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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 918088 times)

JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1840 on: March 27, 2017, 02:48:16 pm »

Joe, read TR Reid's wonderful book, "The Healing of America."  Reid is now Rocky Mountain bureau chief for the Washington Post but served as a foreign correspondent in multiple countries during his tenure at the Post.  He and his family were covered under the local healthcare authorities in each of those countries and he describes those experiences as well as others in his efforts to better understand how the foreign healthcare agencies work as well as what the prognosis might be for his ailing shoulder that was a result of an injury suffered many years ago (I won't spoil it but the best treatment he received was in the strangest of the countries he visited).  Did you know that Germany has about 200 health insurance cooperatives; that the Swiss decided to extend healthcare to all citizens the same year that Clintoncare crashed and burned; that the Canadians are reasonably happy with their provincial model of coverage.  Do read the book, it takes only a couple of hours and you will quickly realize that this country can and should do better.

Why we tolerate high infant mortality rates and lessor life expectancy for those who reach 60 (this weeds out all the homicide and traffic accident victims) compared to other countries is beyond me.  Also, don't think every other country takes the same approach or that it's socialized medicine; they don't and it isn't.

I'll try and check it out. 

However, what I see from the left is single payer and socialized healthcare.  I would prefer to see private enterprise continue to be a part of the process just because competition leads to better quality.  Also, streamlining the payment process would be great too, but with government nothing ever seems to be streamlined. 

It's funny, NYC passed a law that states all private business must pay freelancers within 30 days, or the freelancers can automatically sue for interest and lawyer fees.  I am at about 75 days past due with the City on a 5 figure invoice and there is nothing I can do but wait; just goes to my point. 
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1841 on: March 27, 2017, 03:12:44 pm »

 

  Also, streamlining the payment process would be great too, but with government nothing ever seems to be streamlined. 

I've been on Medicare for four years now and believe me there are zero hassles other than our premiums are high because Part B is means tested and we still are earning too much money (good position to be in).  With BlueCross, almost 1/4 of the claims required a phone call to question decisions.  Now I just show my Medicare card and everything is taken care of.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1842 on: March 27, 2017, 03:26:39 pm »

Peter, it seems we have vastly different definitions of socialism.

Many Americans point to Canada as a socialistic country, yet we are far from your apparent definition of it.
Are there not degrees of socialism?
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1843 on: March 27, 2017, 03:29:53 pm »

I've been on Medicare for four years now and believe me there are zero hassles other than our premiums are high because Part B is means tested and we still are earning too much money (good position to be in).  With BlueCross, almost 1/4 of the claims required a phone call to question decisions.  Now I just show my Medicare card and everything is taken care of.

I did not mean for you, but for your medical provider.  How much of a hassle do they have to go through to get paid. 

Personally though, I don't know how we get rid of the hassle while having a middle man, whether it be government or insurance. 

Ron Paul made a point that he practiced medicine before insurance and it worked fine, but then again healthcare was much cheaper (and less modern) then too. 
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 03:58:41 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1844 on: March 27, 2017, 03:37:32 pm »

Bart, I am not sure how you interrupted my quote, but I meant it as maybe I am spending too much time looking at this thread as opposed to getting work down.

Then I misinterpreted.

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I am sure you know as someone else who works for yourself how easy it is to get distracted when you're the boss.
 

Yes.

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But anyway, I do agree there is a good deal if irony there.

We'll have to wait and see if he really does it there, and what the people think of that ...

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. And then there's this; Senators press Icahn on White House influence, business conflicts:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-biofuels-icahn-trump-idUSKBN16Y2D4
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 04:00:58 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1845 on: March 27, 2017, 03:43:48 pm »

How fitting to end your post with a communist slogan.

That's pretty funny Slobodan...the image you pointed to is actually on www.redbubble.com as a teeshirt design.



The reason it's funny is you think it's a "communist slogan" except, it's not. Lenin never said that...

