Trump II

[Schewe]

Hey Jeff:  It's really tiring of you accusing Trump being Hitler.

Actually that was the Pope who was warning about populist leaders being like Hitler. And you were the the one that called Trump a populist leader who was like a plauge (which I agree with) on both of their houses...

So was Hitler a populist leader in Germany? Did Trump run as a popular leader? So, is the Pope right to warn the US and Europe of the dangers of populist leaders? Hey it was Time magazine the put Trump and Hitler on the cover- which trump likes to brag about (being on the cover-not beong compared to Hitler) although it seems Hitler's book Mein Kampf used sit on his nite stand according to one if his exwives...

[LesPalenik]

It's hard to make a comparison between Trump and Hitler. However, there are some similarities between people who voted for Hitler, Trump and Erdogan.

[Schewe]

Jeff, really, it is kind of ridiculous when someone is compared to Hitler, whether it be the many times Trump has been, or when HRC was, or even when Obama was compared to him, and those whom not only agree with this but also propagate it are being ridiculous as well.

Take it up with the pope...(did you even read the interview I link to? Pope Francis: “The danger is that in times of crisis we look for a savior”)

On Donald Trump, the Pontiff says: “I don’t like to get ahead of myself. It would be like prophets predicting calamities or windfalls that will not come to pass”

On Friday, just as Donald Trump was being sworn into office in Washington DC, Pope Francis was granting EL PAÍS a long interview at the Vatican, during which he called for prudence in the face of widespread alarm over the new US president.

For an hour and 15 minutes, inside a modest room in Casa de Santa Marta, where he lives, Jorge Mario Bergoglio, who was born in Buenos Aires 80 years ago and is on his way to completing his fourth year as Pontiff, explained that “in the Church there are saints and sinners, decent men and corrupt men,” but that what worries him the most is “a Church that has been anesthetized by mundanity,” one that is far removed from the problems of the people.

--snip--

As for what worries me about the world, it is war. We already have a World War III in little bits and pieces. Lately there is talk of a possible nuclear war, as though it were a card game: they are playing cards. That is my biggest concern. I am worried about the economic inequalities in the world: the fact that a small group of humans has over 80% of the world's wealth, with all its implications for the liquid economy, which at its center has money as a god, instead of men and women. Hence the throwaway culture.

Q. Your Holiness, going back to the global problems you just mentioned, Donald Trump is just now being sworn in as president of the United States, and the whole world is tense because of it. What do you make of it?

A. I think that we must wait and see. I don’t like to get ahead of myself, nor to judge people prematurely. We will see how he acts, what he does, and then I will form an opinion. But being afraid or rejoicing beforehand because of something that might happen is, in my view, quite unwise. It would be like prophets predicting calamities or windfalls that will not come to pass. We will see what he does and will judge accordingly. Always work with the specific. Christianity is either specific or it is not Christianity.

--snip--

Q. Both in Europe and in America, the repercussions of the crisis that never ends, the growing inequalities, the absence of a strong leadership are giving way to political groups that reflect on the citizens' malaise. Some of them —the so-called anti-system or populists— capitalize on the fears of an uncertain future in order to form a message full of xenophobia and hatred towards foreigners. Trump's case is the most noteworthy, but there are others such as Austria or Switzerland. Are you worried about this trend?

A. That is what they call populism here. It is an equivocal term, because in Latin America populism has another meaning. In Latin America, it means that the people —for instance, people's movements— are the protagonists. They are self-organized. When I started to hear about populism in Europe I didn't know what to make of it, until I realized that it had different meanings. Crises provoke fear, alarm.

