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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 918409 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1440 on: March 16, 2017, 10:54:44 am »

I am sure that the thousands of workers involved in horse tack, Farriers, Blacksmiths, buggy whip, and cart industries were against the manufacturer of the automobile. 

Should we have restricted the marketing of the automobile to help keep these important and well established industries viable?  No, market environments change as technology changes and there are winners and losers.

What we need to do is take these coal industry workers and give them opportunities to learn another trade to work. When a society moves from one technological resource to another, it should not just abandon those citizens who worked the former, but should help them transition as technology transitions.

I am sure that unemployed coal workers would like to have steady employment but they may need help in the transition. As a society, do we abandon them as "collateral damage" or do we help them?

I would like to live in a country where we work to help job losers become employed winners. As a taxpayer, I am willing to contribute.  Employed workers are good for my country.
I agree.  Your heart is in the right place, although I am nervous about starting another program we can't afford and will grow into a monster as most federal programs do.

Trump won because he said he would help those in the coal and rust belt states who have lost their careers because of these changes and because the jobs went overseas.  Of course, he's not stupid.  He knows most of these jobs won't come back.  But he had the political good sense, unlike Hillary, to show that he cared.  Most of the people out of work in these industries realize that times have changed.  But, these people, mostly Democrats, just wanted to know that they're not the forgotten "deplorables' in flyover country.  That someone in Washington is going to try to help.    If Trump and the Republicans can at least put some food on their tables, they will continue to rule Congress and the Presidency.  All the talk about tapping phones and the Russian Caper will be long forgotten. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1441 on: March 16, 2017, 11:05:32 am »

Very apt, I like it.

As a layman, I think it's more reasonably worded than the first piece of junk. The main difficulty may be that discrimination based on place of birth collides with the Constitution and International laws on Human Rights.

Another issue is that it is unproven that the goal of the EO is obviously linked to the selection (discrimination) of those specific countries. Yes, there may have been less than stellar cooperation from some countries in doing proper background checks to enable the issuing of visa, and/or countries may have played a role of safe-haven for terrorists. But then the list should not be restricted to those countries alone. So it remains discriminatory, and in conflict with domestic and international law.

Just my 2 cents. I'll leave it to the US government to solve this mess they created themselves.

Cheers,
Bart

I agree.  We should add Belgium to the list because there seems to be more terrorists there then elsewhere.  Look what they did to Paris.   No more visas for them for three months until we can figure out how to vet them better. 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1442 on: March 16, 2017, 11:17:31 am »

I agree.  We should add Belgium to the list because there seems to be more terrorists there then elsewhere.  Look what they did to Paris.   No more visas for them for three months until we can figure out how to vet them better.

Indeed, if the vetting process in Belgium when applying for visa to enter the USA is lacking in any way. And that goes for all other countries, not just Belgium if applicable (which would surprise me since the US embassy supplies those visa to begin with, and I do not recall any prior Belgian terrorist attacks on US soil).

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 11:24:42 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1443 on: March 16, 2017, 11:22:31 am »

Trump won because he said he would help those in the coal and rust belt states who have lost their careers because of these changes and because the jobs went overseas.

Which would be another lie, in the case of coal miners. The simple truth is that there are cheaper sources of energy (oil and gas from fracking).

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1444 on: March 16, 2017, 11:48:58 am »

Indeed, if the vetting process in Belgium when applying for visa to enter the USA is lacking in any way. And that goes for all other countries, not just Belgium if applicable (which would surprise me since the US embassy supplies those visa to begin with, and I do not recall any prior Belgian terrorist attacks on US soil).

Cheers,
Bart

 I can't believe you bought that meme liberal argument.  Who waits to lock their doors after they get burglarized?   And how do you know the visa process in Belgium is adequate?  The president of the US by congressional law was given the authority to control immigration.  I hope he is verifying that vetting is proper in Belgium as France didn't do too good.   I know.  You're going to tell me about European Union rules of free passage between countries.  Well, that's your problem, not ours.  America isn't the EU and we want to protect our borders more thoroughly. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1445 on: March 16, 2017, 12:05:09 pm »

Which would be another lie, in the case of coal miners. The simple truth is that there are cheaper sources of energy (oil and gas from fracking).

