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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 918223 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1520 on: March 17, 2017, 05:35:13 pm »

Jeff, I'm all in favor of the arts.  But arguing that it's only a little bit of money reminds of the expression misattributed to Democrat Senator Dirkson of Illinois, your home state, years ago: "A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money"

The truth is arts survived before these programs and will survive without them.  The arts have been supported for years with private money.  Even Michelangelo painted the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel with private payments, or at least with private payments made to the church.  The problem is much of the arts especially on stations like PBS have been politicized.  Their Liberal-Democrat bias is obvious.  If the producers presented more balanced programs, many now opposed to continued funding, including myself, would favor continuing it. 

Ray

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1521 on: March 18, 2017, 05:51:46 am »

Pardon me and I mean no disrespect but do you care to cite where you read than the "IPCC has acknowledged that there is no sound evidence so far that this is happening". I can't find anything like this on https://www.ipcc.ch

Jeff,
I'm glad you've raised the topic. This issue is a bit confusing because the final IPCC reports, as I understand, are modified in their language in order to be more palatable to politicians who have the job of persuading the public that CO2 is a real problem.

The statements from the scientists and working groups who contribute to the IPCC are probably closer to the truth.
I haven't got a copy of the final report, after the politically correct changes have been made. But I do have a copy of the final draft from 'Working Group I'. This is how the final draft is described in the introduction.

"WORKING GROUP I CONTRIBUTION TO THE IPCC FIFTH ASSESSMENT REPORT CLIMATE CHANGE 2013: THE PHYSICAL SCIENCE BASIS
Final Draft Underlying Scientific-Technical Assessment"

"NOTE:
The Final Draft Underlying Scientific-Technical Assessment is submitted to the Twelfth Session of Working Group I for acceptance. The IPCC at its Thirty-sixth Session (Stockholm, 26 September 2013) will be informed of the actions of the Twelfth Session of Working Group I in this regard.

The final draft Report, dated 7 June 2013, of the Working Group I contribution to the IPCC 5th Assessment Report "Climate Change 2013: The Physical Science Basis" was accepted but not approved in detail by the 12th Session of Working Group I and the 36th Session of the IPCC on 26 September 2013 in Stockholm, Sweden. It consists of the full scientific and technical assessment undertaken by Working Group I.
"


Now I'm quite willing to post a copy of the relevant statements in this final draft from Working Group I, and/or the relevant texts where it is stated in some detail that there is a low confidence in the claimed increases in the severity and frequency of certain types of extreme weather events, such as droughts, cyclones and storms in general.

However, at the end of every section in this report, there is the following statement:
"Do Not Cite, Quote or Distribute"

So what do you think, Jeff? I'm between a rock and a hard place. You are asking me to quote my sources, but my sources are asking me not to cite, quote or distribute.

I'll address your other points in your post when I have time.


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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1522 on: March 18, 2017, 07:20:57 am »

NPR is run by liberals who present their points of view.  Also, now that there are so many cable stations, there are so many science, current event, nature and other stations that present multiple views all paid for privately.  It's no longer necessary for government to be involved, especially when the NPR producers are biased.  The taxpayers should keep the money for themselves or donate their own money to cable stations that present their point of view.
You are overlooking the fact that NPR is free and the cable television stations are not.  Your definition of bias is likely much different from mine.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1523 on: March 18, 2017, 07:29:05 am »

Top NSA official ridicules allegation Britain spied on Trump:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-wiretapping-nsa-idUSKBN16P096

Looking forward to Trump's reaction ...

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1524 on: March 18, 2017, 07:30:59 am »

Regarding the Civil War, I wondered whether it was worth the death of 700,000 Americans not including the thousands who lost their limbs and were disabled.  I believe slavery would have ended shortly anyway. The cotton gin and other mechanization made slavery too expensive and less productive than motivated employees using modern farming tools. It would have ended on its own.
It is a well established fact that the cotton gin encouraged slavery by making it much easier to process cotton and freeing up the manual labor for cultivating the cropland.  Manual picking of cotton existed well into the 20th century as there was no mechanized method of harvesting.
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  There may have been less Jim Crow laws implemented that kept discrimination for another hundred years.
was the voter suppression that lasted until 1964 "less"?

