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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 918096 times)

LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4660 on: August 03, 2017, 10:49:56 pm »

Funny, I couldn't collect enough "merit" points to qualify for Canada, back in 2004. I was one point short... I didn't speak French. Never mind that I had no intention to live or work in Montreal or Quebec, never mind that I speak three other languages fluently and two elementary, never mind that I already had an MBA from an American University, resume with four blue-chip multinationals, etc... I wasn't good enough. Had I been a Muslim terrorist, however... Killing an American soldier would probably get me bonus points as well.

I don't understand Canadian merit point immigration rules neither.
In early eighties, a friend of mine with his wife, who both finished their studies in west Germany visited me in Toronto and they liked Canada so much, that they decided to immigrate here. They were young and healthy, with no dependents, highly educated, no criminal records, some savings - perfect immigration material. However, for some reason Canada didn't want them. Subsequently, they applied for immigration visa to USA, which they received without any problems. They live now in Virginia.

While, as Slobodan points out, many undesirable individuals, some even with criminal records received their Canadian landed immigrant visa without any problems.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4661 on: August 03, 2017, 10:53:12 pm »

... Presumably, these people are working at something somewhere, so they contribute to the economy... If they are living and working in your cities, then they are contributing to the economy by buying food, clothes, cars, paying rent, etc. The consumption of those goods and services IS the economy...

Ok, back to the general discussion.

"Remittances Supersede Oil As Mexico's Main Source Of Foreign Income"

https://www.forbes.com/sites/doliaestevez/2016/05/16/remittances-supersede-oil-as-mexicos-main-source-of-foreign-income/#5cf4392c1754

"Remittances surpassed crude oil revenues for the first time in history in December of 2014. Since then, remittances have continued to increase even to the point of representing more than twice the value of crude oil exports since December of 2015," José Alfredo Coutiño, Moody’s Director for Latin America..."

Which raises the question of who actually benefits the most of the legal/illegal Mexican immigration.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4662 on: August 03, 2017, 10:56:42 pm »

... This is a public discussion board, a Canadian one in fact...

Touché!  :D

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4663 on: August 04, 2017, 12:49:27 am »

I don't understand this response. I am not trying to tell you how Americans should spend their tax money, I was just wondering aloud about some of the concepts we've been discussing.
Robert, You weren't wondering aloud.  You made a moral judgment against Americans.  The fact is our immigration policies are more liberal than the ones in Canada where you come from.  Additionally, you were advising people in another country to spend their tax money supporting aliens in America who are here illegally,  Meanwhile in your country, safety nets would not be supplied to your illegals in the same way. They probably would all be arrested and immediately deported. 

Then Phil joins in  supporting your hypocritical views with even more of his own.  After all,  he comes from Australia whose immigration policies are even more stringent than the strict policies in Canada. Certainly more strict than America's.   

It seems to me that both of your countries would have a lot to learn about fairness to immigrants and illegals if you just followed America's lenient policies.  In any case, maybe you should clean up your own messes before advising others how they should live. 

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4664 on: August 04, 2017, 12:52:26 am »

LA made $1.3B in illegal immigrant welfare payouts in just 2 years - Fox News
https://apple.news/Ai5r8T5Z9RzKwyfuz5KD5AQ

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4665 on: August 04, 2017, 12:57:15 am »

I didn't think I had much of a stance on illegal immigration... you have 13 million illegal aliens/immigrants ... I'm not sure it serves much purpose to demonize them...

Ahmmm... sounds like a stance to me  :)

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4666 on: August 04, 2017, 01:12:22 am »

LA made $1.3B in illegal immigrant welfare payouts in just 2 years - Fox News
https://apple.news/Ai5r8T5Z9RzKwyfuz5KD5AQ
It's worse in New York.  This is from a 2015 article, link below.

"New York’s illegal alien population of 750,000 costs the Empire State billions of taxpayer dollars every year.

Tax payers in New York pay approximately $5.1 billion per year to support immigrants who are illegally residing in their state, according to the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR). Of the billions, about $4.3 billion is spent on illegal immigrant children in New York’s public schools, about $690 million is spent on health care, and another $165 million is spent on incarcerating, deporting, and prosecuting illegal immigrants.

Although every New York household made up of American citizens pays an estimated $874 every year to support their illegal neighbors, the state makes some money back. The illegal immigrant population in New York pays approximately $730 million every year in sales, income, and property taxes. "


http://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/illegal-immigration-cost-New-York/2015/10/17/id/696663/

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4667 on: August 04, 2017, 01:58:40 am »

Love it...Trump's gonna hate it (which is why I love it)



TRUMP, AMERICA'S BOY KING: GOLF AND TELEVISION WON'T MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN

Just a quick snippet...

