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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 918153 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4640 on: August 03, 2017, 03:27:11 pm »

FWIW, between 1860 and 1930, the foreign-born portion of the U.S. population averaged 13.6 percent. It was 14.8 percent in 1910. The foreign-born population in 2013 was 13%. Things actually haven't changed much.
That's not accurate and misleading.  The 1940, 1950,1960 and 1970 census shows foreign born population declining. It was only 4.7% in 1970.  It increased each following decade 1980 until the latest in 2010 when it reached the highest since 1920 at 12.9%.  So we're matching the highest basically since the huge influx of American immigration at the turn of 19th century. 

What I don't know is whether the recent foreign population percentage includes illegal immigrants or whether they would be in addition to the census figures.  If it's the latter, than we currently have the largest foreign population ever. 

So Trump's desire to get a handle on current legal and illegal immigration  is not unreasonable to keep them within norms of our history. 

 
https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/foreign_born_population_chart.jpg?w=768&crop=0%2C0px%2C100%2C636px

James Clark

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4641 on: August 03, 2017, 03:41:52 pm »


So Trump's desire to get a handle on current legal and illegal immigration  is not unreasonable to keep them within norms of our history. 


Well, it would be the first time Trump apparently gave a damn about any of our norms, historical or otherwise, so there's that.   ;D
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4642 on: August 03, 2017, 03:45:47 pm »

In blustery call, Trump pressured Mexico on border wall payment
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-idUSKBN1AJ20F

QUOTE  August 3, 2017 / 3:59 PM  "WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump pressured the Mexican president to stop voicing opposition in public to his plan to have Mexico pay for a border wall, according to transcripts of phone calls published on Thursday that gave an insight into Trump's attempts to influence foreign leaders in his first days in office.

The Washington Post published texts of sometimes fraught calls with Mexico's Enrique Pena Nieto and Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull just days after the Republican took office on Jan. 20.

The substance of the calls has previously been reported but the lengthy transcripts reveal Trump, whose first elected office is the presidency, trying to use a mixture of bluster, tough talk and charm as he fully enters the world of diplomacy.

Trump argued with Turnbull over refugees in an acrimonious call on Jan. 28 which the new U.S. president told his counterpart was "unpleasant."

[...]

Trump told the Mexican leader in the call that "if you are going to say that Mexico is not going to pay for the wall, then I do not want to meet with you guys anymore because I cannot live with that,” according to the transcript.

“You cannot say that to the press,” Trump said. "



Seems he hasn't learned much since ... He still thinks that bluster, tough talk, and charm will do it.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4643 on: August 03, 2017, 03:47:28 pm »

you have to blame teachers unions (tenures,  pensions instead of 401K, etc) for that and interest groups imposing various expenditures - not immigrants... school buses, my a$$ ??? I walked to school and back... as a side effect there were rarely any fat kids ever.
It's estimated that illegal immigrants cost local and federal governments $50-$100 billion in all services provided: health, education, welfare, food stamps, etc.  To give you an idea of what that represents, the total US Department of Education budget is $70 billion.  The point is illegals cost a substantial amount. Also, the local costs are not spread around equally.  Illegals tend to congregate in certain areas so their burden for local governments and taxpayers in those areas can be substantial especially since the illegals don't contribute that much in taxes to offset their costs.  So Americans like me have to pay higher property and state taxes for illegals. 

Of course, my higher taxes may be offset by cheaper gardeners who tend to be Mexican and central Americans.  Don't know how many are illegals.  Also, they make up a big part of restaurant cooks and service people there, and there are some good Mexican restaurants where I live.    So on balance, I personally might not have much to complain about. :)

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4644 on: August 03, 2017, 03:49:13 pm »

Well, it would be the first time Trump apparently gave a damn about any of our norms, historical or otherwise, so there's that.   ;D
Picky.  Picky.  :)

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4645 on: August 03, 2017, 03:52:12 pm »

In blustery call, Trump pressured Mexico on border wall payment
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-idUSKBN1AJ20F

QUOTE  August 3, 2017 / 3:59 PM  "WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump pressured the Mexican president to stop voicing opposition in public to his plan to have Mexico pay for a border wall, according to transcripts of phone calls published on Thursday that gave an insight into Trump's attempts to influence foreign leaders in his first days in office.

