trump admin that Flynn's phone calls were intercepted and that Flynn was lying. That's what lead to him getting fired...

Look back at the timing of Trump's idiotic claims of Obama's "wiretaps"...it occurred AFTER Yates informed the Trump admin and after Sessions recused himself from any Russian investigations.

There was no political implications, only national security implications...get it now?

[Chris Kern]

This is what makes the NSA dangerous because it can be used by politicians, regardless of the party, to gather information against their political enemies.

You obviously have never worked with the U.S. intelligence community, and clearly know nothing about how it functions, if you really believe this bizarre, unsubstantiated claim.

Jeff's response that what you said is "[p]ure unmitigated bullshit" strikes me as, if anything, rather restrained.  If I recall correctly, in a previous post in this thread he also quoted Daniel Patrick Moynihan's famous epigram: "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."

[Alan Klein]

Because of national security implications...and in the case of Flynn specifically, his calls with the Russian ambassador occurred after the election and it WAS the Former DoJ chief Sally Yates who told the Trump admin that Flynn's phone calls were intercepted and that Flynn was lying. That's what lead to him getting fired...

Look back at the timing of Trump's idiotic claims of Obama's "wiretaps"...it occurred AFTER Yates informed the Trump admin and after Sessions recused himself from any Russian investigations.

There was no political implications, only national security implications...get it now?

Trump found about the surveillance after the election.    But the surveillance had been going on for at least 6 months before the election.  Had Trump not been elected as Obama figured before the election, Hillary would have hidden it next to the Lost Ark and the public would never have known about it.

[Alan Klein]

You obviously have never worked with the U.S. intelligence community, and clearly know nothing about how it functions, if you really believe this bizarre, unsubstantiated claim.

Jeff's response that what you said is "[p]ure unmitigated bullshit" strikes me as, if anything, rather restrained.  If I recall correctly, in a previous post in this thread he also quoted Daniel Patrick Moynihan's famous epigram: "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."

I worked 4 years in the USAF with a Top Secret Crypto clearance and handled TS material and communications.  What's your background?

The idea that Presidents don't use their executive power to damage opponents is naïve.  Nixon had his "enemies list".  Six presidents for decades feared  and re-appointed J. Edgar Hoover, Director of the FBI, because he kept secret diaries collected by the FBI on all politicians or prospective politicians to influence the powers that be.  Some president used Hoover to their own advantage.  Obama used the IRS to damage and deflect conservative non-profits to diminish their influence to help him be re-elected.  How can anyone know what the CIA or NSA is up too?

[texshooter]

The drums of war are beating over North Korea and its nukes, and we're debating stupid things like high heels and getting side-tracked away from the really critical issues of our times. 
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/03/politics/trump-north-korea-nuclear/index.html

In more serious news, social justice warriors demand removal of "sexist" leg lamp from community park.


http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445225/christmas-story-leg-lamp-statue-lakeland-florida-sexist

[texshooter]

Susan Rice advises Trump to let North Korea have thermonuclear ICBMs. Not a big deal.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/aug/10/susan-rices-ridiculous-north-korea-recommendation-/

[James Clark]

Susan Rice advises Trump to let North Korea have thermonuclear ICBMs. Not a big deal.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/aug/10/susan-rices-ridiculous-north-korea-recommendation-/

It's still a better option than reigniting war on the Korean peninsula. 

[texshooter]

Sadly, the American people will have no say in the matter.  And Congress will pass the buck as usual.

[Alan Klein]

Sadly, the American people will have no say in the matter.  And Congress will pass the buck as usual.

Yes,  Congress is required to get involved.   Making war is to serious to be left up to the president alone.

[Alan Klein]

 It's interesting you hear nothing from Conservative Senator Rand,  a Constitutionalist, and others like him.   It's like Obamacare.   When pulling the trigger actually counts,  they're all gun shy.

[Schewe]

I worked 4 years in the USAF with a Top Secret Crypto clearance and handled TS material and communications.

Wow...was that before or after the invention of the cell phone and internet? Cause ya see, the NSA is capable of some pretty high tech surveillance but not at the behest of the President. The President doesn't really have that power...steps were taken after Nixon to make to very difficult for surveillance to be done for political purposes vs national security purposes–which you seem to conflate...

Trump found about the surveillance after the election.    But the surveillance had been going on for at least 6 months before the election.

What surveillance? Flynn was picked up as incidental collection of a foreign agent intercept...the NSA wasn't eavesdropping on Flynn, they were eavesdropping on Sergey Kislyak who happened to talk to Flynn and lied about what was talked about–the full story of which we still don't know.

So, what other surveillance? Are you talking about the FISA warrant to surveil Carter Page? That was the FBI not the NSA who surveilled Page after it was found he was dealing with actual known Russian FSB agents who were trying to recruit him. The FBI FISA warrant went back to July 2016 as it relates to the Russian collusion investigation but indications are Page had been under surveillance since 2014.