It is however, a John Lennon song released in 1971. Maybe you got Lenin and Lennon mixed up?

It's somewhat suspect that a line like that, giving the power to the people is suspected of being communist propaganda . I also find it a bit ironic that it was President Donald J. Trump who in his inaugural speach promised to take the power from the Washington elite and return it to the people, and he stressed that his priority will be to put the U.S. ahead of other nations. Communist propaganda?

It's also funny that Trump has picked a a phrase "America First" which was the motto of Nazi-friendly Americans in the 1930s, and Trump has more than just a catchphrase in common with them. Read about it in the #FAKENEWS Washington Post Donald Trump’s new favorite slogan was invented for Nazi sympathizers Dog whistle much?

Going back to the phrase I used, power to the people, I was using it as a rallying cry for the new resistance Indivisible! which so terrified moderate Republicans that they dug in their heals against the changes being demanded by the far right in the AHCA. The power of people going to town hall meetings and demonstrating outside their representative's offices is what won the day.

So, were they communists Slobodan?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1846 on: March 27, 2017, 04:02:42 pm »

I've been on Medicare for four years now and believe me there are zero hassles other than our premiums are high because Part B is means tested and we still are earning too much money (good position to be in).  With BlueCross, almost 1/4 of the claims required a phone call to question decisions.  Now I just show my Medicare card and everything is taken care of.
Except that many doctors have opted out.  The better ones, at least.  I went to a NYC doctor who charged $500.  Because he opted out, Medicare paid nothing.  Because they paid nothing, my secondary insurance and tertiary insurance companies would not pick up their payments because they only pay when a primary accepts.  So although I have Medicare, I wound up paying the full $500 out-of-pocket.  I dropped that doctor and went to one who wasn't as good. 

As Obamacare kicks in, more and more doctors will opt out of that too.  They will only accept payments from their patients and then let you worry about getting reimbursed from the insurance company, if you can get it.  Huge deductibles are already a problem for many.  Also, as payments decrease, more smart people are going to forego medicine and go into more lucrative professions.  So the doctor class just won't be as good as we've had. 

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1847 on: March 27, 2017, 04:08:26 pm »

Another example of opting out of Medicare.  My cancer doctor, tops in his field, who saved my life 15 years ago, also dropped out of Medicare a few years ago.  Fortunately, I only see him once annually for a checkup and his charge that I pay fully is around $175.  So unless you have a lot of money to pay for doctors on your own, Medicare patients are not going to get the best care going forward.  Pray you stay healthy and then end it by getting hit by a truck. 

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1848 on: March 27, 2017, 04:14:22 pm »

While some people have to read about recent history on Wikipedia (of all "reliable" sources), I've been living it. I left a crippling socialism only to end up in a creeping one here.

Yep, Wikipedia is a great aid and advance to research...I use it a lot. I don't believe it's 100% correct but it's generally factual and a useful source for beginning a research endeavor.

But the question is, since I have zero idea where you came from, did you flee socialism or a communist dictatorship? Many people confuse/combine the two but they are quite different. From a source other than the suspect Wikipedia, this page spells out the differences well: Communism vs. Socialism

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In a way, communism is an extreme form of socialism. Many countries have dominant socialist political parties but very few are truly communist. In fact, most countries - including staunch capitalist bastions like the U.S. and U.K. - have government programs that borrow from socialist principles. "Socialism" is sometimes used interchangeably with "communism" but the two philosophies have some stark differences. Most notably, while communism is a political system, socialism is primarily an economic system that can exist in various forms under a wide range of political systems.

And then there's a further distinction between socialism and democratic socialism (espoused by Bernie Sanders). What is Democratic Socialism?

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Democratic socialists believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically—to meet public needs, not to make profits for a few. To achieve a more just society, many structures of our government and economy must be radically transformed through greater economic and social democracy so that ordinary Americans can participate in the many decisions that affect our lives.