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Was getting rid of Saddam worth what we have now in the Middle East?
The map of the middle east was unstable because of the Sykes/Picot agreement between Britain and France during WWI.  It was just question of time before things boiled over. 

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Regarding corporations, owners can NOT run them without employees.  The richer the investor, the more employees he'll need.  Regarding monopolies, an unrelated issue, laws prevent them.  In most cases, there are alternative products so monopolies rarely can exist even without laws against them.
Yes, there are anti-trust laws but there is also discretion in terms of their enforcement.  If the current administration decides to take a relaxed approach there is not much anyone can do.

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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1525 on: March 18, 2017, 08:02:19 am »


The truth is arts survived before these programs and will survive without them.  The arts have been supported for years with private money.
Yes, Texaco funded the Metropolitan Opera broadcasts for a lot of years.  ExxonMobil funded Masterpiece theater.  There are a lot of other examples as well.  However, a lot of the private underwriting money has disappeared in recent years as companies have been under financial stress.
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Even Michelangelo painted the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel with private payments, or at least with private payments made to the church.
this is probably not the best example as the church was the government at that time.

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  The problem is much of the arts especially on stations like PBS have been politicized.  Their Liberal-Democrat bias is obvious.  If the producers presented more balanced programs, many now opposed to continued funding, including myself, would favor continuing it.
do you seriously mean the arts broadcasting is political?  Who will televise the Metropolitan Opera and countless other music programs ranging from classical to popular if not PBS.  Who will run documentaries on important photographers such as Dorthea Lange and Margaret Bourke-White except for PBS (I watched both of these and learn things that I did not know.  there are lots of other examples one can site.  The Corporation for Public Broadcasting has an independent board of directors appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate.  they also have in place one of the best Ombudsman programs of any news media outlet around.  during my working career I appeared on the PBS Newshour and several NPR news programs and was asked hard hitting questions each time.  I was on two debate programs with responsible adversaries.  I don't think there was political bent to the programs I appeared on.

Obviously Congress can defund these programs but the country will be poorer.  It won't impact the large metro areas since those stations will raise the necessary funding.  However, the rural areas will not be as fortunate in this regard and I suspect the stations will disappear.  the citizens of those regions will no longer have ready access to programming that enriches us all.  Maybe that is how it should be but I'm not on that side of the question.
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pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1526 on: March 18, 2017, 08:35:01 am »

Top NSA official ridicules allegation Britain spied on Trump:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-wiretapping-nsa-idUSKBN16P096

Looking forward to Trump's reaction ...

Cheers,
Bart
It will be considered liberal fake news by some, but the direct quotes are probably true.
Trump is sending them back to Fox : President offered no apology, saying: ‘You shouldn’t be talking to me, you should be talking to Fox’

Isn't it a pity that Trump trusts Fox more then his own NSA  :o
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 08:39:59 am by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1527 on: March 18, 2017, 09:01:48 am »

It will be considered liberal fake news by some, but the direct quotes are probably true.
Trump is sending them back to Fox : President offered no apology, saying: ‘You shouldn’t be talking to me, you should be talking to Fox’

Isn't it a pity that Trump trusts Fox more then his own NSA  :o

Yes, but it's a known tactic of populists to discredit reputable sources of information, so that their own Alternative facts can blossom. Secret services, judges, etc. have already been targeted and will continue to be.

Cheers,
Bart
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Ray

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1528 on: March 18, 2017, 09:06:01 am »

Yeah, ya know, CO2 is indeed a natural gas that is needed in the atmosphere but...if you look at all of the natural excretion of CO2 compared to the CO2 that humans create, the earth can not maintain an equilibrium...particularly when one of the things human are doing is leveling huge swaths of rainforest and other natural CO2 absorbers. Pretty sure humans care cause far more CO2 than can be absorbed and that excess human made CO2 is indeed a pollutant if you accept that a a pollutant is a substance or energy introduced into the environment that has undesired effects, or adversely affects the usefulness of a resource?