So, who else was under surveillance and by whom?

The whole reason that the FBI was alerted to the Russian interference in the election was because of foreign intelligence agencies waring their American counterparts that people who had connections to Trump were having meetings and conversations with Russian agents. We don't know exactly who but the assumption is the both British and German intelligence agencies while engaging in surveillance of Russians were finding the Russians either talking to or talking about people with Trump connections. I also wouldn't be surprised that Israeli's Mossad might have caught wind of things as well. But we don't know this because none to the foreign or domestic agencies are talking about it.

So, who else? Perhaps Paul Manafort because he was already under investigation for money laundering using Cyprus banks that are known entities used by both the Russian government and the Russian mob.

Who else? Donny Jr? Ivanka? Jared Kushner? Kushner might be a target because of his family's involvement in sketchy real estate deals. Trump himself?

All of that is crap...

Some Americans got caught up with foreign surveillance...Susan Rice as  National Security Advisor to Obama did her job and asked for the unmasking of certain names because of national security implications. Pretty sure that's how Flynn got caught and that was AFTER the election dooode.

Carter Page? Well, he met with Russian agents who tried to recruit him and the FBI got a FISA warrant to put him under surveillance. Electronic surveillance? Prolly both his phones and internet/email. Could Trump have been incidentally caught up with Carter Page surveillance? I dunno...maybe...

But here's the thing you have to ask yourself...if Obama did what you claim he did and had Trump and his campaign under surveillance, do you believe the entire conspiracy to help Hillary and hurt Trump was so inept that Trump won inspire of the conspiracy?

Or is this all just a pipe dream to explain away Trump's paranoid delusions and to claim that all of this post election bullshyte is simply a feeble attempt by the democrats to deny legitimacy of Trump's presidency? I meant, that's what Trump says...but even Trump's own interagency agencies say Russia interfered and the DOJ and the FBI/ say there's no evidence of Trump being eavesdropped on.

You keep spewing forth unfounded allegations and irrational claims that are delusional. And whether or not you had Top Secret clearance decades ago bears little on this argument.

If you have sources to back up your claim that the surveillance had been going on for at least 6 months before the election. Prove it...otherwise I say

[Schewe]

While Senator John McCain clearly has little respect for the Big Orange Dummy, you simply can't consider McCain as anything than a true American hero willing to put his life on the line for America. As such, it would behoove America and both Congress and the President to read and consider John's opinion in the WaPo...

John McCain: It’s time Congress returns to regular order

.....Congress will return from recess next week facing continued gridlock as we lurch from one self-created crisis to another. We are proving inadequate not only to our most difficult problems but also to routine duties. Our national political campaigns never stop. We seem convinced that majorities exist to impose their will with few concessions and that minorities exist to prevent the party in power from doing anything important.

That’s not how we were meant to govern. Our entire system of government — with its checks and balances, its bicameral Congress, its protections of the rights of the minority — was designed for compromise. It seldom works smoothly or speedily. It was never expected to.

It requires pragmatic problem-solving from even the most passionate partisans. It relies on compromise between opposing sides to protect the interests we share. We can fight like hell for our ideas to prevail. But we have to respect each other or at least respect the fact that we need each other.

That has never been truer than today, when Congress must govern with a president who has no experience of public office, is often poorly informed and can be impulsive in his speech and conduct.

We must respect his authority and constitutional responsibilities. We must, where we can, cooperate with him. But we are not his subordinates. We don’t answer to him. We answer to the American people. We must be diligent in discharging our responsibility to serve as a check on his power. And we should value our identity as members of Congress more than our partisan affiliation.....

[Schewe]

Barack Obama sent Donald Trump a letter before leaving office. Here's what he said

On Sunday, CNN exclusively reported on the contents of a handwritten letter former president Barack Obama addressed to Donald Trump prior to leaving the Oval Office.

In a tradition carried out by at least three prior presidents, CNN reports, Obama wrote a letter to Trump, reflecting on his eight years as president and detailing four points of advice.

Obama congratulated the newly elected President Trump on his new job and reminded him that "millions have placed their hopes" in him.

Trump himself called the note a "beautiful letter" during a press conference two days after receiving it. Yet the note was just over twice as long as those written by three previous presidents' letters, according to an analysis by CNBC. (We counted! See this doc)

"This is a unique office, without a clear blueprint for success, so I don't know that any advice from me will be particularly helpful," Obama wrote. "Still, let me offer a few reflections from the past 8 years."

Here are Obama's four points of advice to Trump ahead of his new job.