Democracy and socialism go hand in hand. All over the world, wherever the idea of democracy has taken root, the vision of socialism has taken root as well—everywhere but in the United States. Because of this, many false ideas about socialism have developed in the US.

It's that greater economic and social democracy that sticks in the craw of the alt-right GOP. Which is itself delicious irony because the GOP claim they want a democracy in America...right up to the point where the people start reclaiming their power such as in the town hall meetings the GOP tried to escape from.

While I kinda like the term democratic socialism, the term I think is better is Progressivism which says "Progressivism is a philosophy based on the Idea of Progress, which asserts that advancements in science, technology, economic development, and social organization are vital to the improvement of the human condition."

But these are all just labels we put on ourselves or others. What matters more than beliefs are actions. Can anybody here justify Trump's actions and his meanness? How about the meanness of the AHCA or the way Paul Ryan talks about less fortunate people.

Don't we want to help our fellow men and women? Or would you rather step on them to gain advantage for yourself?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1849 on: March 27, 2017, 04:15:11 pm »

That's pretty funny Slobodan...the image you pointed to is actually on www.redbubble.com as a teeshirt design.



The reason it's funny is you think it's a "communist slogan" except, it's not. Lenin never said that...

It is however, a John Lennon song released in 1971. Maybe you got Lenin and Lennon mixed up?

It's somewhat suspect that a line like that, giving the power to the people is suspected of being communist propaganda . I also find it a bit ironic that it was President Donald J. Trump who in his inaugural speach promised to take the power from the Washington elite and return it to the people, and he stressed that his priority will be to put the U.S. ahead of other nations. Communist propaganda?

It's also funny that Trump has picked a a phrase "America First" which was the motto of Nazi-friendly Americans in the 1930s, and Trump has more than just a catchphrase in common with them. Read about it in the #FAKENEWS Washington Post Donald Trump’s new favorite slogan was invented for Nazi sympathizers Dog whistle much?

Going back to the phrase I used, power to the people, I was using it as a rallying cry for the new resistance Indivisible! which so terrified moderate Republicans that they dug in their heals against the changes being demanded by the far right in the AHCA. The power of people going to town hall meetings and demonstrating outside their representative's offices is what won the day.

So, were they communists Slobodan?
Jeff,  You point is silly.  Power To The People is under a picture of Lenin, the Communist who started the Soviet Union where millions of innocent people were killed.  Are you trying to compare Lenin to Americans who want to democratically change our government's policies?

Also, comparing me to wanting to place American interests first before others as a Nazi concept is just plain insulting to this Jew.  Talk about dog whistles. 

LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1850 on: March 27, 2017, 04:15:38 pm »

That's pretty funny Slobodan...the image you pointed to is actually on www.redbubble.com as a teeshirt design.

For a better impact, I'd pick another model, a proven T-shirt seller.
i.e. this model's T-shirts keep generating more revenue than all sugar export by a medium size Caribbean island.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 04:47:31 pm by LesPalenik »
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1851 on: March 27, 2017, 04:26:29 pm »

Jeff,  You point is silly.  Power To The People is under a picture of Lenin, the Communist who started the Soviet Union where millions of innocent people were killed.

You are confused Alan...go back and read Slobodan's response to my post where I ended the post with the phrase "Power To The People". Slobodan was accusing me of using a communist phrase–which it isn't. Lenin never said that, John Lennon did. Slobodan found the design graphic on the web and didn't know it was from a teeshirt company. :~)

And it was Trump who started using the phrase America First claiming he didn't know the American Nazi party used it first as a slogan to keep America out of the 2nd world war...so, if you are Jewish, you don't see Trump's use as an antisemitic dog whistle? Sorry but I was offended on my Jewish friends' behalf...
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1852 on: March 27, 2017, 04:35:15 pm »

...While I kinda like the term democratic socialism, the term I think is better is Progressivism which says "Progressivism is a philosophy based on the Idea of Progress, which asserts that advancements in science, technology, economic development, and social organization are vital to the improvement of the human condition."