In my opinion, the most obvious example of populism in the European sense of the word is Germany in 1933. After [Paul von] Hindenburg, after the crisis of 1930, Germany is broken, it needs to get up, to find its identity, it needs a leader, someone capable of restoring its character, and there is a young man named Adolf Hitler who says: "I can, I can". And Germans vote for Hitler. Hitler didn't steal power, his people voted for him, and then he destroyed his people. That is the risk. In times of crisis we lack judgment, and that is a constant reference for me. Let's look for a savior who gives us back our identity and let us defend ourselves with walls, barbed-wire, whatever, from other people who may rob us of our identity. And that is a very serious thing. That is why I always try to say: talk among yourselves, talk to one another. But the case of Germany in 1933 is typical, a people who were immersed in a crisis, who were searching for their identity until this charismatic leader came and promised to give their identity back, and he gave them a distorted identity, and we all know what happened. Where there is no conversation...

Can borders be controlled? Yes, each country has the right to control its borders, who comes in and who goes out, and those countries at risk —from terrorism or such things— have even more of a right to control them, but no country has the right to deprive its citizens of the possibility to talk with their neighbors.

Q. Do you see, Holy Father, any sign of 1933 Germany in today's Europe?

A. I am no expert, but, with regard to today's Europe, let me refer you to three speeches I have made,  two in Strasbourg and the third one on the occasion of the Charlemagne prize, the only award I have accepted because they insisted a lot due to the situation Europe was in, and I accepted it as a service. Those three speeches contain what I think about Europe.

Pope's speech in 2014 Francis Goes to Strasbourg: Full Text of Pope's Speech to European Parliament and receiving the Charlemagne Prize on 2016-05-06: Pope Francis' Full Speech

Read the Pope's speeches to understand where he's coming from. This Guardian gives the UK view: Pope Francis castigates Europe in speech on solidarity

Europe is struggling to live up to the vision of its founders, Pope Francis has said in a powerful speech that asked: “What has happened to you, the Europe of humanism, the champion of human rights, democracy and freedom?”

Speaking as he became the first pope to accept the prestigious Charlemagne prize for his work on behalf of European solidarity, the pontiff called for Europe to reclaim the principles that had been established after the second world war, above all by embracing integration and revamping its economic model to “benefit ordinary people and society as a whole”.

His remarks reflected a concern that Europe is coming apart at the seams: from the unwillingness by some countries to deal with the refugee crisis, to the rise in populist and xenophobic political parties, to economic and immigration concerns fuelling the ‘leave’ campaign ahead of next month’s referendum in the UK.

Then Brexit happened...then Trump happened...

And you are telling me to NOT look at what happened in 1933 Germany and to NOT be worried the same thing could happen here in 2017? That a Trump/Hitler comparison is "kind of ridiculous". Seems the Pope didn't think it ridiculous, huh?

[Schewe]

Meanwhile, back in DC, the Trump admin keeps bumbling along...

Under Fire: White House Staff Claims See-Through Fence, Levee Flood Protection System Is a ‘Border Wall’

President Donald Trump’s White House communications team is claiming inaccurately that there is border wall funding in the spending bill before Congress right now. The move comes as the administration is facing political heat for the failure to obtain federal appropriations in the new omnibus spending bill to pay for the construction of a border wall, as President Trump promised on the campaign trail.

The latest controversy began with White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer Tweeting out photos of a levee wall along the border and see-through border fence that illegal aliens and drug and human traffickers regularly cut through. Spicer argued, without calling any of them a “wall” like the one Trump promised on the campaign trail, that the president “just negotiated a spending deal where we can build these.” He explicitly did not call the photos a “border wall” on his Twitter account.

--snip--

Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said this week that President Trump himself, and the White House overall, were not very involved in working on this bill—and that congressional Republicans took the lead, hence the Democrat wins and GOP failures. Schumer also advocated that Trump stay out of the next funding bill battle ahead of September, almost goading the president into a budget war. That is Trump’s next big test: Can he, now that he is familiar with the levers of power, successfully negotiate payment for a border wall in the next spending bill? Or can he find another way to get it done? Next time around, with the midterms looming, he may pay a steep price for politically outsourcing these projects to Capitol Hill leadership like Ryan—people who have a proven track record of failing him—or to staff who have repeatedly dropped the ball.