Build more ladders of success

Sustain the international order

Leave the 'instruments of our democracy at least as strong as we found them'

Take time for friends and family

Here is the full text of his letter to Trump:

"Dear Mr. President -

Congratulations on a remarkable run. Millions have placed their hopes in you, and all of us, regardless of party, should hope for expanded prosperity and security during your tenure.

This is a unique office, without a clear blueprint for success, so I don't know that any advice from me will be particularly helpful. Still, let me offer a few reflections from the past 8 years.

First, we've both been blessed, in different ways, with great good fortune. Not everyone is so lucky. It's up to us to do everything we can (to) build more ladders of success for every child and family that's willing to work hard.

Second, American leadership in this world really is indispensable. It's up to us, through action and example, to sustain the international order that's expanded steadily since the end of the Cold War, and upon which our own wealth and safety depend.

Third, we are just temporary occupants of this office. That makes us guardians of those democratic institutions and traditions -- like rule of law, separation of powers, equal protection and civil liberties -- that our forebears fought and bled for. Regardless of the push and pull of daily politics, it's up to us to leave those instruments of our democracy at least as strong as we found them.

And finally, take time, in the rush of events and responsibilities, for friends and family. They'll get you through the inevitable rough patches.

Michelle and I wish you and Melania the very best as you embark on this great adventure, and know that we stand ready to help in any ways which we can.

Good luck and Godspeed,

BO"

It sure would be useful if Trump solicited the help and advice of former presidents on how to become a better president because at this juncture, I think Trump is destined to go down as the worst US president in the history of our country...so far the only think Trump has been good at is redefining what a Malignant Narcissist actually is...heck at this point I miss George Bush (either of them). At least they were honorable men.

[texshooter]

It's still a better option than reigniting war on the Korean peninsula.

If Kim builds hundreds of thermonuclear MIRVs (which he will) and decides to annex South Korea (which he might), will you then say:  'Letting South Korea fall is a better option than letting America take a nuclear hit.' Or are you willing to sacrifice Los Angeles to save Seoul?

Perhaps it's time for South Korea and Japan to join the nuclear arms race.  And let's not leave out Iran and Saudi Arabia.

More the merrier says political scientist Kenneth Waltz. Let's hope he's right.

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-18838577/debate-should-iran-get-the-bomb


Trump's only options are the following. I predict he'll do #1.

1)  Slap draconian sanctions on North Korea and its trade partners, which will slow Kim's nuclear ambitions just long enough for Trump to pass the unresolved problem to his successor.

2)  Provoke North Korea into launching a limited attack on our naval vessels or army installations. Shooting down Kim's missiles might be the trigger.

3)  Stage a false flag. That worked in the Vietnam and Gulf Wars.

4)  Help South Korea and Japan  build tactical nukes and/or create a regional nuclear NATO alliance and missile defense shield in the Pacific. China would not like that.

5)  Bribe Kim (been there, done that).

6)  Wage preemptive war. (Congress won't approve of such a move for South Korea's sake, who ironically feels more threatened by the United States than by Kim Un.)

7)  Bitch and bluster and then learn to live with a nuclear North Korea just like we did with Pakistan. (This option is inevitable.)

8.  Pressure China to pressure North Korea. (Yeah right sure uh-huh.   Good luck with that one.)

9)  Send Dennis Rodman.

10) Send Dennis Rodman in Vera Wang.

[LesPalenik]

or accept the Swiss offer to mediate. Doris Leuthard  looks much better than Dennis Rodman.

Neutral Switzerland is prepared to act as mediator to help resolve the North Korea crisis, including by hosting ministerial talks, Swiss President Doris Leuthard said Monday.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/switzerland-mediate-north-korea-crisis-1.4274409

[Alan Klein]

...So, what other surveillance? ...Some Americans got caught up with foreign surveillance...Susan Rice as  National Security Advisor to Obama did her job and asked for the unmasking of certain names because of national security implications. ...But here's the thing you have to ask yourself...if Obama did what you claim he did and had Trump and his campaign under surveillance, do you believe the entire conspiracy to help Hillary and hurt Trump was so inept that Trump won inspire of the conspiracy?...

The fact is over 100 intercepts of people connected to Trump were transcribed and given to Obama through his Adviser Susan Rice.  You complain, and rightfully so, that Trump is getting too involved in the investigation of Russian "collusion" and interference by Mueller.  Yet, you don't see Obama doing something similar by reading those intercepts during an election season.   The fact that the NSA originated the intercepts is beside the point.  The point is the FBI is the government's investigatory organization.  Not the President and Susan Rice.  Their looking at them smacks of politics.  Obama should have let the FBI handle it then just as Trump should let Mueller investigate the Russians now.


Regarding nothing coming of the intercepts just proves the there was nothing there to begin with.  All the arguments about collusion are just BS.  Although the Trump organization phone calls with the Russians were monitored, there was no collusion otherwise it would have come out before the election to damage Trump.