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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 918372 times)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5500 on: August 24, 2017, 10:20:36 am »

https://thinkprogress.org/in-oct-2003-dni-nominee-james-clapper-said-it-was-unquestionably-true-that-iraq-moved-wmd-to-syria-8fcc73cd1be7/

Thanks for supplying a link, now we can start discussing it from the same viewpoint based on the same information.

I noted the part you quoted: "He said he was providing a personal assessment.". So based on his satellite imagery info (without further confirmation, e.g. ground-based observations), he apparently took an educated guess. His service did not produce an official report stating WMD transports (because the National Imagery and Mapping Agency that he was directing could not confirm what was in the transports, only that satellite imagery was showing "a heavy flow of traffic from Iraq into Syria", just before the American invasion in March).

In fact, the New York Times had a bit more detailed reporting at the time, and they said:
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He said he was providing a personal assessment. But he said ''the obvious conclusion one draws'' was that there ''may have been people leaving the scene, fleeing Iraq, and unquestionably, I am sure, material.'' A spokesman for General Clapper's agency, David Burpee, said he could not provide further evidence to support the general's statement.

But other American intelligence officials said General Clapper's theory was among those being pursued in Iraq by David Kay, a former United Nations weapons inspector who is leading the American effort to uncover the weapons cited by the Bush administration as the major reason for going to war against Iraq.


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as every single american official he is a patented liar

Careless to vent a personal assessment to reporters, yes. A liar, I don't see how, since he assumed people, and with more certainly material was being transported (which kind of makes sense, one usually doesn't transport people in the back of closed trucks in a desert environment).

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PS: and please do not try to inject "his service reported" ( as your intent with such attempt is clear here  ;D ) - we are about him being a liar and you using liars to support your "point"

So we just established that his personal assessment (informal guesstimate) was perhaps not accurate as far as WMDs were concerned (or maybe it was, and Assad later used some of that material). How is that lying? Did he state it as a fact? His assessment was one of several from different intelligence services.

I don't know if he was lying until something more revealing is presented, but you do seem to be sure ...
Fine with me, but I'm not buying it.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5501 on: August 24, 2017, 10:46:33 am »

If they're working now, what's the problem. And yes, I know, there's no to reiterate that they are in the country illegally. I'm not advocating flaunting the rule of law, but if the law cannot be enforced, who is kidding whom. The thing is, now, what would be the point of spending all the money to chase down 11 million (or 13 or whatever the number is) illegal immigrants who are WORKING in order to get rid of them. I presume it's because after they're gone, Americans will get those jobs? What was stopping those Americans from getting those jobs in the first place?

As for tracking them down and deporting them: 1. What are the real chances of this working, given that you have a criminal justice system that can't keep illegal drugs out of prisons, and 2. How could it possibly be worth the expense?

You missed my point.  I guess I wasn't clear.  I didn't say chase down anyone except the American employers who hire illegals.  If you arrest and jail a couple of those employers for hiring illegals, other employers would stop hiring.  Illegal entry into the US would dry up.  You don't need to build a wall. 

If you want to deal with those who are already in the US in a different way, such as eventually giving them permanent status, then apply the work rule only to those hired going forward.  That would stop new illegal immigration.  I think that is a humane policy.  It secures our borders and gives "illegals" already here an opportunity to become full America citizens at some point. 

Illegals who have violated other criminal laws such as robbery, rape, etc., should be prosecuted and jailed and then returned to their country when their jail term is over.

We have over 12 million illegals about a third of the entire population of Canada.  Maybe we can send a few up north.  :)

Interesting your PM Trudeau is complaining about illegal immigration in Canada lately, as well.  Of course the scale in miniscule compared to America.   Only a few hundred a month up there.  In the US we apprehend about 50,000 a month.  Interesting that this news about Canada complaining about illegals didn't pop up on Google giving a NY Times or Washington Post article on this issue.  Only more obscure publications.  Another example of the biased press only focusing on stuff that attempts to denigrate Trump.  Hiw supporters understand the drill. 
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2284855-Canada-s-Trudeau-Sounds-Alarm-About-Illegal-Immigrants

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5502 on: August 24, 2017, 10:50:43 am »

Thanks for supplying a link, now we can start discussing it from the same viewpoint based on the same information.

I noted the part you quoted: "He said he was providing a personal assessment.". So based on his satellite imagery info (without further confirmation, e.g. ground-based observations), he apparently took an educated guess. His service did not produce an official report stating WMD transports (because the National Imagery and Mapping Agency that he was directing could not confirm what was in the transports, only that satellite imagery was showing "a heavy flow of traffic from Iraq into Syria", just before the American invasion in March).