Cheers,
Bart
Bart, I didn't lie. You mis-read what I said.   I said, "Trump won because he said he would help those in the coal and rust belt states who have lost their careers because of these changes and because the jobs went overseas." 

"....because of these changes..." refers to Ottophocus's post that I responded where he referred to changes effected by the market. 



 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1446 on: March 16, 2017, 12:17:09 pm »

I can't believe you bought that meme liberal argument.  Who waits to lock their doors after they get burglarized?   And how do you know the visa process in Belgium is adequate?

Do you mean that you do not trust your own embassy to do their work when issuing such documents?

Quote
The president of the US by congressional law was given the authority to control immigration.  I hope he is verifying that vetting is proper in Belgium as France didn't do too good. I know.  You're going to tell me about European Union rules of free passage between countries.  Well, that's your problem, not ours.  America isn't the EU and we want to protect our borders more thoroughly.

How does homegrown terrorism (like in Belgium, or in France, or in Germany, or in Norway) have anything to do with an EO for stricter vetting during an additional 90 days for immigration in the USA? Do you need to apply for permission to travel between US states nowadays? Last time I was there we could still travel freely, just like in those countries that are part of the Schengen zone in the European Union.

I fail to get the point you are trying to make.

Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1447 on: March 16, 2017, 12:23:34 pm »

Bart, I didn't lie. You mis-read what I said.

And I didn't imply that you lied, but that Trump did.
http://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/2/21/14671932/donald-trump-coal-mining-jobs

Quote
I said, "Trump won because he said he would help those in the coal and rust belt states who have lost their careers because of these changes and because the jobs went overseas."

I remember Trump promising that he'd open the mines again, not that he would 'help' the miners.

Çheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1448 on: March 16, 2017, 12:25:05 pm »

That's why we are calling these clowns so-called judges. Relying on the Internet memes and hearsay for their decisions.

Here is an anecdote from my personal experience. When we first moved to the States, I got my drivers license, but my wife couldn't, as she had a different visa (family-member one). The law allowed her to use her home-country drivers license for the first six months. The Secretary of State (Illinois) realized the problem, that there are legal residents who can not be issued drivers licenses, and posted a letter of their web site, explaining that they can continue to use their home-country licenses as long as their visas are valid. After a minor accident, police checked her license, saw it is past six-month validity and sent her to court. I supplied a printout of the Secretary of State's Letter as a proof that the charges should be dismissed. The judge's answer: "I do not give a shit what the Secretary of State thinks or says. I read the law. $125 fine...next case!"

Here's a worse anecdote.  Well, worse for me.  I was involved in a lawsuit.  Not a local case but a federal case.  My own lawyer wanted to pull out and asked the court to allow them too.  I fought it because it would be costly to me to get another attorney up to speed.  So I asked for a hearing in the judge's chambers.  My lawyer made his point.  I made mine.  The judge ruled right then in my lawyer's favor allowing my lawyer to pull out.  I complained that wasn't fair. So the judge looked me right in the eye and retorted, "You know, Mr. Klein.  The American jurisprudence system is not always fair."  I sat stunned not because of his ruling but what he said about the law.  It was an expensive lesson that I learned.  Judges were attorneys before they became jurists.  So you're not going to win in a situation like I had.  Anyway the law isn't always the law. 

LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1449 on: March 16, 2017, 12:31:45 pm »

Here's a worse anecdote.  Well, worse for me.  I was involved in a lawsuit.  Not a local case but a federal case.  My own lawyer wanted to pull out and asked the court to allow them too.  I fought it because it would be costly to me to get another attorney up to speed.  So I asked for a hearing in the judge's chambers.  My lawyer made his point.  I made mine.  The judge ruled right then in my lawyer's favor allowing my lawyer to pull out.  I complained that wasn't fair. So the judge looked me right in the eye and retorted, "You know, Mr. Klein.  The American jurisprudence system is not always fair."  I sat stunned not because of his ruling but what he said about the law.  It was an expensive lesson that I learned.  Judges were attorneys before they became jurists.  So you're not going to win in a situation like I had.  Anyway the law isn't always the law.