“The presidency has receded,” one senior GOP congressional aide told Breitbart News. “I’ve never seen anything like it. The administration is not involved in major discussions anymore. It’s President Ryan and quasi-Speaker Mark Meadows leading the way on major negotiations.”

Scary as it sounds (cause I like next door toe Wisconsin and can feel their pain), "President Ryan" sounds better than "President Trump".

[pegelli]

Jeff, I don't like Trump one bit more then you do but a comparison with Hitler is uncalled for and ridiculous.

Even the Pope didn't say that, he said the situation in Germany 1933 is comparable in some ways to what's happening now, but he never accused anybody (incl. Trump) to act like Hitler has done. You only weaken your case by making such ill thought through comparisons. And since I support your case in general I think that's a pity.

[Alan Klein]

Actually that was the Pope who was warning about populist leaders being like Hitler. And you were the the one that called Trump a populist leader who was like a plauge (which I agree with) on both of their houses...

So was Hitler a populist leader in Germany? Did Trump run as a popular leader? So, is the Pope right to warn the US and Europe of the dangers of populist leaders? Hey it was Time magazine the put Trump and Hitler on the cover- which trump likes to brag about (being on the cover-not beong compared to Hitler) although it seems Hitler's book Mein Kampf used sit on his nite stand according to one if his exwives...

The Pope never said Trump was Hitler. Neither did I.  But, you did.   There are many popular leaders.  Bernie Sanders, an Independent,  ran as one as well.  Your excuses accusing Time and the Pope don't fly. You're vile and venom is just over-the-top.  Frankly, by taking this extreme position you just add to the belief of many normal Americans that the left is bonkers and totally unreasonable.  They are the dangerous ones who shut down open debate like what happened in Berkeley, riot, and are the real miscreants.  Keep it up.  It just helps Republicans and Trump.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...Seems the Pope didn't think it ridiculous, huh?

Funny... one populist leader, in conflict with his own party church's establishment on many traditional issues, criticizes another populist in conflict with his party's establishment and traditional principles.

[Otto Phocus]

Jeff, I don't like Trump one bit more then you do but a comparison with Hitler is uncalled for and ridiculous.

I agree.  There is enough to criticize Trump about without devolving down to "Hitler" comparisons.

But then I was told that Bush jr. was like Hitler.  After that I was told that Obama was like Hitler.  Now I am being told that Trump is like Hitler.  Pretty sure I will be told that the next president will be "like Hitler" too.

We, as a nation seem to like electing people "like Hitler" I guess.   

Pretty sad when the US has more leaders like Hitler than Germany ever did.   

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

There you go, not only Russia

"Theresa May accuses EU of trying to affect UK election"

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39787353

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

"How Hillary Clinton's attacks are helping President Trump"

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/03/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton/index.html?sr=fbpol050317twitter-bots-donald-trump-hillary-clinton0602PMVODtopLink&linkId=37153284

Ninety-six percent of Trump voters said it was the right thing to do while just 2% said they regretted their vote in an April Washington Post-ABC News poll. That same poll showed that 96% of the people who voted for Trump said they would vote for him again; 85% of Clinton voters said they would cast a ballot for her again. (A Fox News poll produced similar results.)

[James Clark]

"How Hillary Clinton's attacks are helping President Trump"

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/03/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton/index.html?sr=fbpol050317twitter-bots-donald-trump-hillary-clinton0602PMVODtopLink&linkId=37153284

Yeah - people hate Hillary.  I don't really get it, especially when comparing to Trump, who embodies literally every criticism one can make of her, and is an unmitigated wanker to boot, but the facts are the facts.  Horrid as a candidate, even though she likely would have been an effective president.

[Schewe]

The Pope never said Trump was Hitler. Neither did I.  But, you did.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I didn't either. I asked a rhetorical question if by you saying about Trump, "He's a populist, kind of a "plague on both their houses" kind of politician" was that "sorta like Hitler, right?"

