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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 918366 times)

mecrox

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5880 on: August 31, 2017, 03:30:32 pm »

IMHO a good summary of the rebuilding challenges after Harvey.

How Trump's immigration crackdown could slow flood-hit Houston's efforts to rebuild
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-storm-harvey-immigration-idUSKCN1BA2M0

QUOTE   August 30, 2017 / 10:22 PM  "HOUSTON/SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - In the coming weeks, as Houston turns its attention to rebuilding areas devastated by Tropical Storm Harvey, people like Jay De Leon are likely to play an outsized role – if they stay around.

De Leon, 47, owns a small construction business in Houston, and he and his 10 employees do exactly the kind of demolition and refurbishing the city will need.  But like a large number of construction workers in Texas, De Leon and most of his workers live in the United States illegally, and that could make things complicated.

The Pew Research Center estimated last year that 28 percent of Texas’s construction workforce is undocumented, while other studies have put the number as high as 50 percent. Construction employed 23 percent of working undocumented adults in Texas at the end of 2014, higher than any other sector, according to the Migration Policy Institute.

However, undocumented immigrants are growing increasingly nervous in Texas because of an immigration crackdown by the Trump administration that has cast a wide net.

In addition, undocumented immigrants were worried about a new Texas law that had been scheduled to take effect on Friday, which would have barred cities in the state from embracing so-called sanctuary policies that offer safe harbor to illegal immigrants, and would have allowed  local police to inquire about a person’s immigration status.

That law was temporarily enjoined by a federal judge late Wednesday, but the state’s governor has vowed to appeal. "


Cheers,
Bart

The devastation in Texas will take many years to make good. One hopes it might also provoke a rethink of the wisdom of allowing huge urban sprawls on floodplains and in areas prone to devastating blows from storms, etc. Maybe it will even provoke a rebuild plan on higher ground many tens of miles inland. Huge amounts of relatively inexpensive labour will be required any which way, so the reality of that will bite regardless of what anyone thinks at the top. It just depends on how much hypocrisy and turning a blind eye folks are prepared to tolerate. Some kind of sensible, humane temporary migrant come work permit plan is the obvious answer but just for that reason it's probably not the one which will be adopted, at least by the current crowd. If you spend your time claiming folks from south of the border are dirty rapists et al then it's mighty hard to sit down and working something out with them when it turns out you actually need to.
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scyth

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5881 on: August 31, 2017, 03:58:58 pm »

If you spend your time claiming folks from south of the border are dirty rapists
they are illegal aliens and they break the law... so for as long as alt-left will be playing idiots by calling them "undocumented immigrants" alt-right will be in their right to call them "dirty rapists" ... lie vs lie  ;D
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pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5882 on: August 31, 2017, 04:43:21 pm »

they are illegal aliens
Reminds me of a story at Immigration. Officer tells people approaching: "If you're a US citizen take the right lane, if you're an alien take the left lane". This guy walks up to him and asks "I'm not a US citizen, but I am from earth, which line should I take?"  ;)
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mecrox

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5883 on: August 31, 2017, 04:58:00 pm »

they are illegal aliens and they break the law... so for as long as alt-left will be playing idiots by calling them "undocumented immigrants" alt-right will be in their right to call them "dirty rapists" ... lie vs lie  ;D

I'm afraid that makes no sense on any level. The whole point is that reality shows it all up for what it is, i.e. playing politics. If there is a need for lots of inexpensive labour, as there probably will be in the aftermath of Harvey, it's a straightforward practical matter: what you gonna do?

