Pages: 1 ... 176 177 [178] 179 180 ... 331   Go Down

Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 918470 times)

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5339
    • advantica blog
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3540 on: June 13, 2017, 02:38:42 am »

This can happen only in America!
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18092
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3541 on: June 13, 2017, 07:57:11 am »

I was watching this live and I couldn't believe it...I had to back it up and watch it several times. It was just so weird and creepy...

Creepy indeed. I did not have to watch it several times, I noticed it immediately... the cameraman's dig at the President, that is - kept him out of focus the whole time!  :D

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3542 on: June 13, 2017, 08:02:26 am »

Obama did it at the behest of a broad coalition os concerned citizens many who are indigenous BECAUSE the Congress couldn't do it before...The Utah GOP was "close" but couldn't pull the trigger because they couldn't get enough indigenous support.

Ironically, it looks like Bears Ears is going to survive with perhaps a reduced footprint.

Trump Administration Wants To Shrink Bears Ears National Monument

So, it seems the carrot Zinke is extending is more direct indigenous control...we'll see if that is enough.
I hope the right thing is done eventually.  But Obama or any president, by himself,  can't do the "right" thing long term,  regardless of who supports his ideas.  He's one man.  Congress should be involved.  If they refuse to do it, he shouldn't override it.  He's not a king.  That's how he got into trouble.  It'll be how Trump gets into trouble.  Also, future presidents could more easily amend it as you see with what's happening with many of Obama's "laws". 

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3543 on: June 13, 2017, 08:28:14 am »

Hum, I guess you didn't read the fine print huh?

Trump’s Own Tweets Help Kill His Government’s Travel Ban, Again

So, sorry...Trump STILL stepped on his own message by sticking his Tweets in his mouth (instead of his foot).

(they even noted that Sean Spicy Trump's tweets are "official statements")
I was referring to the court's not using Trump's discussion about Muslims and their religion in their decision.  They based their decision on the fact his order violated congressional requirements of immigration.  But your point is well taken.  They appear to have used open discussion before the Order.  I think that's a bad idea.  Many things are discussed and said in open debate.  Many things would be unconstitutional if included in a law.  But if they are stripped out, and the law is constitutional as written, then the law should stand.  It's the law that's implemented, not what people said beforehand in open debate.  I think that kind of thing puts a chilling effect on free speech.

For example, let's say during discussion about penalties for illegal immigration, the leader of the senate or the president says, "We should kill illegals who sneak into our country."  The president and the senate leader come to their senses and the law is passed giving two years in jail for illegal immigration, a reasonable penalty.  So an illegal takes the law to court and claims the president and leader of the senate really were doing it because they hated illegals and wanted to kill them.  Well, then the courts would overturn the law based on what was said, not what was written.  People should be allowed to say what they want.  Free speech and open political debate should not be restricted.  Only unconstitutional law as written should be overturned.  Only the effect of the law should be considered.

I didn't read the whole decision, but it seems the court decided n this case that the president has to have a reason to write this Executive Order to show it comports with previous congressional law.  The arguments Trump gave in tweets and elsewhere were not valid according to the court.  So there is some weight to using discussions previous to writing the law, but the action of the law itself, I believe, was seen as valid by the courts.  But yes I have to agree with you that they did use facts outside of the Order itself. 

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3544 on: June 13, 2017, 08:36:15 am »

I was watching this live and I couldn't believe it...I had to back it up and watch it several times. It was just so weird and creepy...

Trump Invites His Employees To Praise Him During Cabinet Meeting



BIG TIME ICKY!!!

But the worse butt kissing was by Reince Priebus:

Pompeo got the biggest laughs...

The best meme of butt kissing parody had to be Chuck Schumer‏'s tweet


Butt wait, there's more. CNN just posted a quote by quote breakdown of the Cabinet members...

Donald Trump's Cabinet members, ranked by their over-the-top praise of Trump

Spoiler alert! It was Pence who won with this full quote:

I didn't watch it.  But if it like what you said, that's classic un-classsy, ego-driven Trump.  He must have just watched a newsreel of Saddam Hussein with his minions.  We all know a president's cabinet all kiss his ass, but we don't need to see a public display of it. Yeach.