Quote
Were he to reach the White House, Trump said, he wouldn’t make the same mistake for which he’d been lambasting Obama since 2011. “I'm going to be working for you,” he told supporters in August 2016. “I'm not going to have time to go play golf.”

Now that he’s president, Trump frequently departs the White House and spends the weekend golfing at either his South Florida resort, Mar-a-Lago, or his country club in the New Jersey suburb of Bedminster. The promise he’d made a year before was discarded so quickly, you have to wonder if he even remembers making it. Politico did the legwork: George W. Bush didn’t golf for the first five months of his presidency, while Obama stayed away from his beloved links for four months following his inauguration. Trump held out for all of two weeks. He has visited a golf club 40 times since taking office in January, according to the self-explanatory site Trump Golf Count, which estimates the forays have cost American taxpayers $55 million. Another Trump tracker, this one by The New York Times, finds that his visits to Trump-branded properties total 56 days, nearly a third of his time in office.

All indications are he's not really having any fun (other than golf). Remember the Reuters Interview? In late April, the president confessed that he was both overwhelmed and frustrated. “I loved my previous life,” he said. “I had so many things going. This is more work than in my previous life. I thought it would be easier.”

And more to the point, what does he have to show for all his paltry efforts? Little to nothing unless you count the scorn of virtually every leader in the world-including Putin since Trump signed the Russian sanctions bill. Heck this is what the Prime Minister of Russia had to say in a tweet...

Quote
Dmitry Medvedev‏Verified account
@MedvedevRussiaE
The Trump administration has shown its total weakness by handing over executive power to Congress in the most humiliating way
1:38 PM - 2 Aug 2017

Ouch...even though it wasn't his buddy Putin ya gotta figure Dmitry wrote what he wrote with Vlad's blessing...

We're coming up on the 2nd 100 days and arguably, things are worse now than at the end of the first 100 days...can you even remember back then?

Here's a cheat sheet: INSIDE DONALD TRUMP'S TUMULTUOUS FIRST 100 DAYS

Much ado about nothing...

Lazy Boy is right...
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4668 on: August 04, 2017, 02:44:29 am »

The USA has not always used a family based immigration policy.  Returning to a merit policy, although a mild one, I think would do a great good for the USA.

Of course, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, so it would be best if the Reps and the Dems worked together on this.

I don't have a fundamental problem with trying to get the best people to emigrate into the US but...from what I've read, the current merit system is suspect. But the real problem I see with this legal immigration plan is the fact it's trying to cut legal immigration about in half...

Now the alt right and populists may like this but in point of fact it would have a real negative impact in actual growth. The US population growth is down: Growth of U.S. Population Is at Slowest Pace Since 1937

Quote
The United States population grew by 0.7 percent in the last year, its smallest annual expansion in 80 years, the Census Bureau said this week.

The nation added about 2.2 million people from July 2015 to July 2016, bringing the total population to just over 323 million. In relative terms, that was the slowest rate of annual growth since 1937, though census methods have changed over that time.

The sluggishness is nothing new: The American population entered a period of slow expansion in recent years, with growth averaging just over 0.7 percent in the 2010s, according to an analysis of census data. The rate averaged about 1 percent annually in the 2000s and 1.2 percent in the 1990s. In the 1950s, the middle of the baby boom, growth averaged 1.8 percent each year.

So, as our own population has tapered off, we've made up for the reduction by the increase in legal immigrants–and our economy is now the better for it.

Also, there's the question of legal immigrants doing the work no American would accept...Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don’t want the job

Quote
The flow of labor began drying up when President Obama tightened the border. Now President Trump is promising to deport more people, raid more companies and build a wall on the southern border.

That has made California farms a proving ground for the Trump team’s theory that by cutting off the flow of immigrants they will free up more jobs for American-born workers and push up their wages.

So far, the results aren’t encouraging for farmers or domestic workers.

Farmers are being forced to make difficult choices about whether to abandon some of the state’s hallmark fruits and vegetables, move operations abroad, import workers under a special visa or replace them altogether with machines.

Growers who can afford it have already begun raising worker pay well beyond minimum wage. Wages for crop production in California increased by 13% from 2010 to 2015, twice as fast as average pay in the state, according to a Los Angeles Times analysis of data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

So, if the numbers of legal immigrants is cut, particularly in favor of college grads which speak English (you don't need to speak English to work in fields) ya know what happens...the cost of food will rise and that hurts everybody but hurts lower economic people worse.

And guess what–this is gonna hurt Trump voters the hardest because, well, it's the Red States that are the primary agro businesses that will be hurt.

