Trump II

[LesPalenik]

I think the Dutch posters here should look home and stop with their constant attacks on our President and look at what their own leader and his supporters stand for.  During the Dutch election just held, PM Mark Rutte who was re-elected, said during the campaign aiming his comments toward immigrants especially Muslims, "If you don't like it here, get out of the country, go away", he said to newspaper AD. "That's a choice you have. If you live in a country where you are continually outraged at how we deal with each other. You have the choice to go away! You do not need to be here."
http://nltimes.nl/2017/01/23/dont-like-get-country-says-dutch-pm

Don't you think you ought to deal with your own country's bigotry?  Or maybe by looking at our President and how America does things, you can lie to yourself that your s**t doesn't stink too.

I thought, we are talking about lying politicians. In contrast to the American leader, this fellow seems like a straight shooter.

[Alan Klein]

Bigotry? It was not aimed at immigrants, and not against Muslims. People who have double passports, were born here, enjoy all the freedoms and benefits that this country has to offer, yet prefer the policies of the country they do not live in, are advised to choose.

Cheers,
Bart

The Dutch know who he was talking about.  It was the immigrants and Muslims.  People who aren't "Dutch" enough.  You just don't want to look at your own country's bigotry.  You'd rather look elsewhere at the sins of others.  Then you can hide in your own self-righteousness. 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

The Dutch know who he was talking about.  It was the immigrants and Muslims.

Do explain, how does someone who is born in a country, from Dutch parents, in your view, become an immigrant in that country? I have no idea what religion those who were addressed subscribe to if any, and it makes no difference either.

Cheers,
Bart

[LesPalenik]

Bigotry? It was not aimed at immigrants, and not against Muslims. People who have double passports, were born here, enjoy all the freedoms and benefits that this country has to offer, yet prefer the policies of the country they do not live in, are advised to choose.

The Dutch know who he was talking about.  It was the immigrants and Muslims.  People who aren't "Dutch" enough.  You just don't want to look at your own country's bigotry.  You'd rather look elsewhere at the sins of others.  Then you can hide in your own self-righteousness.

Coincidentally, Germany is contemplating doing away with dual passports for immigrants.

Germany’s CDU votes to limit immigrants’ rights to dual citizenship

And that's no lie.

[pegelli]

I think the Dutch posters here should look home and stop with their constant attacks on our President and look at what their own leader and his supporters stand for.  During the Dutch election just held, PM Mark Rutte who was re-elected, said during the campaign aiming his comments toward immigrants especially Muslims, "If you don't like it here, get out of the country, go away", he said to newspaper AD. "That's a choice you have. If you live in a country where you are continually outraged at how we deal with each other. You have the choice to go away! You do not need to be here."
http://nltimes.nl/2017/01/23/dont-like-get-country-says-dutch-pm

That's not bigotry, that's exactly the same as the US. Live by the rules and you're most welcome stay, if you don't live by the rules (or don't like it here) you're free to go. And that doesn't have anything to do with religion or country you come from.
And don't think we'll stop the attacks on Trump if he continues to behave like he has been doing during his campaign and first few month in office. If he wants to be a world leader he will have to face the criticism of the world, whether you like that or not. 

[pegelli]

People who aren't "Dutch" enough. 

I think your problem is with people who aren't "pro Trump" enough. They have to shut up so you don't have to face the reality the emperor has no clothes.
If we would be pro Trump you would welcome our contribution here, but when we're against it's "none of our business". Well, given the way he's screwing the whole world around I think it is our business so your efforts to shut us up are pointless.

[Alan Klein]

Do explain, how does someone who is born in a country, from Dutch parents, in your view, become an immigrant in that country? I have no idea what religion those who were addressed subscribe to if any, and it makes no difference either.