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18092
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3545 on: June 13, 2017, 09:53:23 am »

Well, at no point Trump asked for it, at least not during the meeting.

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3546 on: June 13, 2017, 10:02:53 am »

Well, at no point Trump asked for it, at least not during the meeting.
Fake news?

DeanChriss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 592
    • http://www.dmcphoto.com
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3547 on: June 13, 2017, 10:11:23 am »

...
Let Congress do the investigation.

You can't possibly believe that's viable. It will be a cold day in heck when a GOP Congress finds any wrongdoing on the part of a GOP President. That's just how it is and always has been. Do you think Clinton would have been investigated endlessly and impeached if Democrats controlled the House and Senate? If so I think you need a dose of reality.

...
Let Congress representing the people decide.
...

Congress listens to lobbyists representing corporations that donate millions to political campaigns in the form of television ads and the like. To a large extent they determine who gets elected because people are generally apathetic and uninformed. Just over half of all eligible voters even bother to vote. I'd hate to guess how many of those have reasonably unbiased information regarding the issues. Thomas Jefferson wrote that a well-informed electorate is a prerequisite to democracy and we absolutely do not have that today. Advertising shapes what people believe and plays a huge role in determining election outcomes. Politicians know that. This is how laws favoring certain prescription drugs over others in spite of medical opinion to the contrary get written, for instance. Ordinary citizens hold little influence until they organize in massive numbers around hot-button issues.
Logged
- Dean

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3548 on: June 13, 2017, 10:33:27 am »

You can't possibly believe that's viable. It will be a cold day in heck when a GOP Congress finds any wrongdoing on the part of a GOP President. That's just how it is and always has been. Do you think Clinton would have been investigated endlessly and impeached if Democrats controlled the House and Senate? If so I think you need a dose of reality.

Congress listens to lobbyists representing corporations that donate millions to political campaigns in the form of television ads and the like. To a large extent they determine who gets elected because people are generally apathetic and uninformed. Just over half of all eligible voters even bother to vote. I'd hate to guess how many of those have reasonably unbiased information regarding the issues. Thomas Jefferson wrote that a well-informed electorate is a prerequisite to democracy and we absolutely do not have that today. Advertising shapes what people believe and plays a huge role in determining election outcomes. Politicians know that. This is how laws favoring certain prescription drugs over others in spite of medical opinion to the contrary get written, for instance. Ordinary citizens hold little influence until they organize in massive numbers around hot-button issues.
Congress investigates all sorts of things.  The IRA scandal, Hillary's emails, etc.  Enough information usually comes out that the voters can decide in the next election how it influenced them and vote accordingly.  And it effects congressional elections as well.  Look how the democrats lost the House and Senate because of Obama?   But remember, the constitution provides for Congress to impeach for high crimes and misdemeanors.  Is it political?  Of course.  Nixon, a Republican,  would never had resigned if the Republicans were in charge of congress at the time.  And Democrat Clinton would not have been impeached if the House was not Republican. 

Your solution on the problems of congressional failings seems to want to throw the baby out with the bath water.  What would you substitute Congress with?  What would you do about voting?  Eliminate it?  I agree with you that the public is not informed or maybe often misinformed by a biased press.  But again, what are the alternatives?  I believe that in the end, the voters eventually get it and vote in a government they want. 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8914
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3549 on: June 13, 2017, 12:12:05 pm »

Free speech and open political debate should not be restricted.

While I agree in principle, what many people do not grasp is that with freedom of speech, comes an obligation (of not abusing that right).

Quote
Only unconstitutional law as written should be overturned.
 

Which is what the legal system is for (execute laws that by definition are constitutional, otherwise they should not be laws), and why it is so wrong to politicize it. When I hear people talking about a Republican Judge or a Democratic Judge, I have to suppress the tendency to puke. The Law is impartial and unbiased, at least in my country. A system that appoints on the basis of political affiliation is flawed to begin with, and see the mess that it produces.