Unfortunately, situations like this are not so uncommon. I wonder what's the percentage of the unfair cases.
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pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1450 on: March 16, 2017, 12:37:57 pm »

I wonder what's the percentage of the unfair cases.
Ask Trump, I bet he can remember a few  :P
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pieter, aka pegelli

pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1451 on: March 16, 2017, 12:42:19 pm »

Do you mean that you do not trust your own embassy to do their work when issuing such documents?
For real Visa's from Belgium (and many other European countries) they do a pretty thorough job, however for short term visitors they rely on the ESTA process, which is an on-line application system slightly more advanced that the former paper based "Visa Waiver Process". At least the new system has a few days between submitting the data and the person showing up at the US border.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1452 on: March 16, 2017, 12:43:06 pm »

Do you mean that you do not trust your own embassy to do their work when issuing such documents?

How does homegrown terrorism (like in Belgium, or in France, or in Germany, or in Norway) have anything to do with an EO for stricter vetting during an additional 90 days for immigration in the USA? Do you need to apply for permission to travel between US states nowadays? Last time I was there we could still travel freely, just like in those countries that are part of the Schengen zone in the European Union.

I fail to get the point you are trying to make.

Cheers,
Bart
I have no idea how we issue visas.  I hope Trump or Secretary of State Tillerson has the State Department review the policies for the issuance of visas around the world beside the 6 countries in question.  After Obama's lax policies, it would be a good idea.  Who needs another 9-11? 

Regarding travel, although the 50 US states are sovereign within the US Federal system, they're not each a nation state.  All 50 are American.  Our constitution allows free travel between states.  At least I think it does.  New Jersey is sovereign but not a Nation-State like Germany and France where people are citizens of different countries.  But just because France isn't vetting Belgium, doesn't mean we shouldn't. 

pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1453 on: March 16, 2017, 12:49:14 pm »

I know.  You're going to tell me about European Union rules of free passage between countries.  Well, that's your problem, not ours.  America isn't the EU and we want to protect our borders more thoroughly.
Well, that's a slight misconception, there is no free travel within the European Union. There is free travel between countries that signed up to the Schengen agreement which is currently 22 of the EU members and 4 non-EU members. They basically work together to set a collective outside border with regard to Visas and Immigration. Even though it's different countries it's kind of similar to free travel between the different states of the US and one collective outside border.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1454 on: March 16, 2017, 12:55:15 pm »

Ask Trump, I bet he can remember a few  :P
I have to agree with you there.  As a former contractor in NYC who worked for real estate managers and developers, I wouldn't do work for companies like his.  I wanted to get paid. :) 

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1455 on: March 16, 2017, 12:58:04 pm »

...The American jurisprudence system is not always fair."...

 Judges are supposed to enforce laws, not fairness. Lawmakers should be the ones to take fairness into consideration.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1456 on: March 16, 2017, 01:00:51 pm »

EPA hit hardest as Trump budget targets regulation:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-budget-epa-idUSKBN16N0E1

I do understand that this is still open for negotiation, and not the final budget. However, such a proposal already borders on criminal if one doesn't care for the air that citizens breath if it costs money, or for cleaning up poisonous waste dumps that jeopardize water quality, etc.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1457 on: March 16, 2017, 01:04:58 pm »

Well, that's a slight misconception, there is no free travel within the European Union. There is free travel between countries that signed up to the Schengen agreement which is currently 22 of the EU members and 4 non-EU members. They basically work together to set a collective outside border with regard to Visas and Immigration. Even though it's different countries it's kind of similar to free travel between the different states of the US and one collective outside border.
Over here, Americans treasure our right of free travel and not needing any documentation.  We love the idea of getting in your car, filling up the gas tank, and speeding down interstates though as many states as you want.  Just for the heck of it.  Freedom!   If Congress foolishly wrote a law restricting travel, having to stop at state borders to be checked, there would be a revolution.  Americans would burn down the Capitol and shoot up Washington DC with their guns protected by the 2nd Amendment.  It would be more fun than our Civil War.  Whoopee!