And remember, we've already learned the Law Of Unintended Consequences...it's older but still relevant: The Law Of Unintended Consequences: Georgia's Immigration Law Backfires

Quote
To forgo a repeat of last year, when labor shortages triggered an estimated $140 million in agricultural losses, as crops rotted in the fields, officials in Georgia are now dispatching prisoners to the state’s farms to help harvest fruit and vegetables.

The labor shortages, which also have affected the hotel and restaurant industries, are a consequence of Georgia’s immigration enforcement law, HB 87, which was passed last year.  As State Rep. Matt Ramsey, one of the bill’s authors, said at the time, “Our goal is … to eliminate incentives for illegal aliens to cross into our state.”

Now he and others are learning: Be careful what you wish for, because you may get more than you bargained for.

The odds are pretty good that this immigration effort won't find itself in any laws because Trump is toxic and to really do immigration reform it will take a bipartisan effort which basically means Congress needs to work together and pretty much ignore the Big Orange Dummy™ like they did for the Russian sanctions...if Congress can get veto proof consensus then Trump becomes irrelevant–which he's becoming more and more.
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Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4669 on: August 04, 2017, 05:54:33 am »

Robert, You weren't wondering aloud.  You made a moral judgment against Americans.  The fact is our immigration policies are more liberal than the ones in Canada where you come from.  Additionally, you were advising people in another country to spend their tax money supporting aliens in America who are here illegally,  Meanwhile in your country, safety nets would not be supplied to your illegals in the same way. They probably would all be arrested and immediately deported. 

Then Phil joins in  supporting your hypocritical views with even more of his own.  After all,  he comes from Australia whose immigration policies are even more stringent than the strict policies in Canada. Certainly more strict than America's.   

It seems to me that both of your countries would have a lot to learn about fairness to immigrants and illegals if you just followed America's lenient policies.  In any case, maybe you should clean up your own messes before advising others how they should live.

Show me once, just once, Alan, where I said that your immigration policies as a whole were inappropriate or unfair or that you shouldn't have the right to decide who comes into your country or anything even remotely similar.  All I have EVER said is that Trump's bans were pointless, achieved nothing, and in fact just made things worse because they looked like he was doing something to appease the masses when in fact it did nothing to make you safer.

So before you lecture me on my views, you had bloody well better read and see what I've written and then comment on them.  This is a general discussion board and we are discussing things.  I haver never once said you should follow Australia's lead on immigration or anything or the like.  My nationality has nothing to do with whether or not I can contribute to a general discussion about anything on this thread.  Similarly , Robert made no such attempt to lecture you about anything.  Any time anyone who isn't an American says something you don't like or can't argue with you start ranting about how they have no right to tell you anything about the US because they're not Americans.  Get a bloody grip, mate.  You're not special by virtue of the random chance you were born in a particular place or not.

For the record, I support strong border control and immigration policies which meet the needs of the relevant country.  Australia's immigrations policies are such that per capita we have a much higher intake of immigrants than the US, so tell me again how we need more lenient policies?  As usual, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.  The one policy you are vaguely referring to is the one that prohibits illegal immigrants from landing by ship and applying to immigrate as asylum seekers.  Yes, the navy actively tows boats back out to sea.  It's a policy that generates a lot of dissent and controversy within Australia but successive governments from both sides of politics support it and have been elected with it as their policy.  It is what it is in that respect.

The US, over generations and multiple parties from both sides, has effectively enabled illegal immigration and now has a very large population to contend with.  Before you start espousing moral superiority, consider how you intend to justly and reasonable deal with those people who have, for all intents and purposes, been effectively officially allowed to continue living there.  But mostly, just actually read what people say and pull your head out from the sand - it's tiresome.
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Phil Brown

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4671 on: August 04, 2017, 06:39:28 am »

You made a moral judgment against Americans. 

I did no such thing.
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Robert

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4672 on: August 04, 2017, 09:44:20 am »

Also, I'd say that worrying about remittances is a waste of time and energy. We're talking about 11 to 13 million people who, after paying their own living expenses, take part of what's left over and send it home to help their families out. And we're not talking about people who are near the top of the income food chain either. The amounts of money involved must be negligibly trivial. The combined readers of these forums probably spend more on coffee every month. :)
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4673 on: August 04, 2017, 09:52:31 am »

Also, I'd say that worrying about remittances is a waste of time and energy... The amounts of money involved must be negligibly trivial. The combined readers of these forums probably spend more on coffee every month. :)

That would be one hell of expensive coffee then:

(from the article I referenced previously)

Quote
In 2016, first quarter remittances of $6.2 billion were 56.7% higher than the $2.6 billion earned from oil exports for the same period. The remittances for the quarter represents an 8.6% jump over the funds sent in the same period in 2015, according to Mexico's Central Bank data.