Quote
Only the effect of the law should be considered.

And discrimination (e.g. on the basis of 'country of origin' or religion) is not constitutional in a real (parliamentary) democracy.

Çheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8914
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3550 on: June 13, 2017, 12:14:59 pm »

Well, at no point Trump asked for it, at least not during the meeting.

Well, maybe not during the meeting, he only 'hopes' and otherwise one gets fired ...

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8914
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3551 on: June 13, 2017, 12:36:27 pm »

No cause to fire special counsel Mueller: deputy attorney general
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-rosenstein-idUSKBN194206

"The No. 2 official at the U.S. Justice Department on Tuesday told Congress the special counsel investigating Russia's alleged interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election and possible collusion with the Trump campaign is going to have "the full degree of independence" he needs.

"Director Mueller is going to have the full degree of independence that he needs to conduct that investigation appropriately," Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein told a Senate appropriations subcommittee, referring to special counsel Robert Mueller.

Rosenstein, who has the sole ability to fire Mueller given that Attorney General Jeff Sessions has recused himself from matters relating to the investigation, told the panel he had seen no evidence of good cause for letting Mueller go and that he would not follow any theoretical order to fire him absent such evidence."


So all that can be done is to fabricate new evidence if the investigation uncovers too much bad stuff. People like Comey made sure to leave a trail of unclassified breadcrumbs to reduce the chance of that happening, as Mueller probably also does. So also expect talks to be recorded from now on (probably already happening), as evidence.

We're unlikely to hear more from Trump's recordings or 'tapes' unless the evidence was destroyed which would create a new issue.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3552 on: June 13, 2017, 04:48:38 pm »

While I agree in principle, what many people do not grasp is that with freedom of speech, comes an obligation (of not abusing that right).
 

Which is what the legal system is for (execute laws that by definition are constitutional, otherwise they should not be laws), and why it is so wrong to politicize it. When I hear people talking about a Republican Judge or a Democratic Judge, I have to suppress the tendency to puke. The Law is impartial and unbiased, at least in my country. A system that appoints on the basis of political affiliation is flawed to begin with, and see the mess that it produces.

And discrimination (e.g. on the basis of 'country of origin' or religion) is not constitutional in a real (parliamentary) democracy.

Çheers,
Bart
1.  What is the obligation people have regarding freedom of speech that you are referring too?  Is that freedom different between the regular public and members of a legislative body?  I think it's stricter in Europe.  In France for example, laws prevent Muslim women from wearing a hijab.  That is unconstitutional in America as it denies expression and is a form of free speech. Again in France, you cannot say good things about the Nazis or support a denial position of the Holocaust.  I believe you have similar rules against hate speech in the Netherlands.   Those rules would be unconstitutional in America as well.  The Constitution in America and the Supreme Court have consistently rules in favor of as free speech as possible other than things like yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre when there is no fire and causing a panic or an immediate incitement to riot.   
2. Appointments are not made on the basis of political beliefs but rather constitutional beliefs which may or may not reflect the candidates particular party. They may not be in a party anyway.    Of course, selection is often wrong because the justices turn out to change their minds.  How do the Dutch assure selection is not effected by what a person believes?  It seems like you're asking too much from politicians.
3. Congress has decided in law that immigration should not be based on national origin.  But I don't think that limits the Presidents  right to block certain immigrants in case of emergency.  For example, you wouldn't expect German or Japanese Nationals to be allowed to enter or immigrate to the US during WWII.  As one Supreme Court justice once stated, "The US Constitution isn't a suicide pact."  We have a right to protect ourselves.

The rules for congressman and senators are even less restricted due to the constitution giving them the authority to write law.  An open debate and free speech is paramount to discuss call issues and possibilities before law is drafted, on eof the reason I feel Trump's comments regaridn his Executive Order should have no effect on courts.