Over here there's been much crowing about fewer folks coming over to harvest crops and pick fruits, fewer of the "Poles" which some here now use as a general term of abuse for anyone from Eastern European they don't like. It will soon turn to howling when the food rots in the fields and shop prices double. That's the problem with bigotry: turns out it doesn't feed you, clothe you, build your house or repair your roads. Sad!
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 05:07:06 pm by mecrox »
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scyth

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5884 on: August 31, 2017, 05:06:10 pm »

I'm afraid that makes no sense on any level. The whole point is that reality shows it all up for what it is, i.e. playing politics. If there is a need for lots of inexpensive labour, as there probably will be in the aftermath of Harvey, it's a straightforward practical matter: what you gonna do?

see few posts above... forced labor of detained illegal aliens and bracero program shall do... but alt-left more interested to sabotage the country
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5885 on: August 31, 2017, 06:27:20 pm »

...If there is a need for lots of inexpensive labour...

Who said it has to be inexpensive?

I have a friend who had its own small-scale construction company... couldn't find work after the Great Recession, had to resort to driving a school bus. Plenty of his friends too. If America has something in large quantities, it is construction workers. Just pay them decently.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5886 on: August 31, 2017, 06:46:05 pm »

These two photographs say more about the "Presidentialness" of the first family than a zillion pages of this thread ever could. 
Black stiletto heels on Air Force One, and USA and FLOTUS ball caps?  Really?

clicking on the first image several times allows you to view both of them sequentially

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/29/us/trump-texas-harvey.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=thumb&module=span-abc-region&region=span-abc-region&WT.nav=span-abc-region

Meet the author of the stiletto diatribe:


mecrox

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5887 on: August 31, 2017, 06:49:32 pm »

Who said it has to be inexpensive?

I have a friend who had its own small-scale construction company... couldn't find work after the Great Recession, had to resort to driving a school bus. Plenty of his friends too. If America has something in large quantities, it is construction workers. Just pay them decently.

I completely agree with you. However, that may require a fairly big political reset in which corporations are discouraged from pocketing the money from cheap labour but dumping the social costs on the taxpayer. That in turn means dismantling their networks of influence and lobbying some of which are very powerful (agriculture here, for example). Similar situation here albeit on a smaller scale and it hasn't been cracked yet.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5888 on: August 31, 2017, 07:05:50 pm »

... a fairly big political reset in which corporations are discouraged from pocketing the money from cheap labour but dumping the social costs on the taxpayer...

Hence the proposal to fine big corporations $1 million for every instance of illegal labor.

texshooter

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5889 on: August 31, 2017, 07:47:36 pm »


If you fine them for hiring illegals, more  U.S. corporations will flee to overseas slave markets. Even Trump cannot stop the globalist bankers.  We are either headed for Gattaca or Mad Max.  Either way we're screwed.

Self-sufficiency and a smaller population are the only long-term answer.  We don't need cheaper labor.  We need better robots.

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texshooter

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5890 on: August 31, 2017, 08:18:11 pm »

Meet the author of the stiletto diatribe:

The Devil wears Nada.   PRAY NOT.

That bag lady lectures Melania about taste?



She has much to learn from first ladies, et al.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 01:22:27 am by texshooter »
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5891 on: August 31, 2017, 08:51:30 pm »

Meet the author of the stiletto diatribe:

Yah, except that I posted that topic here long before it appeared anywhere in social media.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5892 on: August 31, 2017, 09:20:06 pm »

The Devil wears Nada.   PRAY NOT.
That biddy lectures Melania about taste?

Maybe she wears stilettos only with her evening dress.
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texshooter

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5893 on: August 31, 2017, 09:54:01 pm »

Speaking of fashion faux pas, the Democratic Party should spruce up their summer wardrobe.


« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 11:23:23 pm by texshooter »
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mecrox

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5894 on: September 01, 2017, 04:07:18 am »

Hence the proposal to fine big corporations $1 million for every instance of illegal labor.