In fact, the New York Times had a bit more detailed reporting at the time, and they said:

Careless to vent a personal assessment to reporters, yes. A liar, I don't see how, since he assumed people, and with more certainly material was being transported (which kind of makes sense, one usually doesn't transport people in the back of closed trucks in a desert environment).

So we just established that his personal assessment (informal guesstimate) was perhaps not accurate as far as WMDs were concerned (or maybe it was, and Assad later used some of that material). How is that lying? Did he state it as a fact? His assessment was one of several from different intelligence services.

I don't know if he was lying until something more revealing is presented, but you do seem to be sure ...
Fine with me, but I'm not buying it.

Cheers,
Bart
Your argument supports that Bush was right invading Iraq.  After all, Clapper helped confirm they were moving WMD's around.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5503 on: August 24, 2017, 11:14:46 am »

... So we just established that his personal assessment (informal guesstimate) was perhaps not accurate... How is that lying?...

Would you be willing to apply the same charitable, stretchable criterion to Trump as well?  ;)

Otto Phocus

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5504 on: August 24, 2017, 11:31:57 am »

And now for something completely different...

What’s the difference between Donald Trump and Twitter?

A Twitter post has 140 characters. Trump has no character at all.

(rimshot)
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5505 on: August 24, 2017, 12:29:17 pm »

Your argument supports that Bush was right invading Iraq.  After all, Clapper helped confirm they were moving WMD's around.

Since when do people and 'material' equal WMDs ???

Perhaps when one is looking for an excuse to invade?

Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5506 on: August 24, 2017, 12:33:32 pm »

Would you be willing to apply the same charitable, stretchable criterion to Trump as well?  ;)

Sure, when he stops lying.

I know, I know, when someone thinks he is not lying, one could argue that he is not lying but is misguided/delusional.

Cheers,
Bart
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5507 on: August 24, 2017, 12:45:24 pm »

... If you arrest and jail a couple of those employers for hiring illegals, other employers would stop hiring.

If you want to deal with those who are already in the US in a different way, such as eventually giving them permanent status, then apply the work rule only to those hired going forward.  That would stop new illegal immigration.  I think that is a humane policy.  It secures our borders and gives "illegals" already here an opportunity to become full America citizens at some point.

Agreed.  A logical and humane strategy.  Maybe even effective.  Who knew?  :)
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Otto Phocus

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5508 on: August 24, 2017, 01:18:50 pm »

As long as we prosecute the business owners/CEOs and not just some low manager.  Nothing will change until some rich guys are thrown in the slam.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5509 on: August 24, 2017, 02:00:04 pm »

Do you realize that, according to the current legislation, I, as an employer, am not allowed to question the veracity of the immigration documents presented? That I would be subject to fines if I did? And then when they turn out to be fake, I should then go to jail!? While, in the meantime the guy who presented them would get a driver's license, free medical, education, etc. While I am in jail!? Get real and just kick them out. I do agree that employers should be seriously fined, after they are allowed to question the documents.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5510 on: August 24, 2017, 02:54:35 pm »

according to the current legislation, I, as an employer, am not allowed to question the veracity of the immigration documents presented?

Who can, then?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5511 on: August 24, 2017, 03:12:05 pm »

Who can, then?

That's apparently the point: nobody. I have a suspicion (not knowledge, granted) that it was done by design, as everything else, to encourage illegal immigration.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5512 on: August 24, 2017, 03:35:19 pm »

The underlying assumption seems to be that illegal immigration costs Americans jobs. I can see where it's tempting to assume that, but is it true? Has Freakonomics studied this, for example? How do we decide if it's true or not?

I don't think it's the case that an illegal immigrant can knock on a door and say to the employer, Hey, why don't you fire that guy over there and hire me instead? The employers who hire illegals are hiring workers first, I presume, and they're hiring based on who knocks on the door and asks for a job. I don't believe they hang up a sign saying we only hire illegals.

Now, are they hiring illegal immigrants because no Americans are knocking on their doors? Maybe the demand for jobs is outstripping supply, and the illegals are getting jobs that would otherwise have been unfilled. Or maybe the illegals are pricing themselves so low on the labour market that Americans are being crowded out. Either scenario is plausible and until there is data showing it is one way or the other, all we have are emotional arguments.