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5339
    • advantica blog
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3553 on: June 13, 2017, 05:03:07 pm »

1.  What is the obligation people have regarding freedom of speech that you are referring too?  Is that freedom different between the regular public and members of a legislative body?  I think it's stricter in Europe.  In France for example, laws prevent Muslim women from wearing a hijab.  That is unconstitutional in America as it denies expression and is a form of free speech. Again in France, you cannot say good things about the Nazis or support a denial position of the Holocaust.  I believe you have similar rules against hate speech in the Netherlands.   Those rules would be unconstitutional in America as well.  The Constitution in America and the Supreme Court have consistently rules in favor of as free speech as possible other than things like yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre when there is no fire and causing a panic or an immediate incitement to riot.   
2. Appointments are not made on the basis of political beliefs but rather constitutional beliefs which may or may not reflect the candidates particular party. They may not be in a party anyway.    Of course, selection is often wrong because the justices turn out to change their minds.  How do the Dutch assure selection is not effected by what a person believes?  It seems like you're asking too much from politicians.
3. Congress has decided in law that immigration should not be based on national origin.  But I don't think that limits the Presidents  right to block certain immigrants in case of emergency.  For example, you wouldn't expect German or Japanese Nationals to be allowed to enter or immigrate to the US during WWII.  As one Supreme Court justice once stated, "The US Constitution isn't a suicide pact."  We have a right to protect ourselves.

The rules for congressman and senators are even less restricted due to the constitution giving them the authority to write law.  An open debate and free speech is paramount to discuss call issues and possibilities before law is drafted, on eof the reason I feel Trump's comments regaridn his Executive Order should have no effect on courts.

Firstly, there were no good Nazi things, and why would anyone in sound mind deny Holocaust?
Logged

Farmer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2848
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3554 on: June 13, 2017, 06:09:08 pm »

Fake news?

It was a live broadcast.  If it's fake, blame the "actors" (i.e. the cabinet and Trump).
Logged
Phil Brown

Farmer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2848
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3555 on: June 13, 2017, 06:09:43 pm »

Congress investigates all sorts of things.  The IRA scandal, Hillary's emails, etc.  Enough information usually comes out that the voters can decide in the next election how it influenced them and vote accordingly. 

That's fine, but when you're talking about possible legal issues, you need a legal investigation, not political.
Logged
Phil Brown

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3556 on: June 13, 2017, 07:05:10 pm »

That's fine, but when you're talking about possible legal issues, you need a legal investigation, not political.
Don't kid yourself.  It's all politics.

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3557 on: June 13, 2017, 07:08:34 pm »

Les, in America, you can believe what you want to believe.    That's why people always want to come here.  It's what makes America, America.

DeanChriss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 592
    • http://www.dmcphoto.com
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3558 on: June 13, 2017, 07:59:50 pm »

...
Your solution on the problems of congressional failings seems to want to throw the baby out with the bath water.  What would you substitute Congress with?  What would you do about voting?  Eliminate it?  I agree with you that the public is not informed or maybe often misinformed by a biased press.  But again, what are the alternatives?  I believe that in the end, the voters eventually get it and vote in a government they want.

I didn't offer a solution and I sincerely do not think there is one. We have an ill-informed and extremely divided electorate of which barely half even bother to vote, news organizations that are only extensions of political parties, an extremist President who IMO is incompetent and also seems to want the U.S. to become an autocracy, a fan base who wouldn't mind if that happened, and a Congress that is showing zero leadership and just follows along. This seems to have disenfranchised even moderate Republicans and certainly anyone left of that. This extremist bent seemed to really take hold in the days when Newt Gingrich was Speaker of the House, though perhaps it started earlier than that. It has only gotten progressively worse, and the only way it will get better is if the electorate magically becomes educated. That won't happen in my lifetime. America is rapidly becoming a much less desirable place.
Logged
- Dean

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5339
    • advantica blog
Re: Trump II
« Reply #3559 on: June 13, 2017, 08:14:06 pm »

Les, in America, you can believe what you want to believe.    That's why people always want to come here.  It's what makes America, America.

Not a good answer, Alan
But since I've been dealt this card, I concur, that some people believe what they want to believe. Even Trump's lies and BS.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 176 177 [178] 179 180 ... 331   Go Up