A finger in the dam. The reason is that on its own such a proposal will be easily undermined - lobbying, loopholes, corruption in the form of massive political donations to the lawmakers who then respond with tax breaks, etc. What's needed is a new social settlement between government and people which involves putting overmighty corporations back in their box. Take skills and apprenticeship schemes, for example - I think these are vital for the future of any good country. But no corporation is going to bother participating when they can import the same skills for less via migrant labour and dump the social costs on the taxpayer. At the same time, a vicious circle is created in which a country with not enough skills in the workforce continues to be de-skilled by corporations importing cheaper labour from elsewhere. Corporations need to be tied into and obliged to take some responsibility for the countries in which they operate. The past half century has allowed them to float free and become supra-national with malign results.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 08:27:48 am by mecrox »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5895 on: September 01, 2017, 09:29:03 am »

There seem to be a lot of assumptions being made. 1, people are assuming that there is a problem and 2, the cause is illegal immigration.

Maybe what's going on is that the problem is a labour shortage and that the various governance authorities (government at various levels, corporate, etc.) have failed to address it. If the economy can absorb 11 to 13 million illegal workers, maybe it's because the USA needs them and that the "market" is attempting to solve the shortage problem through illegal immigration. Now this is obviously not a good way to address the issue, but while companies wait for the various "leaders" to take action, there is work that needs doing, so they get on with it.

Aside from emotional resentment of "foreigners" coupled with perceived native unemployment, is there really a problem that needs to be fixed here and will stopping illegal immigrant flow fix it? Especially considering that immigration from Mexico has been decreasing for years and in fact many are returning to Mexico because of improved economic conditions there. Are people lathering themselves into a frenzy worrying about something that is going away anyway?

Imo, it's probably healthy to be a little skeptical of measures that attack low-hanging fruit? For years, they arrested local drug dealers as if the illegal drug situation was a supply problem and not a demand problem. Did that work?
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scyth

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5896 on: September 01, 2017, 10:36:46 am »

Who said it has to be inexpensive?

it has to be (fat yankees need a stick too) - but it has to be within some legal framework and w/o any obligations to them in terms of any soc.sec or other benefits and anchors/pathways in terms residency, citizenship for workers & their children... use it and discard it ...
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mecrox

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5897 on: September 01, 2017, 12:32:51 pm »

There seem to be a lot of assumptions being made. 1, people are assuming that there is a problem and 2, the cause is illegal immigration.

Maybe what's going on is that the problem is a labour shortage and that the various governance authorities (government at various levels, corporate, etc.) have failed to address it. If the economy can absorb 11 to 13 million illegal workers, maybe it's because the USA needs them and that the "market" is attempting to solve the shortage problem through illegal immigration. Now this is obviously not a good way to address the issue, but while companies wait for the various "leaders" to take action, there is work that needs doing, so they get on with it.

Aside from emotional resentment of "foreigners" coupled with perceived native unemployment, is there really a problem that needs to be fixed here and will stopping illegal immigrant flow fix it? Especially considering that immigration from Mexico has been decreasing for years and in fact many are returning to Mexico because of improved economic conditions there. Are people lathering themselves into a frenzy worrying about something that is going away anyway?

Imo, it's probably healthy to be a little skeptical of measures that attack low-hanging fruit? For years, they arrested local drug dealers as if the illegal drug situation was a supply problem and not a demand problem. Did that work?

Huh? We're currently seeing one of the biggest migrations in human history all across the world, going by numbers anyway. Millions of people are fleeing poverty, failed states, religious disasters and climate change and they are heading north towards Europe and North America, mainly. We only see our little bit of it where we live, but the larger picture is more sobering and more startling. If or when climate change starts to bite, with heat and water shortages rendering whole areas effectively uninhabitable and unable to sustain agriculture, the migrations will only increase. In Western democracies, crooked demagogues offer easy answers based on xenophobia such as things will be fine if we ban Mexicans, chuck out Polish people and leave the EC, blame the gang next door, whatever. The same fellows then deny climate change and cut off foreign aid. It's rotgut and only makes things worse. There are no easy answers. In my view this is a huge problem for the world. Unchecked migration will result in carnage unless managed. Part of that will be tackling the causes back in the developing world where it starts. This will be one of the biggest issues to tackle in the next half century. A start would be getting people who recognize what's going on. That means planning for something better than the likes of Trump.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5898 on: September 01, 2017, 12:55:02 pm »