You may have been offended by my asking the question but it was a question, is Trump a populist leader in the mold of Hitler in 1932/33? Yes I would say so and even the Pope said so (he hasn't been the only one to draw the comparison BTW).

As for the covers, well that's an old story relating to the controversy of the Time cover and whether it was intentionally a play off a previous Hitler cover. Pretty sure I mentioned this before Time Magazine accused of giving Donald Trump devil horns and likening him to Hitler with Person of the Year cover

Time Magazine has been accused of giving Donald Trump horns and likening him to Hitler with its person of the year cover.

The magazine named the President-elect as its person of the year on Wednesday and published a portrait photo of Trump on the cover.

But the internet was quick to criticize the cover image with many suggesting the magazine subtly portrayed Trump as the devil.

Others drew similarities between Trump's image and a cover shot of Adolf Hitler.

Well, pretty sure if Time did that, it was exhibiting a much more devious behavior that Time normally shows. Now, if you want to maybe give credit where credit might be due, Nadav Kander was the photographer of the cover. There's a story about it in Time: Behind TIME's Donald Trump Person of the Year Cover. But you can deep dive a bit on Kander: Meet the Jewish Photographer Behind Donald Trump’s ‘Subversive’ Time Cover

So, was Time guilty of "comparing Trump to Hitler"?

Then I mention the Pope and his discussion about populist leaders and going back to 1930's Germany and the rise of Hitler. But apparently that is verboten because quoting the Pope talking about Hitler somehow "diminishing the infamy of Hitler"?

Yeah, I don't think so...in fact I think the opposite is true...and so does this Yale professor, Timothy Snyder: Yale history professor: Here’s why it's useful to compare Trump's actions to Hitler's

Timothy Snyder is the author of "On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century" and the Levin professor of history at Yale University. Snyder explains how comparing Trump to Hitler can be useful despite the differences. Following is a transcript of the video.

TIMOTHY SNYDER: So the way to start the discussion about comparisons is to point out that Americans are extremely lazy about history. I mean that's one way in which were definitely number one among major nations. And one of the ways we’re lazy about history is that as soon as anyone suggests that the past might be useful, then we say “but wait it's not exactly the same and therefore I'm just going to discard it.” In that way in two or three seconds we give ourselves an excuse not to think about history.

The premise of the book "On Tyranny" is not that Hitler is just like Trump or Trump is just like Hitler. The premise is that democratic republics usually fail and it's useful for us to see how they fail. One of the ways a democratic republic can fail is Germany in 1933. There are plenty of other examples in the book, also from the left wing Czechoslovakia in 1948 becoming communist. The point of the book is that these things really happened over and over again and that intelligent people, no less intelligent than us, experienced them and left a record for us to learn from. So what I'm trying to do in the book is to help us to learn from that record so we don't have events like Germany in 1933 or Czechoslovakia in 1948. Just saying “Hitler's not like Trump" or "Trump is not like Hitler” isn't going to save us. Learning for the past though, could.

So, yes, I reject any rule that comparing Hitler to Trump or visa versa isn't allowed because THAT my friends is an attack on free speech...

Frankly, by taking this extreme position you just add to the belief of many normal Americans that the left is bonkers and totally unreasonable.  They are the dangerous ones who shut down open debate like what happened in Berkeley, riot, and are the real miscreants.

Does anybody else see the hypocrisy in the above statement? So, just because a position is extreme it means the position holder is "bonkers and totally unreasonable" and that these "dangerous ones who shut down open debate like what happened in Berkeley, riot, and are the real miscreants.".

Pot calling the kettle black much? Who's trying to shut down open debate?

Hey, I was all for having Milo Yiannopoulos speak at Berkeley and I was all for peaceful protest...I'm a child of the 60's and in the past I've done a lot of peaceful protesting. I even marched peacefully in the Science March. I'm not down on violence and trying to take away somebody else's right to free speech. Ann Colter? Bring the blonde bimbo on! The ladies of The View successfully gutted her...White Supremacist Richard Spencer at Texas A&M? Sure...and be sure to schedule an adequate counter speaker, maybe somebody like Bill Maher could take him down (in a peaceful verbal sort of way).