The Washington Post published texts of sometimes fraught calls with Mexico's Enrique Pena Nieto and Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull just days after the Republican took office on Jan. 20.

The substance of the calls has previously been reported but the lengthy transcripts reveal Trump, whose first elected office is the presidency, trying to use a mixture of bluster, tough talk and charm as he fully enters the world of diplomacy.

Trump argued with Turnbull over refugees in an acrimonious call on Jan. 28 which the new U.S. president told his counterpart was "unpleasant."

[...]

Trump told the Mexican leader in the call that "if you are going to say that Mexico is not going to pay for the wall, then I do not want to meet with you guys anymore because I cannot live with that,” according to the transcript.

“You cannot say that to the press,” Trump said. "



Seems he hasn't learned much since ... He still thinks that bluster, tough talk, and charm will do it.

Cheers,
Bart
I think Trump promised the Mexican president that if he stops complaining about paying for the wall,  Trump would give him five free rounds at one of his golf courses and a free three night stay at Mar-a-lago. . 

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4646 on: August 03, 2017, 04:55:01 pm »

Oh, and a cha cha with Melania.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4647 on: August 03, 2017, 05:53:44 pm »

It's estimated that illegal immigrants cost local and federal governments $50-$100 billion in all services provided: health, education, welfare, food stamps, etc.  To give you an idea of what that represents, the total US Department of Education budget is $70 billion.  The point is illegals cost a substantial amount. Also, the local costs are not spread around equally.  Illegals tend to congregate in certain areas so their burden for local governments and taxpayers in those areas can be substantial especially since the illegals don't contribute that much in taxes to offset their costs.  So Americans like me have to pay higher property and state taxes for illegals. 

Of course, my higher taxes may be offset by cheaper gardeners who tend to be Mexican and central Americans.  Don't know how many are illegals.  Also, they make up a big part of restaurant cooks and service people there, and there are some good Mexican restaurants where I live.    So on balance, I personally might not have much to complain about. :)

Let's assume that estimate is correct and not fake news, it's still only half the story. Presumably, these people are working at something somewhere, so they contribute to the economy. If your argument is that because they're illegal then they don't pay taxes, i.e., don't pay into that social safety net out of which they draw benefit, then how is that any worse than Trump not paying any tax (assuming his bragging about not doing so is true). If they are living and working in your cities, then they are contributing to the economy by buying food, clothes, cars, paying rent, etc. The consumption of those goods and services IS the economy.

People expend an inordinate amount of emotional energy, it seems to me, worrying about the possible "costs" that illegals cost the system, but are there data showing that they cost the system any more than legal citizens do? How does that compare to the various forms of corporate welfare that the various levels of government pay out to Big Oil, Big Corn, Big Sugar, etc.

How much tax money paid by the avg joe is turned over to the one-percenters who own pro sports franchises when cities and states given them stadiums and other tax holidays based on the confidence game that these places benefit local economies (something that has been fund untrue by every economic analysis ever done)? We like to make fun of corrupt governments in the underdeveloped world, but viewed from a couple of steps back, how is the handing over of tax money to pro sports enterprises anything but corruption? It's theft on a grand scale, imo, although at the same time I have to admire the audacity of the con.
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Robert

scyth

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4648 on: August 03, 2017, 05:54:04 pm »

It's estimated that illegal immigrants cost local and federal governments $50-$100 billion in all services provided: health, education, welfare, food stamps, etc.

by whom and how ? for each $1 that goes towards illegal alien (do not call them immigrants) there are $10+ going to native born idiots like Air Force veteran Nathan Hutsky from  http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/03/pf/college/gi-bill-benefits-for-profit/index.html

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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4649 on: August 03, 2017, 06:00:51 pm »

Now stuff is getting serious...popcorn?

Special Counsel Robert Mueller has impaneled a grand jury for Trump-Russia investigation, and it has already issued subpoenas



Quote
The grand jury is in for the Trump-Russia probe.

Special Counsel Robert Mueller has impaneled a grand jury for his investigation into the Trump campaign’s potential Russia ties, according to a report Thursday. The jury has already issued subpoenas relating to a secret meeting held at Trump Tower last year between Trump campaign associates and a Russian lawyer promising dirt on Hillary Clinton. Mueller’s move indicates his investigation has already taken major steps forward, and that he’s preparing to ramp up the investigative work for a long time coming.