I think you are underplaying the significance of CO2, Jeff. It's not just needed in the atmosphere, like a particular vitamin is needed for good health. It's a molecule that is absolutely essential for all life and plant growth on our planet.

Plants in particular thrive on increased levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. A doubling of CO2 levels, say from preindustrial levels of 280 ppm, to 560 ppm that might exist at some time in the near future, would have the effect of increasing total plant growth by an average of 30%.

Some types of pants will increase their growth by 40% or more with a doubling of CO2 levels. Other types might increase their growth by only 20%, and this effect takes place with the same amount of water and nutrients.

When plants are water-stressed due to drought conditions, the benefits of high levels of CO2 are even greater. This can be confirmed in real time without the need of computer projections.

This is an inconvenient truth for CO2 alarmists. How do they counter it?
The mantra is, such increases in plant growth, with respect to agricultural crops, do not contain as much protein and micro-nutrients as plants grown in lower levels of CO2. I don't deny this, but let's unravel it.

If soils do not contain sufficient quantities of certain minerals and micronutrients to accommodate increased growth, then the percentage of such minerals in the final product will be reduced. That's obvious.

If there's no Selenium in the soil, for example, then one should not expect any Selenium to be present in any crop grown in the soil. Basic logic.

If it were possible, through some science fiction scenario, to bring CO2 levels back to preindustrial levels in one year, by seeding processes that caused the CO2 to fall as rain, the alarmists might be overjoyed, but the reality is, there'd be a catastrophic reduction in agricultural production. There'd be mass starvation in many undeveloped countries.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1529 on: March 18, 2017, 09:19:17 am »

...Isn't it a pity that Trump trusts Fox more then his own NSA  :o

When/if it becomes his, he might.

In the meantime, it is just a part of the resistance. If approximately a half of the country is in the state of derengement and pledging resistance at all costs and by all means, it is naive to believe that civil servants are somehow totally politically neutral, regardless of how much they are supposed to be. If one accepts the narrative that Trump's support is predominantly in the rural America, working class, less educated, "deplorables," etc., then, by the same token, the liberal support is among the urban, educated, establishment, elite, media, universities, etc. Which would mean that many institutions would not even reflect the country's 50/50 split, but would actually be predominantly liberal. That includes State Department, CIA, NSA, FBI, etc. Note the immediate resignations among civil servants after his win.

Also, the NSA guy said that the claim about Brits spying on the then-candidate Trump is "utterly ridiculous" (or something similar)...didn't we spy on their prime minister (and French, German, etc.)?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1530 on: March 18, 2017, 09:24:54 am »

... this is probably not the best example as the church was the government at that time...

Good point, Alan.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1531 on: March 18, 2017, 09:34:42 am »

This is an inconvenient truth for CO2 alarmists. How do they counter it?

I am not a plant. ;)

More seriously, more CO2 is not better in the balance of things (one cannot isolate 1 questionable benefit and ignore all negative side effects), just have a look at ocean acidification, "the other CO2 problem".

Besides, elevated levels of CO2 reduces our brain from functioning well.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1532 on: March 18, 2017, 09:36:26 am »

You are overlooking the fact that NPR is free and the cable television stations are not.  Your definition of bias is likely much different from mine.
NPR(PBS) is not free.  Unless you're tuning in TV with "rabbit ear" antenna, it's part of the basic cable service you pay for in a package that also includes NBC, CBS, and other regular broadcast station as well as non-premium cable stations like CNN, etc.  PBS is reimbursed by the cable companies I pay.  Additionally, unlike the latter stations, NPR (PBS) gets additional money from me in the taxes I pay.  Maybe PBS made sense before cable.  But today with all the nature, history and other well produced stations, we really don't need a government station.  Let private industry handle it.  Big Bird could be sold off and wonderful programs like Ken Burns does would be picked up in a heartbeat by the History channel.  There's loads of nature, conservation and high brow stuff already on private cable.  The taxpayer should save their money and spend it on the cable stations they want to view.  They shouldn't have to pay for what government  bureaucrats think they should watch, even if there was no bias.