Last year, Mexican remittances were $24.8 billion, while oil exports were $18.7 billion. With remittances growing and oil revenues decreasing, the pattern is likely to continue.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4674 on: August 04, 2017, 10:03:22 am »

... The US, over generations and multiple parties from both sides, has effectively enabled illegal immigration and now has a very large population to contend with.... how you intend to justly and reasonable deal with those people who have, for all intents and purposes, been effectively officially allowed to continue living there...

I agree with the first part of the observation. That's the original sin of the immigration politics.

And yet... just because a cop, eating a donut and having a full cup of coffee in his hand, decided not to engage in the pursuit of a speeding car, doesn't mean you are not breaking the law, and that the next cop along the road has no right to stop you. That next cop is Trump.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 11:33:41 am by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4675 on: August 04, 2017, 11:32:16 am »

I did no such thing.
You did make moral judgments.  When you say that the big shots are getting handouts, what you are realing saying is that illegals are not afforded similar rights.  Well, that's a moral judgment.  Once you start comparing "fairness", you're playing the morals argument game.  Liberals do this all the time.  It comes natural too them.   "It's unfair that blacks don't get into colleges at the same rate as whites."  "It's unfair that the poor cannot eat the same food as the rich."  "It's unfair that illegal aliens are denied their 'rights" while rich guys get all kinds of tax breaks."

Here's from your post:
"People expend an inordinate amount of emotional energy, it seems to me, worrying about the possible "costs" that illegals cost the system, but are there data showing that they cost the system any more than legal citizens do? How does that compare to the various forms of corporate welfare that the various levels of government pay out to Big Oil, Big Corn, Big Sugar, etc.

How much tax money paid by the avg joe is turned over to the one-percenters who own pro sports franchises when cities and states given them stadiums and other tax holidays based on the confidence game that these places benefit local economies (something that has been fund untrue by every economic analysis ever done)? We like to make fun of corrupt governments in the underdeveloped world, but viewed from a couple of steps back, how is the handing over of tax money to pro sports enterprises anything but corruption? It's theft on a grand scale, imo, although at the same time I have to admire the audacity of the con."

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4676 on: August 04, 2017, 11:44:13 am »

Show me once, just once, Alan, where I said that your immigration policies as a whole were inappropriate or unfair or that you shouldn't have the right to decide who comes into your country or anything even remotely similar.  All I have EVER said is that Trump's bans were pointless, achieved nothing, and in fact just made things worse because they looked like he was doing something to appease the masses when in fact it did nothing to make you safer.

So before you lecture me on my views, you had bloody well better read and see what I've written and then comment on them.  This is a general discussion board and we are discussing things.  I haver never once said you should follow Australia's lead on immigration or anything or the like.  My nationality has nothing to do with whether or not I can contribute to a general discussion about anything on this thread.  Similarly , Robert made no such attempt to lecture you about anything.  Any time anyone who isn't an American says something you don't like or can't argue with you start ranting about how they have no right to tell you anything about the US because they're not Americans.  Get a bloody grip, mate.  You're not special by virtue of the random chance you were born in a particular place or not.

For the record, I support strong border control and immigration policies which meet the needs of the relevant country.  Australia's immigrations policies are such that per capita we have a much higher intake of immigrants than the US, so tell me again how we need more lenient policies?  As usual, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.  The one policy you are vaguely referring to is the one that prohibits illegal immigrants from landing by ship and applying to immigrate as asylum seekers.  Yes, the navy actively tows boats back out to sea.  It's a policy that generates a lot of dissent and controversy within Australia but successive governments from both sides of politics support it and have been elected with it as their policy.  It is what it is in that respect.

The US, over generations and multiple parties from both sides, has effectively enabled illegal immigration and now has a very large population to contend with.  Before you start espousing moral superiority, consider how you intend to justly and reasonable deal with those people who have, for all intents and purposes, been effectively officially allowed to continue living there.  But mostly, just actually read what people say and pull your head out from the sand - it's tiresome.
You supported Roaldi's arguments many of which were which were morally based.  So you were making moral judgments against American policies as well.  Whether they were moral, economically based, or whatever, the fact that Canada and Australia have more harsh immigration policies than America should give you pause before criticizing ours.  Most Americans who post don't go around criticizing other countries policies on such "in the weeds" issues.  It's your country and you can decide how to run it.  Why do so many non-Americans feel they have to tell Americans how we should live? 

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4677 on: August 04, 2017, 11:51:31 am »

... Why do so many non-Americans feel they have to tell Americans how we should live? 

Because we stick our nose in everybody else's lives? ;)

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4678 on: August 04, 2017, 12:04:49 pm »

Because we stick our nose in everybody else's lives? ;)
That's true for our government, unfortunately.  But I like to think not here in the threads.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4679 on: August 04, 2017, 12:26:14 pm »

Looks like Jeff is losing steam, so I decided to help ;)

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