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1458 on: March 16, 2017, 01:08:41 pm »

Judges are supposed to enforce laws, not fairness. Lawmakers should be the ones to take fairness into consideration.

Yes, I largely agree, although like in your wife's case, one could hope for the mitigating circumstances (not deliberately breaking the law, but being led to believe there was more leeway) to result in e.g. a reduced fine. Maybe judges do not have that freedom in the USA, like they do in my country (although they would need to be consistent to avoid issues with such a verdict), but I think they do.

Cheers,
Bart
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Otto Phocus

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1459 on: March 16, 2017, 01:09:50 pm »

The main difficulty may be that discrimination based on place of birth collides with the Constitution and International laws on Human Rights.

Perhaps just a nit to pick, but the EO does not restrict itself nor does it mention Natural Citizens (by birth) but restricts itself to Nationals of those countries, which would include naturalized citizens.

Quote
Another issue is that it is unproven that the goal of the EO is obviously linked to the selection (discrimination) of those specific countries. Yes, there may have been less than stellar cooperation from some countries in doing proper background checks to enable the issuing of visa, and/or countries may have played a role of safe-haven for terrorists. But then the list should not be restricted to those countries alone. So it remains discriminatory, and in conflict with domestic and international law.


I am not sure I follow that it is in conflict with domestic or international law. There are no international laws that require the US to accept refugees. There are, however, international laws (1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees/1967 protocol/ UNGA Resolution 2198) that dictate how the US must treat refugees after they are accepted. There are agreements about how many refugees the US chooses to accept, but those agreements are not law, nor binding, and are at the pleasure of the President.

As for domestic law, the EO, which can be accessed from

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/03/06/executive-order-protecting-nation-foreign-terrorist-entry-united-states

Cites the various federal laws that authorizes the President in doing exactly what is in this revised EO.  The previous EO was poorly written and did violate federal law. The take-away is that perhaps these laws need to be revised.  But in any case, the President is bound by laws in their present form, regardless of how people feel about the law.

There is no legal requirement to include all countries that meet one of the three criteria listed in the EO or the applicable laws.  Morally, our sense of fairness may require that if you are calling out certain countries that meet criteria, you should call out all countries that meet that same criteria.  That's the difference between morality and legality. An argument can be made, as you did, that this practice is discriminatory and it may be so.  But even if it is discriminatory, that does not mean that it is automatically illegal.

The 14th amendment provides equal protection for any person (not limited to citizens) within the jurisdiction of the country or any state.  The sticking point is when does a person fall under the jurisdiction of a country or state?  The answer is when that country or state accepts them.  Persons not accepted into the country are not protected under the 14th amendment.  There are some interpretations that recognize de facto jurisdiction over illegal immigrants, but that is a much more complicated issue. 

Trump's EO excludes specific classes of people before they are accepted in to the country. This is also why the 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees/1967 protocol/ UNGA Resolution 2198) does not apply.  If a refugee enters a country without authorization and does not immediately surrender to the appropriate authorities, they lose their refugee protected status. 

That is what makes it legal although it can be argued that it is ill-advised.

The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 bans discrimination based on religion and national origin for the purpose of establishing immigration quotas.  Trump's rational of national security makes his decision external to the 1965 act's scope. Now if Trump orders that nationals from country X can never immigrate to this country, that would be illegal.  A temporary ban, in accordance with
8 U.S.C. 1101 is not illegal.

Now if Trump wanted to take refugees from these selected countries, after they have been accepted into the United States, and them put them in concentration camps....that would be illegal.

In any case, even if a person were to be accepted into the US, 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, article 32 gives the US the authority to expel any refugee on the grounds of national security or public safety.  In that case, the refugee would be allowed representation in court.

It should be noted that much of the above only applies to refugees and not a larger population of immigrants or visitors.

No non-US citizen has any right to enter the US.  Even diplomats don't have that right which is why diplomatic credentials have to be formally accepted.  The US is hardly unique in this and controlling entry is one of the foundations of internationally recognized sovereignty.

Please don't misconstrue any of this as support for Trump's EO from me. I personally think it is a poorly thought out and even stupid idea.  But I am having a hard time interpreting this as illegal.
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