Regarding bias, one tends to think their media outlet is not biased.  Most liberals who watch MSNBC  and most conservatives who watch FOX think the other station is biased and their station is "fair and balanced".  It's the way we see things. 

pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1533 on: March 18, 2017, 09:38:36 am »

When/if it becomes his, he might.

In the meantime, it is just a part of the resistance. If approximately a half of the country is in the state of derengement and pledging resistance at all costs and by all means, it is naive to believe that civil servants are somehow totally politically neutral, regardless of how much they are supposed to be. If one accepts the narrative that Trump's support is predominantly in the rural America, working class, less educated, "deplorables," etc., then, by the same token, the liberal support is among the urban, educated, establishment, elite, media, universities, etc. Which would mean that many institutions would not even reflect the country's 50/50 split, but would actually be predominantly liberal. That includes State Department, CIA, NSA, FBI, etc. Note the immediate resignations among civil servants after his win.

Also, the NSA guy said that the claim about Brits spying on the then-candidate Trump is "utterly ridiculous" (or something similar)...didn't we spy on their prime minister (and French, German, etc.)?
I think it's a reasonable hypothesis Slobodan on the average population in these agencies, but I don't think the majority is as large as you describe. There is still a fair number of conservatives in these urban, educated areas that will also be in the employment pool of the departments. However a (small) majority of liberals doesn't mean they're suddenly all going to undermine Trump by creating alternative facts and turning stuff 180 degrees around. I'm optimistic enough to assume that the vast majority of civil servants has enough professional and personal ethics to not do that. There will obviously be exceptions, you will have those in any professional (and other) community.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1534 on: March 18, 2017, 10:00:23 am »

I think the debate about getting rid of PBS and other social programs and regulations is really about a general philosophy of the purpose of government.  The main dispute as I see it is this.  Do we want government to run our lives, to be involved in all the decisions we make, to constantly watch over us from birth to death like some nanny state?  Or do we want government to leave us alone, to allow us to make our own decisions about our lives, good and bad, with minimal interference from government?  That's the debate.

Many libertarians, and I think Bannon is one, not so much Trump, think that government has gone too far in its efforts to run the show.  Their cutbacks to pay for the increase  in military spending is not about satisfying congressmen concerned with the budget.  That's a handy excuse.  It's really about trying to get us back to a people who rely on our own thinking and efforts to live our lives.

I'm all for that. 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1535 on: March 18, 2017, 10:13:04 am »

I think the debate about getting rid of PBS and other social programs and regulations is really about a general philosophy of the purpose of government.  The main dispute as I see it is this.  Do we want government to run our lives, to be involved in all the decisions we make, to constantly watch over us from birth to death like some nanny state?  Or do we want government to leave us alone, to allow us to make our own decisions about our lives, good and bad, with minimal interference from government?  That's the debate.

I understand the level of polarization in the USA is high, but isn't there any/some middleground possible?
It's also something cultural though, "You're either with us, or against us" as a former US president once said.
Black or White, no nuance

IMHO, synergy still produces better results though.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1536 on: March 18, 2017, 10:14:41 am »

Top NSA official ridicules allegation Britain spied on Trump:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-wiretapping-nsa-idUSKBN16P096

Looking forward to Trump's reaction ...

Cheers,
Bart

Actually, Angela Merkle at the meeting with Trump with the reporters smiled because she knew that it was she who was spying on Trump.  After Obama, she felt one good turn deserved another.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1537 on: March 18, 2017, 10:26:11 am »

Actually, Angela Merkle at the meeting with Trump with the reporters smiled because she knew that it was she who was spying on Trump.  After Obama, she felt one good turn deserved another.