Are there studies showing that the majority of illegals are working at less than the avg wage in the relevant sector? Because if that's not the case, you cannot make the argument that they are stealing jobs. Until we have meaningful economic data showing what is actually occurring, we're just guessing.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5513 on: August 24, 2017, 03:41:03 pm »

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James Clark

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5514 on: August 24, 2017, 03:47:15 pm »

Do you realize that, according to the current legislation, I, as an employer, am not allowed to question the veracity of the immigration documents presented? That I would be subject to fines if I did? And then when they turn out to be fake, I should then go to jail!? While, in the meantime the guy who presented them would get a driver's license, free medical, education, etc. While I am in jail!? Get real and just kick them out. I do agree that employers should be seriously fined, after they are allowed to question the documents.

Wait.. what??

https://www.uscis.gov/e-verify

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U.S. law requires companies to employ only individuals who may legally work in the United States – either U.S. citizens, or foreign citizens who have the necessary authorization. This diverse workforce contributes greatly to the vibrancy and strength of our economy, but that same strength also attracts unauthorized employment.

E-Verify is an Internet-based system that allows businesses to determine the eligibility of their employees to work in the United States. E-Verify is fast, free and easy to use – and it’s the best way employers can ensure a legal workforce.

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Peter McLennan

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5515 on: August 24, 2017, 03:52:44 pm »

 :) :) :)

Nice work, James.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5516 on: August 24, 2017, 04:01:15 pm »

Meanwhile, this by  Nicholas Kristof: We’re Journalists, Mr. Trump, Not the Enemy

"Sigh. If only President Trump denounced neo-Nazis as passionately and sincerely as he castigates journalists."
"Since Trump was elected, the stock price of the Times Company has risen by almost two-thirds. Thank you for your assistance, Mr. President!"

So much for the "Failing New York Times"  :)

First thing invaders do is disrupt and discredit the media.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/24/opinion/trump-journalists-enemy.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region

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James Clark

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5517 on: August 24, 2017, 04:05:30 pm »

:) :) :)

Nice work, James.

I'm not trying to be a smartass - I'm just not clear on the issue.  As an employer also, (and an employer in SoCal and Texas, where we need to worry about such things), I'm just not understanding what Slobodan is asserting, since it's absolutely NOT illegal to verify eligibility.  If it's that he can't continue to question certified employees, well, I'm not particularly sympathetic to that, but I don't THINK that's what he was getting at either.  Dunno...
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digitaldog

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5518 on: August 24, 2017, 04:21:05 pm »

I'm not trying to be a smartass -
Smartass no, smart, yes. Someone who is examining the facts, not those alternative ones. If only 1/3rd of the country would follow suite.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5519 on: August 24, 2017, 05:23:40 pm »

The underlying assumption seems to be that illegal immigration costs Americans jobs. I can see where it's tempting to assume that, but is it true? Has Freakonomics studied this, for example? How do we decide if it's true or not?

I don't think it's the case that an illegal immigrant can knock on a door and say to the employer, Hey, why don't you fire that guy over there and hire me instead? The employers who hire illegals are hiring workers first, I presume, and they're hiring based on who knocks on the door and asks for a job. I don't believe they hang up a sign saying we only hire illegals.

Now, are they hiring illegal immigrants because no Americans are knocking on their doors? Maybe the demand for jobs is outstripping supply, and the illegals are getting jobs that would otherwise have been unfilled. Or maybe the illegals are pricing themselves so low on the labour market that Americans are being crowded out. Either scenario is plausible and until there is data showing it is one way or the other, all we have are emotional arguments.

Are there studies showing that the majority of illegals are working at less than the avg wage in the relevant sector? Because if that's not the case, you cannot make the argument that they are stealing jobs. Until we have meaningful economic data showing what is actually occurring, we're just guessing.
Even if illegals were being paid what is being offered to Americans, and the wage would be equal to what an American would be paid if the illegal wasn't competing, the fact that there are more people applying, some of them illegals, means that Americans are losing jobs to illegals from other countries. 

Now the fact is illegals are being paid less.  So Americans are really being blocked from even competing for those jobs.

The fact is the wages paid to anyone is based on scarcity of prospective employees.  The more applicants, the lower the wage.  So since there are more applicants due to millions of illegals, that forces wages down and replaces Americans who would otherwise get the job. 

Speaking of scarcity and the cost of things reminds me of the joke of the old lady who went shopping for chop meat. 

So the old lady goes to the butcher, and asks, "I need one pound of chop meat.  How much is it?"
The Butcher responds, "Well, we charge $5 a pound but unfortunately, we're all out of chop meat today."
So the old lady leaves and walks to another butcher and asks, " I need one pound of chop meat.  How much is it and do you have any?"
"Oh," says butcher #2.  "  We have loads of chop meat.  And it's $7 a pound."
"$7 a pound," says the old lady irately.  "The other butcher only wanted $5 a pound."
"Well." says butcher #2.  "When we're out of chop meat, we only charge $3 a pound."
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