But these are all just labels we put on ourselves or others. What matters more than beliefs are actions. Can anybody here justify Trump's actions and his meanness? How about the meanness of the AHCA or the way Paul Ryan talks about less fortunate people.

Don't we want to help our fellow men and women? Or would you rather step on them to gain advantage for yourself?
Who determines where that help comes from and how much?  You?  This is "The Road to Serfdom".  As much as Trump and Ryan say things you don't agree with, they are limited by our Constitution.  But the Constitution also protects us from people like you who would make the world in their own image of what they think is "right".  The road to hell is made with good intentions. 

You also offer a false choice.  It's not a matter of helping our fellow man or stepping on them.  We all help our fellow man with government aid through taxes and with private help.  But too many taxes strangle business, jobs and freedom. Taxes are not friendly.  In effect they are putting a gun to your head and forcing you to "pay up".  You lose economic and personal freedoms the more government takes your money and forces you to do things through regulation and taxes. 

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1853 on: March 27, 2017, 04:39:15 pm »

Okay, next time I'm in Cuba, I'll be sure to stop by the Capital and explain to Raul that the solution to all of his problems is just to visit Norway.

Next time you go to Cuba, you might look around and realize it's not a socialist state but a Communist dictatorship...

Even Forbes has something nice to say about Norway The World's Happiest Countries

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What’s the most prosperous country in the world? Norway. What’s it got that the rest of the world doesn’t? The biggest bump comes from having the world’s highest per capita GDP of $53,000 a year. Norwegians have the second-highest level of satisfaction with their standards of living: 95% say they are satisfied with the freedom to choose the direction of their lives; an unparalleled 74% say other people can be trusted.

Although Norway just slipped to number 2 from number 1. New Zealand beat them out. THE LEGATUM PROSPERITY INDEX™ 2016. USA is #17...ouch!
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1854 on: March 27, 2017, 04:39:25 pm »

Yep, Wikipedia is a great aid and advance to research...I use it a lot. I don't believe it's 100% correct but it's generally factual and a useful source for beginning a research endeavor.

But the question is, since I have zero idea where you came from, did you flee socialism or a communist dictatorship? Many people confuse/combine the two but they are quite different. From a source other than the suspect Wikipedia, this page spells out the differences well: Communism vs. Socialism

And then there's a further distinction between socialism and democratic socialism (espoused by Bernie Sanders). What is Democratic Socialism?

It's that greater economic and social democracy that sticks in the craw of the alt-right GOP. Which is itself delicious irony because the GOP claim they want a democracy in America...right up to the point where the people start reclaiming their power such as in the town hall meetings the GOP tried to escape from.

While I kinda like the term democratic socialism, the term I think is better is Progressivism which says "Progressivism is a philosophy based on the Idea of Progress, which asserts that advancements in science, technology, economic development, and social organization are vital to the improvement of the human condition."

But these are all just labels we put on ourselves or others. What matters more than beliefs are actions. Can anybody here justify Trump's actions and his meanness? How about the meanness of the AHCA or the way Paul Ryan talks about less fortunate people.

Don't we want to help our fellow men and women? Or would you rather step on them to gain advantage for yourself?

Jeff, there are so many problems with this post, it's amazing. 

First Wikipedia is not a good resource for any research.  No professor would accept Wikipedia as a noted source on any paper. 

Second, reclaiming, or claiming, your power in a democracy by voting for representatives is a lot different then insisting the general public has control over private companies and their decisions, which is what you are suggesting.  Sure, protection is key, and you can argue preventing pollution through regulations is protection for health reason, but over regulating other areas, such as banking, is nonsense. 

Virtually every business has an effect on the public, so should all businesses (including yours and mine) need to confirm to how the general public feels? 

I mean, I have clients I need to answer to, but I could care less about how the average person feels about my business.  If you're not paying me, take your song and dance somewhere else.  As a matter of fact, if you're not a designer, architect, GC or CM, art producer, or a consultant I hired, I really don't care about your opinions on how I should run my business. 