Cheers,
Bart

The Dutch know who their Prime Minister was talking about.  They are the Dutch of Turkish Muslim heritage.  Second class citizens who hold dual passports.  These are the people the Dutch don't think are Dutch enough.  Their customs aren't Dutch; their religion isn't Dutch.  Your PM was addressing who they were when he said that they should get out if they can't become more Dutch.  And you have the nerve to criticize Trump who wants to deport illegal immigrants from our country.  Not legal citizens.  That Trump wants to prevent foreigners, not citizens, who don't want to become Americans from even entering this country.  The hypocrisy from The Netherlands stinks to high heaven. 

[pegelli]

The Dutch know who their Prime Minister was talking about.  They are the Dutch of Turkish Muslim heritage.  Second class citizens who hold dual passports.  These are the people the Dutch don't think are Dutch enough.  Their customs aren't Dutch; their religion isn't Dutch.  Your PM was addressing who they were when he said that they should get out if they can't become more Dutch.  And you have the nerve to criticize Trump who wants to deport illegal immigrants from our country.  Not legal citizens.  That Trump wants to prevent foreigners, not citizens, who don't want to become Americans from even entering this country.  The hypocrisy from The Netherlands stinks to high heaven.

Alan, you're misquoting the Dutch prime minister.  These immigrants (and Turkish muslims aren't the only ones) don't have to become more "Dutch", they just have to follow our rules. They can keep their religion, they can keep their customs, they don't get deported. But if they don't follow the rules and start acting violently that they don't want to follow the rules it's probably better they go to place they like better, however nobody forces them to go. I don't think the USA is any different in that matter. We have plenty of immigrants who still execute their faith and are loyal to their immigrant community but hold positions of high influence and power in the Dutch public and private sector. They are well respected and only the xenophobic have a problem with them, but not the majority of the Dutch. So the only thing that stinks is your lack of understanding of the situation.

[kers]

The hypocrisy from The Netherlands stinks to high heaven.

As are your remarks, but
So maybe Erdogans statements are true and we live in a that we are a banana republic...
 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

I feel I really must congratulate Alan and Slobodan on their steadfast commitment to the defense of the indefensible.

Show me where I defended "indefensible."

[Alan Klein]

Alan, you're misquoting the Dutch prime minister.  These immigrants (and Turkish muslims aren't the only ones) don't have to become more "Dutch", they just have to follow our rules. They can keep their religion, they can keep their customs, they don't get deported. But if they don't follow the rules and start acting violently that they don't want to follow the rules it's probably better they go to place they like better, however nobody forces them to go. I don't think the USA is any different in that matter. We have plenty of immigrants who still execute their faith and are loyal to their immigrant community but hold positions of high influence and power in the Dutch public and private sector. They are well respected and only the xenophobic have a problem with them, but not the majority of the Dutch. So the only thing that stinks is your lack of understanding of the situation.

You can dress it up all your want.  But the truth is the "real" Dutch just don't like those "other" Dutch. 

[Farmer]

And where is the evidence to support your assertions, Alan?

[pegelli]

You can dress it up all your want.  But the truth is the "real" Dutch just don't like those "other" Dutch.

Do you have any real arguments? Feel free to believe what you want, but it's just like Trump, if somebody spews bullshit he will be called out on it.

[kers]

You can dress it up all your want.  But the truth is the "real" Dutch just don't like those "other" Dutch.

Your REAL dutch is Wilders .. He got 14% of the votes
Leaves us 86% sane Dutch

[Peter McLennan]

And, for a little relief from the angst:

https://bullshit.ist/ex-presidents-say-if-trump-wants-to-play-tough-guy-theyre-ready-24a02c2ec53f#.gis9rf9q0

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Bigotry? It was not aimed at immigrants, and not against Muslims...

Riiight.

Let's hear it from the horse's mouth who "we" are and what Muslim immigrants (shouldn't) do (bold mine):

If you live in a country where you are continually outraged at how we deal with each other. You have the choice to go away! You do not need to be here."