It would be nice to know who gave the more useful pointers on how to handle Putin... ;)

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1538 on: March 18, 2017, 10:41:10 am »

I understand the level of polarization in the USA is high, but isn't there any/some middleground possible?
It's also something cultural though, "You're either with us, or against us" as a former US president once said.
Black or White, no nuance

IMHO, synergy still produces better results though.

Cheers,
Bart
  Despite Bannon's libertarian thinking, Trump is very much the NY Liberal Cruz accused him of being during the campaign.  While they're reducing spending on some social programs, Trump wants some form of Obamacare and wants to spend a trillion on infrastructure, both darlings of the liberals.  He also wants import duties, a decidedly anti-free market policy.  I think liberal and Democrats hate him because they lost and the way he presents himself as a boisterous, no nonsense kind of guy.  Bernie Sanders said many of the same things but in a more grandfatherly way. Watching Trump at the news conference with Merkle, he does seem more presidential while still maintaining some of his pugnaciousness and wry sense of humor as was seen with his comments about tapping Merkle's phone.  He can be a funny kind of guy.  Certainly, he isn't the ogre so many adversaries make him out to be.  It's just politics.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1539 on: March 18, 2017, 10:42:39 am »

I think you are underplaying the significance of CO2, Jeff. It's not just needed in the atmosphere, like a particular vitamin is needed for good health. It's a molecule that is absolutely essential for all life and plant growth on our planet.

Plants in particular thrive on increased levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. A doubling of CO2 levels, say from preindustrial levels of 280 ppm, to 560 ppm that might exist at some time in the near future, would have the effect of increasing total plant growth by an average of 30%.

Some types of pants will increase their growth by 40% or more with a doubling of CO2 levels. Other types might increase their growth by only 20%, and this effect takes place with the same amount of water and nutrients.
  Yes, that's the assumption.  What we don't know is whether this will hold up.  Weather has become more violent certainly in the Washington DC area with more really bad storms and high winds.  We also don't know what will happen with rainfall patterns and whether there will be increased drought in some pats of the country.  Look at what happened in California this past winter.  Tremendous amounts of rainfall that virtually ended a multiyear drought.  I haven't seen all the final reports yet, but there was concern that some of the tree crops would be damaged by prolonged standing water.

Also, you refer to increased growth of plants with higher concentrations of CO2.  this is dependent on plant species.  If it's invasive weeds such as kudzu and porceleine berry, that's not a good thing.  For most food crops, the photosynthetic pathway exclusive of CO2 levels is rate limiting and higher CO2 may not have much impact.  I've not seen much research on soybeans, corn and wheat in terms of increased CO2 and of course the US already produces surpluses of those crops so I doubt the CO2 increase is much of an issue.

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When plants are water-stressed due to drought conditions, the benefits of high levels of CO2 are even greater. This can be confirmed in real time without the need of computer projections.
Do you have a reference for major grain and cereal crops grown in the US?

This is an inconvenient truth for CO2 alarmists. How do they counter it?
The mantra is, such increases in plant growth, with respect to agricultural crops, do not contain as much protein and micro-nutrients as plants grown in lower levels of CO2. I don't deny this, but let's unravel it.

Quote
If soils do not contain sufficient quantities of certain minerals and micronutrients to accommodate increased growth, then the percentage of such minerals in the final product will be reduced. That's obvious.

If there's no Selenium in the soil, for example, then one should not expect any Selenium to be present in any crop grown in the soil. Basic logic.
I don't see how this is related to CO2 levels

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If it were possible, through some science fiction scenario, to bring CO2 levels back to preindustrial levels in one year, by seeding processes that caused the CO2 to fall as rain, the alarmists might be overjoyed, but the reality is, there'd be a catastrophic reduction in agricultural production. There'd be mass starvation in many undeveloped countries.
Worse, one would see increase acidification of lakes, rivers and oceans which is not a good thing.  Basic Chem 101.
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