Huh? We're currently seeing one of the biggest migrations in human history all across the world, going by numbers anyway. Millions of people are fleeing poverty, failed states, religious disasters and climate change and they are heading north towards Europe and North America, mainly. We only see our little bit of it where we live, but the larger picture is more sobering and more startling. If or when climate change starts to bite, with heat and water shortages rendering whole areas effectively uninhabitable and unable to sustain agriculture, the migrations will only increase. In Western democracies, crooked demagogues offer easy answers based on xenophobia such as things will be fine if we ban Mexicans, chuck out Polish people and leave the EC, blame the gang next door, whatever. The same fellows then deny climate change and cut off foreign aid. It's rotgut and only makes things worse. There are no easy answers. In my view this is a huge problem for the world. Unchecked migration will result in carnage unless managed. Part of that will be tackling the causes back in the developing world where it starts. This will be one of the biggest issues to tackle in the next half century. A start would be getting people who recognize what's going on. That means planning for something better than the likes of Trump.
The sky isn't falling.  While migration is in the few millions, that's an tiny number compared to the 7+ billion people on earth. 

Also, you're confusing patriotism and nationalism with xenophobia.  Whether in America or Britain, people are loyal to their nation.  Despite the EU, Germans care little about France and the French care little about anyone other then themselves.  Let's get real. 

Regarding Trump, America rejected the corruption, elitism and globalism of the Clintons.  Trump is an nationalist and patriot which used to be considered quality traits for Presidents.  While he cares about others, he puts Americans first.  He replaced Obama who put the world first.  It's what happened with Brexit in your Britain. 

Chris Kern

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5899 on: September 01, 2017, 01:08:38 pm »

Aside from emotional resentment of "foreigners" coupled with perceived native unemployment, is there really a problem that needs to be fixed here and will stopping illegal immigrant flow fix it?

It depends on which problem, and on the perspective of the person talking about it.  There are a number of types of "illegal immigrants" (many of whom, by the way, technically are not "immigrants" within the meaning of the U.S. Immigration and Nationality Act).

We have people who enter the country unlawfully.  These include people who enter without inspection—that is, they sneak across a border—and people who enter fraudulently: for example, they enter as tourists or other short-term visitors but actually are intending immigrants, they enter under a false pretext as a spouse or prospective spouse of a citizen, etc.

We have people who enter lawfully, but whose presence subsequently becomes unlawful after they arrive.  For example, people who enter under a visa or visa waiver agreement that does not permit them to work, but then accept a job offer.  (Prospective employers are supposed to verify that foreign applicants are authorized to work in the United States, but those pre-hiring checks are often cursory and only the most blatant employer-violators are likely to be caught and sanctioned by the government.)

We have people who enter lawfully and simply overstay their visas or the terms of the visa waiver agreements with their countries of origin.

There are also some special categories, the best-known of which is people who entered the country with their parents as young children and who assumed they were U.S. citizens or permanent residents—only to discover that they are neither.  (These are the so-called DREAMers, a double entendre on the term "American Dream" and the acronym of a proposed law, the Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors Act, that Congress considered but never enacted).

All these people are technically subject to deportation or voluntary departure (an administrative agreement by the foreigner to leave the United States by a specified date), even if they haven’t committed any crime.  During the latter years of the Obama Administration, the government emphasized the removal of criminal aliens and tended to leave the rest alone.  It's not clear to what extent the Trump Administration will continue this policy.  Interestingly, two U.S. immigration agencies—the Border Patrol and Immigration and Customs Enforcement—issued a joint statement earlier this week saying they would not routinely target law-abiding aliens at evacuation sites, shelters, or food banks in the flooded areas of Texas.
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