The grand jury in Washington, D.C., started its work several weeks ago and it is likely to continue for months, The Wall Street Journal reported.

Grand juries have the power to subpoena documents, get testimonies under oath and seek indictments if there is evidence of a crime. Mueller's panel shows that he’s anticipating the clout of his probe to intensify. Since grand juries work in secret, little else is known about this latest twist in the inquiry.

But Reuters reported the jury has issued subpoenas over the June 2016 Trump Tower meeting, which was exposed in July.

Trump's special counsel Ty Cobb told the Journal he wasn't even aware of the grand jury. "The White House favors anything that accelerates the conclusion of (Mueller’s) work fairly," Cobb said.

Hum...I wonder if this crosses Trump's "red line"? Fortunately, there's movement afoot to protect Robert Mueller...

Senators propose legislation to protect special counsel from Trump

Quote
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Republican and Democratic senators introduced two pieces of legislation on Thursday seeking to block President Donald Trump from firing the special counsel probing his ties to Russia, as Congress increasingly seeks to assert its authority on policy.

Members of Congress from both parties have expressed concern that Trump might dismiss Robert Mueller, the special counsel appointed to determine whether there was collusion between his 2016 presidential campaign and Moscow.

The Republican president on May 9 fired FBI Director James Comey, who was overseeing the investigation. He also recently criticized his attorney general, Jeff Sessions, for recusing himself from the probe.

With signs that Mueller's investigation is intensifying, members of Congress sought to protect the special counsel, who was appointed on May 17. Two sources familiar with the matter told Reuters on Thursday that Mueller had convened a grand jury in Washington to investigate the allegations of Russian meddling.

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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4650 on: August 03, 2017, 08:40:00 pm »

 
Let's assume that estimate is correct and not fake news, it's still only half the story. Presumably, these people are working at something somewhere, so they contribute to the economy. If your argument is that because they're illegal then they don't pay taxes, i.e., don't pay into that social safety net out of which they draw benefit, then how is that any worse than Trump not paying any tax (assuming his bragging about not doing so is true). If they are living and working in your cities, then they are contributing to the economy by buying food, clothes, cars, paying rent, etc. The consumption of those goods and services IS the economy.

People expend an inordinate amount of emotional energy, it seems to me, worrying about the possible "costs" that illegals cost the system, but are there data showing that they cost the system any more than legal citizens do? How does that compare to the various forms of corporate welfare that the various levels of government pay out to Big Oil, Big Corn, Big Sugar, etc.

How much tax money paid by the avg joe is turned over to the one-percenters who own pro sports franchises when cities and states given them stadiums and other tax holidays based on the confidence game that these places benefit local economies (something that has been fund untrue by every economic analysis ever done)? We like to make fun of corrupt governments in the underdeveloped world, but viewed from a couple of steps back, how is the handing over of tax money to pro sports enterprises anything but corruption? It's theft on a grand scale, imo, although at the same time I have to admire the audacity of the con.

First, you live in Canada.  Who are you to decide how Americans should spend their tax money?  You don't vote nor do you pay Federal or local American taxes.  Second, you are now telling us that we, not you, should provide a safety net for illegals in the same way that we provide one for our citizens. 

I'll tell you what.  Send me a check for $1,000 and I'll see to it that it is earmarked and forwarded to help illegals here in America.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 08:44:06 pm by Alan Klein »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4651 on: August 03, 2017, 08:57:41 pm »

by whom and how ? for each $1 that goes towards illegal alien (do not call them immigrants) there are $10+ going to native born idiots like Air Force veteran Nathan Hutsky from  http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/03/pf/college/gi-bill-benefits-for-profit/index.html


What an idiotic comparison. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4652 on: August 03, 2017, 09:07:55 pm »

So the Republicans gain another governor as the current Democrat governor of W. Virginia changes parties.  He does it at a Trump rally!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/08/03/west-virginias-governor-is-switching-parties-and-democrats-just-hit-a-new-low/#comments

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4653 on: August 03, 2017, 10:08:53 pm »

... Canada has a merit based immigration policy...