Insofar as the less fortunate, the day is what you make of it.  I have found that many people end up in the position they do from their own bad decisions.  Of course some are dealt a bad hand, but most are there due to themselves. 

In all my years teaching, only two of my students who failed did so because they were just not smart enough.  All the rest failed because they put forth no effort, some on purpose with the idea that working for 2 months during the summer was better then for 9 months during the rest of the year.  Try talking someone out of that decision. 

Last, you imply that in order to make wealth you need to take wealth from others (step on as you put it).  There is no economic theory or evidence that proves this point.  It is a fallacy that many people need to be suppressed in order for someone to become wealthy. 

This is further supported by the fact that the creation of money is not finite.  Although the amount of currency a government can make to represent value is, money and wealth are created by interest from investing, which has no limit.  Point being, people who are wealthy actually create their wealth, not steal it from others. 
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 04:48:31 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1855 on: March 27, 2017, 04:43:46 pm »

Who determines where that help comes from and how much?

The "people" should...and before you say "the people spoke and elected Trump", no, 27% of the people with a right to speak elected Trump...something I think will radically change in the midterm elections. I don't see people sitting on the sidelines any longer. Look what happened with the AHCA...the people scared their representatives into not voting for a terrible law. Haven't seen something like that since, oh, I don't know, the Tea Party :~)
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1856 on: March 27, 2017, 04:56:17 pm »

Next time you go to Cuba, you might look around and realize it's not a socialist state but a Communist dictatorship...

Even Forbes has something nice to say about Norway The World's Happiest Countries

Although Norway just slipped to number 2 from number 1. New Zealand beat them out. THE LEGATUM PROSPERITY INDEX™ 2016. USA is #17...ouch!

From an economic stand point, communism and socialism are the same.  In both cases, the common good owns everything and central planning is incorporated for all businesses.  The difference is really how the system is run, either though an elected government or dictatorship. 

The problem though, an elected government usually starts to move towards a dictatorship in a socialist state.  Look at the USSR, which did have elections in the beginning.  Although Joseph Stalin was elected and was continued to be elected, his election was a farce. 

Venezuela is quickly turning into a dictatorship with Maduro clamping down on opposition.  Remember, he did actually jail his running mate over made-up and erroneous charges. 

Anyway, why do you insist on talking positively about socialism but refuse to use actual socialist states to prove your points?

If socialism is so great, you should be siting the amazing aspects of Venezuela. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1857 on: March 27, 2017, 04:57:16 pm »

You are confused Alan...go back and read Slobodan's response to my post where I ended the post with the phrase "Power To The People". Slobodan was accusing me of using a communist phrase–which it isn't. Lenin never said that, John Lennon did. Slobodan found the design graphic on the web and didn't know it was from a teeshirt company. :~)

And it was Trump who started using the phrase America First claiming he didn't know the American Nazi party used it first as a slogan to keep America out of the 2nd world war...so, if you are Jewish, you don't see Trump's use as an antisemitic dog whistle? Sorry but I was offended on my Jewish friends' behalf...
Jeff, the singer Lennon may have said it first, I really don't care.  But it became associated with Communists and Marxists.  That's why Communist Vladimir Lenin's picture is on the same shirt as the saying. 

In typical liberal fashion, the media immediately associate Trump's statement of America First (and Make America Great Again) with the Nazis.  Why wouldn't they?  They've been calling him Hitler ever since he ran for office.  It's typical liberal smearing and guilt by association. 

The fact is that although German supporters in America used America First slogans to help keep America out of the war, most Americans in the 1930's through 1941 did NOT want to get involved in that war "over there".  They had enough of Europe in WWI.  We were struggling with the depression.  America's pacifism in the 1930's through December 7, 1941 ended in Pearl Harbor just like our war response to the 9-11 terrorist attack.  Even then, we declared war only on Japan.  It wasn't until three days later when Hitler declared war on the US, that the US declared war on Germany and joined the battle in Europe. 