Rutte himself is rather annoyed with the way people deal with each other in the country. As an example he names a case in which bus company Qbuzz rejected a job seeker because he refused to shake women's hands for religious reasons. The College of Human Rights recently ruled in the job seeker's favor. Rutte calls this ruling bizarre. "Qbuzz is of course completely correct", he said to the newspaper. "It can not be that a driver says: I refuse to shake women's hands because it does not suit my beliefs. That's exactly why I'm revolting and lots of people revolt. Because the standard here is that you shake each other's hands."

The VVD leader is also annoyed by ... about immigrants who abuse the freedoms here to impose their cultural values on us."
[/i]

Btw, I fully side with the Dutch Prime Minister. I am arguing not against his comments, but against the silly defense of our Dutch friends that it is not "us" against "them," or not about immigrants, or not about Muslims. And if that was said by Trump, our Dutch friends would certainly cry bigotry, racism, islamophobia, etc.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Riiight.

Indeed. The case that Alan spoke about had to do with some folks who expressed their agreement with the thwarted Turkish coup, and said to reporters that they had to fuck off and go away. The reaction of our PM was that we have freedom of speech and press, and that if those guys (the same trouble makers that were involved in the later consulate riots) didn't like that freedom, they could always leave. Nothing to do with immigrants, nothing to do with their faith. Indeed.

Let's hear it from the horse's mouth who "we" are and what Muslim immigrants (shouldn't) do (bold mine):

The article you quoted from appears to be this one:
http://nltimes.nl/2017/01/23/dont-like-get-country-says-dutch-pm
I don't know the website, so I have no idea about their accuracy in reporting, but they combined 2 different cases.

The other case was mentioned in their article, where an applicant was refused for a job interview, and the grounds for refusal (not shaking hands with women, due to religious beliefs) were overthrown by a court. Indeed, it seems a bit odd to refuse a busdriver on those grounds. I've never met a busdriver who personally had to shakes hands with boarding passengers. I'm not familiar with the details of that job interview, maybe there was another aspect to the jobrequirements that does require to mingle with others. Anyway, our PM's personal opinion was incorrect as far as the law is concerned.

Anyhow, it again has nothing to do with immigrants, and only the not shaking hands might be connected with the applicant's behavior (stemming from his cultural/religious beliefs), behavior which is uncommon in our country. It's not about the man's religion, but about his actions/behavior.

So we have 2 different cases that only have a common aspect of culture clash. I do not see how that makes bigots of an entire population. It's a good thing we're generally level-headed folk, but we do get tested by people with Xenophobic and Islamophobic tendencies (even some politicians, who also have freedom of speech) as well as by people with different customs (and sometimes habits) than most others. That's to be expected in a multicultural society. Good thing that we have a legal system that, if needed, ultimately sorts those differences of opinion out if it can't be solved in open debate.

Cheers,
Bart

[Alan Klein]

Do you have any real arguments? Feel free to believe what you want, but it's just like Trump, if somebody spews bullshit he will be called out on it.

Here are two articles I found in a couple of minutes that discuss the problems the Dutch have had with Muslims and the problem Muslims have had with the Dutch recently and in their history.    The first is from The Atlantic a liberal magazine.

It seems your hands aren't very clean.  At least America didn't go around killing Muslims as part of an empire like the Dutch did after WWII.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/03/netherlands-geert-wilders-islam-election-empire/519648/
http://5pillarsuk.com/2017/03/20/the-dutch-elections-is-a-reality-check-that-islamophobia-is-mainstream-in-europe/

Here's a paragraph from the first link:
"The war did little to soften Dutch imperial ambitions. In 1946, while Nazi leaders faced prosecution in The Hague in the Netherlands, Dutch soldiers were rounding up and slaughtering Indonesian freedom fighters in a brutal counter-insurgency designed to take back control over their former colonies. Indonesia has claimed that 40,000 died after World War II in a years-long killing spree by the murderous Dutch captain Raymond Westerling on the eastern Indonesian island of Sulawesi."

The second article discusses the hatred of Muslims by the PVV which is your second largest party.  Not one politician in America ever says the things that Geert and some of  your other politicians say.  Geert calls Muslims "scum".  Yet you go on and on how bad America and Trump is and his policies.  Why don't you straighten out your own country before giving hypocritical advice to others? 