Funny, I couldn't collect enough "merit" points to qualify for Canada, back in 2004. I was one point short... I didn't speak French. Never mind that I had no intention to live or work in Montreal or Quebec, never mind that I speak three other languages fluently and two elementary, never mind that I already had an MBA from an American University, resume with four blue-chip multinationals, etc... I wasn't good enough. Had I been a Muslim terrorist, however... Killing an American soldier would probably get me bonus points as well.

Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4654 on: August 03, 2017, 10:13:56 pm »

Funny, I couldn't collect enough "merit" points to qualify for Canada, back in 2004. I was one point short... I didn't speak French. Never mind that I had no intention to live or work in Montreal or Quebec, never mind that I speak three other languages fluently and two elementary, never mind that I already had an MBA from an American University, resume with four blue-chip multinationals, etc... I wasn't good enough. Had I been a Muslim terrorist, however... Killing an American soldier would probably get me bonus points as well.

You just weren't polite enough, Slobo ;-)
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4655 on: August 03, 2017, 10:20:59 pm »

First, you live in Canada.  Who are you to decide how Americans should spend their tax money?  You don't vote nor do you pay Federal or local American taxes.  Second, you are now telling us that we, not you, should provide a safety net for illegals in the same way that we provide one for our citizens. 

I don't understand this response. I am not trying to tell you how Americans should spend their tax money, I was just wondering aloud about some of the concepts we've been discussing.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4656 on: August 03, 2017, 10:28:02 pm »

... How much tax money paid by the avg joe is turned over to the one-percenters who own pro sports franchises when cities and states given them stadiums and other tax holidays based on the confidence game that these places benefit local economies (something that has been fund untrue by every economic analysis ever done)? We like to make fun of corrupt governments in the underdeveloped world, but viewed from a couple of steps back, how is the handing over of tax money to pro sports enterprises anything but corruption? It's theft on a grand scale, imo, although at the same time I have to admire the audacity of the con.

As much as I disagree with your stance on (illegal) immigration, I will agree with you on this one. But the explanation is simple, no matter whose administration it is, Democrat or Republican, they all understand perfectly well why it works on a deeper level (deeper than "benefiting local economies"): panem et circenses.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4657 on: August 03, 2017, 10:29:23 pm »

With that said, Alan is (sort of) correct in noting you are Canadian.  Canada has a merit based immigration policy, which Trump is basing his off of.  Are you actively trying to change your country's policies while also criticizing ours?  Or are you only criticizing ours and fine with leaving yours as is? 

PS, as a photographer, I know for a fact how much of a pain in the ass it is to photograph a project, even a one-off project, in Canada as a USA citizen.  However, Canadian citizens can easily do multiple projects in the States without any issue.

There was a discussion going on about concepts in immigration. What bearing on our discussion are the policies of the Canadian government? (And anyway, I know very little about Canada's immigration processes, having never had to deal with the issue.)

I can't address your second point, except to say that my understanding is that work visas are required for anyone (even Canadians) who plan to work in the US. I have no idea how short-term independent contractors are handled. I've always assumed there was some procedure involved.

But why is my nationality an issue in this discussion all of a sudden? Seems like a non-sequitur to me.
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Robert

Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4658 on: August 03, 2017, 10:31:34 pm »

I don't understand this response. I am not trying to tell you how Americans should spend their tax money, I was just wondering aloud about some of the concepts we've been discussing.

It's the response of someone with their head in the sand who has realised he has no reasonable or logical rebuttal of your point.  He doesn't understand the concept of general discussion and virtually sits there, fingers in his ears, yelling "la la la la la" so he can't hear anything he doesn't like the sound of.  After all, you're a filthy foreigner and you're probably trying to kill him.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #4659 on: August 03, 2017, 10:48:50 pm »

I didn't think I had much of a stance on illegal immigration. A country has the right to keep out people it doesn't want and should do so. I was just questioning some of the emotional rhetoric concerning the current US situation. When you reach the point where you have 13 million illegal aliens/immigrants, who have been there for a while and are probably, in the main, productive members of society, I'm not sure it serves much purpose to demonize them. If the US wants to prevent future illegal immigration, then you should do so, of course. I'm just not convinced that the presence of the ones who are already there is as big a problem as some people think and was just questioning many of the assertions about them.

(And I don't accept the notion that I don't have a right to discuss these issues because I happen to be Canadian. This is a public discussion board, a Canadian one in fact, so if you don't want to hear Canadian opinions, you might be in the wrong place. Just saying.)

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