Actually I enjoyed watching Milo Yiannopoulos squirm on Bill Maher's show and that was BEFORE the pedaphilia drove him out of the public eye...

So, if somebody was offended I posted text and/or images that compared Trump's behavior and rhetoric to Hitler in the early 1930's I'm sorry, it was not my intent to offend...it was my intent to express my utter contempt of Trump, his behavior and his divisive, xenophobic and misogynistic rhetoric. It was my intent to point out the real risk to the United States and our democracy if this big orange clown drags us down like Hitler dragged down Germany when he was appointed as Chancellor on 30 January 1933, in a coalition arrangement between the Nazis and the Nationalist-Conservatives. Yeah, I know it's trite but the quote from George Santayana "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it".

Trump is president, but he's also very dangerous. It took him a long time to denounce the KKK and David Duke. White Supremacist Richard Spencer was yelling ‘Hail Trump! Hail our people!’ as conference attendants perform Nazi salutes in this video: Hail Trump. Hail our people. Hail victory!. He has been very luke warm in his condemnation of anti-Jewish or Muslim violence. Hell, his "America First" catchphrase has a disturbing history: President Trump’s ‘America First’ slogan was popularized by Nazi sympathizers. Add to that the anti immigrant rhetoric and his history of claiming Obama wasn't born in America, all of which act as dog whistles to neo-nazi and white supremacist and you wonder why there are comparisons between Trump and Hitler?

So, I'm sorry anybody was offended but I don't apologize for my positions or my posts...

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...xenophobic and misogynistic rhetoric...Add to that the anti immigrant rhetoric...

I have not heard anything xenophobic, misogynistic or anti-immigrant. I did hear anti ILLEGAL immigration rhetoric. Big difference.

[Schewe]

You talking as a candidate or as president?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

You talking as a candidate or as president?

Both.

[James Clark]

I have not heard anything xenophobic, misogynistic or anti-immigrant. I did hear anti ILLEGAL immigration rhetoric. Big difference.

Ridiculous.  Insulting Fiorina's appearance, the "pussy grabbing" comments, the comments about "just kissing" women and "...moving on [her] like a bitch.."  The assertion that Gonzalo Curiel (born in Indiana) couldn't adjudicate a case objectively because of his hispanic heritage, his musings that Ghazala Khan wasn't allowed a voice because she and her husband are Muslim - the list is practically without end.

Look - I'm not going to argue that every Trump voter is a racist, a misogynist or a xenophobe, but if you don't see the messaging there that, at a minimum, attracted racists, xenophobes and, er... "traditional values" voters, you've almost got to be making a deliberate effort to ignore it. 

[Farmer]

http://www.theoatmeal.com/comics/believe

I would encourage everyone to read this all the way to the end.

[James Clark]

http://www.theoatmeal.com/comics/believe

I would encourage everyone to read this all the way to the end.

Nice.   

[rodney.dugmore]

It's hard to make a comparison between Trump and Hitler. However, there are some similarities between people who voted for Hitler, Trump and Erdogan.

Trump isn't Hitler - But he sure has many similarities that should concern clear thinking people! After all not all Germans who supported Hitler were antisemitic.
We hope that the american political system will not allow him to assume dictatorial powers like Hitler, or you will discover how much like him he really is!

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Ridiculous.  Insulting Fiorina's appearance, the "pussy grabbing" comments, the comments about "just kissing" women and "...moving on [her] like a bitch.."  The assertion that Gonzalo Curiel (born in Indiana) couldn't adjudicate a case objectively because of his hispanic heritage, his musings that Ghazala Khan wasn't allowed a voice because she and her husband are Muslim - the list is practically without end...

Ridiculous indeed. None of that fits the description. Just fabricated accusations. Try to explain just how are those things misogyny, racism or whatever. If anything, he likes women. Beautiful ones in particular, just like most of humanity, throughout history.