Trump has clearly stated that while America will be friends with any friend of ours, the relationship must be with the understanding that we will place America First.  I think that's a good policy.

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1858 on: March 27, 2017, 05:00:03 pm »

Last, you imply that in order to make wealth you need to take wealth from others (step on as you put it).  There is no economic theory or evidence that proves this point.  It is a fallacy that many people need to be suppressed in order for someone to become wealthy.

Well, that's the way Trump made his money...for him it's a zero-sum game. I've known many people in business that behave the same way. I know from personal experience that was the way my father did business. He was a pretty slimy operator although he never actually broke the law.

I personal think thing should be decided on a win-win situation where one builds a consensus where everybody gains and nobody actually looses...sadly that's not the way politics is running these days.

BTW, as it relates to Wikipedia, your position may be a bit behind the times...Professors See Shift in Academic Attitudes on Wikipedia

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While professors, scholars, and other academics in the early 2000s cautioned students not to consult Wikipedia at all when researching, attitudes concerning the popular online encyclopedia are shifting, according to some Harvard professors.

Some professors in the Faculty of Arts and Sciences said they see Wikipedia as more acceptable, even as a website that students can peruse for somewhat reliable information. Although they still warned students to be wary when using Wikipedia, some professors no longer look at the site with the same criticism.

Of course, I can understand if Wikipedia is seen as a socialist tool for the liberation of knowledge and information. Academia is slow to accept anything new that will rattle certain cages...

Personally I admire the Wikimedia Foundation and the volunteers.

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What is Wikipedia?
Wikipedia is the largest collection of free, collaborative knowledge in human history. Millions of people from around the world have written and added to Wikipedia since it was created in 2001: anyone can edit it, at any time. Wikipedia contains more than 40 million volunteer-authored articles in nearly 300 languages. It is viewed more than 15 billion times every month, making it one of the most popular sites in the world. Wikipedia means something a little different to everyone -- but the people who support it are united by their curiosity, joy of knowledge, and belief in the fact that we can know much more together than any of us can alone.

What is the Wikimedia Foundation?
The Wikimedia Foundation is the non-profit organization that supports and operates Wikipedia and the other free knowledge projects. All of our work is guided by our mission to share the sum of all knowledge with every person in the world. We keep the websites fast, secure, and available. We support the community of volunteers who contribute to the Wikimedia projects. We make free knowledge accessible wherever you are — on your phone or laptop, on a boat in the South Pacific, or in the hills of Nepal. We help bring new knowledge online, lower barriers to access, and make it easier for everyone to share what they know.

The Wikimedia Foundation is a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt non-profit organization with offices in San Francisco, California, USA. You can also review our letter of tax-exemption and our financial reports and annual filings.

What, is this too "liberal" for you?
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1859 on: March 27, 2017, 05:13:57 pm »

Jeff, the singer Lennon may have said it first, I really don't care.  But it became associated with Communists and Marxists.  That's why Communist Vladimir Lenin's picture is on the same shirt as the saying.

Only in your mind...do a Google search on power to the people...

There's nothing in the results relating to communists and marxists. The only thing relating to Russia is a book Power to the People! : Russian Strength Training Secrets for Every American.

Or maybe you were thinking of the right-wingnut Laura Ingraham's book Power to the People

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In her latest, radio personality and author Ingraham (Shut up and Sing) calls on the American people to take back the phrase "Power to the People" from the anti-establishment groups of yesterday that, today, have made the country, according to Ingraham, "a slave to fringe groups, political correctness, expanding bureaucracies, and our own consumerism."

Yeah, maybe it was that...or could it be Power to the People: The World of the Black Panthers although their phrase was "All Power to the People".

Sorry bud, Lennon didn't take that phrase "Power To The People" from anybody. The fact you think it's a communist phrase is your own baggage that I don't carry.
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