[LesPalenik]

Let's go back to the OP.
Of much more concern is the polarization between the pro-Trump and anti-Trump camps in USA. This afternoon, there was a violent clash in Huntington Beach between Trump supporters and counter-protesters. From the initial reports it appears that the anti-Trumps showed a bad behavior.

[Schewe]

Of much more concern is the polarization between the pro-Trump and anti-Trump camps in USA.

I'm sure there's bad behavior with both camps...and yet some wingnutz will go out of their way to join the lunatic fringe...

It seems Pizzagate won't die...today at the Whitehouse, in addition to Trump supporters the lunatics that actually believed Alex Jones, who perpetuated the Pizzagate protested.

Alex Jones is that far right radio host who actually had Trump call into his radio show to praise him. Ironically, even though he apologized for Pizzagate coverage, some people refused to believe the whole thing was a hoax.

Pizzagate Will Never Die: Here's Why the Conspiracy Theory Has New Life.

Like a villain in a bad horror movie, Pizzagate, the conspiracy theory that went mainstream, refuses to die. Just when you think the final nail is in the coffin, and Pizzagate has been vanquished to the depths of hell, it once again rears its ugly head like it did this past week.

On Saturday true believers attended a Pizzagate protest in Washington, D.C.'s Lafayette Park and attended by a "couple dozen people," Hill writer Will Sommer reported. For the uninitiated, Pizzagate is a conspiracy theory borne out of emails obtained by Wikileaks from Hillary Clinton's campaign chair, John Podesta. Some conspiracy theorists claimed that Podesta's emails contained code for child sex trafficking. For example, they claim "cheese pizza" is code for child pornography. They surmise that this alleged trafficking took place at popular D.C. pizza joint Comet Ping Pong, because the venue was also mentioned in Podesta's correspondence.

In the run up to the election and after, Pizzagate became so prevalent that one believer Edgar Maddison Welch, disturbed by the allegations and believing they were true, drove to Comet from North Carolina armed with a 9mm AR-15 rifle and .38-caliber revolver and fired shots inside the restaurant in December 2016. No one was injured, but Welch was arrested and pled guilty to gun and assault charges; Welch's plea was finalized in court Friday, March 24. But this did not put an end to the conspiracy theories. In fact, they may be gaining in popularity.

Tweeted by Will Sommer
Campaign editor @thehill

Now, I'm not saying these people are Trump supporters...but the odds are they didn't vote for Hillary, ya know? In fact, Will also posted a tweet A giant Trump trailer blasting God Bless America has arrived.



Pretty sure this is an example of the #FAKENEWS campaign that was instigated and or spread by the Russians...It looks like Russia hired internet trolls to pose as pro-Trump Americans.

This would be mildly troublesome except that a 2nd amendment nut decided to go to the pizza parlor and shoot it up. He recently pleaded out in the case: 'Pizzagate' Gunman Pleads Guilty to Comet Ping Pong Shooting

How does this relate to Trump? Well, what person in his right mind would associate with somebody like Alex Jones? The right wing lunatic that said Sandy Hook was a hoax and the Orlando shooting was a false flag operation orchestrated by the Obama admin. Why did Trump do a 30 minute interview with him? You can listen to this on YouTube video Jones & Trump.

But Jone's isn't done...InfoWars posted this: ALEX JONES: WHAT HAPPENS IF THEY KILL TRUMP?

As violent rhetoric against the president becomes the new norm, Trump strives to restore the Republic and bring back true Americana.

True Americana?

Like the people who believe the theory, which claimed that John Podesta's emails, which were leaked by WikiLeaks, contained coded messages referring to human trafficking and connecting a number of restaurants in the United States and members of the Democratic Party with a fabricated child-sex ring.

Well, at least Jones apologized for that yet there are still people protesting near the Whitehouse to save our children from Pedestal...

Hopefully, we here on LuLa can all agree that InfoWars is an example of REAL FAKE NEWS...right?