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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 918204 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1400 on: March 15, 2017, 05:28:30 pm »

Ahhmm...

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1401 on: March 15, 2017, 05:30:36 pm »

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1402 on: March 15, 2017, 05:34:15 pm »

Ahhmm...

Good find Slobodan. Only Trump's likeness could use some work.

Cheers,
Bart
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ppmax2

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1403 on: March 15, 2017, 10:38:03 pm »

Quote
I do believe my own eyes.  I notice that it's been warmer in the winter which has been nice for the most part.  I've saved on cleaning bills as I haven't needed to wear some of my heavier winter garb.  The last time I was down at the beach, the water didn't seem any higher.  I haven't really seen the effect of global warming although we're being told it will happen at any moment, or maybe later in 50 years, so I should believe that so Al Gore can make another $100 million on warming and buy another jet to burn 1000 gallons of fuel an hour.  Whew.  It must be pretty bad.  You said so. 

This is an astoundingly facile, self-centered, myopic, and selfish view.

If your "Global Warming Report" wasn't so stereotypical I'd be shocked at it's callowness, but it's just par for the course from the republican/trump illiterati. Maybe all this warm weather you're enjoying leads to drought, causes fires, and burns your house down?

Quote
What we're getting now is "Warming is bad.  People are going to die.  Cities will be flooded.  The end of the world is near, well, in 50 years anyway."  All bad news and all one sided.

The good news about global warming is that your winters are warmer. Lucky you!

Quote
In order for societies to make good judgments on where government should spend their money, we need good facts that are not tainted with one-side hyperbole.  That's all I'm asking for.

Out of curiosity, what's the upside of smoking? What you see is "one-sided hyperbole" is scientific consensus. What you hear on Rush Radio is one sided hyperbole.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1404 on: March 15, 2017, 10:51:52 pm »

Bernie Sanders made a good point. After too many lies, ...

@BernieSanders: The day is going to come when some tragedy will hit, and people won’t believe this President

Crying Wolf
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1405 on: March 15, 2017, 11:08:19 pm »

... Out of curiosity, what's the upside of smoking?...

Freedom of choice.

LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1406 on: March 15, 2017, 11:28:59 pm »

Bart:  I do not dispute any of your predictions.  But you missed my point.  What I'm asking for is the other side.  Something like this, "Dr. Smith and Dr. Wolf have published a study showing that warming climate over the next 5 years will increase the amount of damaging insects that will annually infect 200 people with Zika, killing 10 of them.  The same warming will create another 200,000 hectares of arable land to produce food that will feed 500,000 people."

What we're getting now is "Warming is bad.  People are going to die.  Cities will be flooded.  The end of the world is near, well, in 50 years anyway."  All bad news and all one sided.  In order for societies to make good judgments on where government should spend their money, we need good facts that are not tainted with one-side hyperbole.  That's all I'm asking for.

Some of the less desirable things moving in northerly direction:
Ticks moving north

Alligator caught in Toronto's High Park pond

It took the wildlife officials 4 hours to catch the almost 3 foot long reptile. Good thing I never swim there.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1407 on: March 16, 2017, 12:02:39 am »

Some of the less desirable things moving in northerly direction:
Ticks moving north

Alligator caught in Toronto's High Park pond

It took the wildlife officials 4 hours to catch the almost 3 foot long reptile. Good thing I never swim there.


Thanks for making my point about the one-sidedness in media of global warming effects.  Only the negatives are indicated. 

OK, there are more ticks going north  because of global warming.  But that's happening because the animals blood they feed on to live and reproduce are the mice and deer that are first moving into the new territory.  The deer and rodents are now able to live in those areas because it's warmer.  That means that deer and rodent populations are expanding.  It also means the coyote, wolf, birds who need more warm weather, insects that feed on ticks, and thousands of other species are expanding there too.  That's a plus for nature. It also means the people may be able to plant food when before the cold weather did not allow it.   More deer provide game for hunters to provide food for their tables.

Like I said, newspapers print negative news.  It's what sells.  The one-sidedness of it makes it seems like warming can only be bad.  But it isn't.  There are winners as well as losers when the climate changes.   Think out of the box.  Don't get caught up in just the headline.  You're smarter than that.   Nature and the environment isn't static.  One thing effects others.  But across the board. 

LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1408 on: March 16, 2017, 12:31:31 am »

I know newspapers like to print negative news. Especially when a car hits an elk or moose in a new suburb which used to be before their territory.

But unless you are a tick or mosquito, there are not too many positive sides to the warmer temperatures.
Being vegetarian and urban farmer, the deer and rodents are actually not that desirable around my house. And the ice hole in my backyard used before to preserve meat and frozen juice, melts much earlier than in the previous years. Well, at least the wolves and coyotes are not attracted to the cache anymore.

I've seen sometime deer between the trees they left beside the road as corridors between the parks, but we are not allowed to use guns and traps in this neighbourhood. However, those ticks, deer flies and mosquitos can ruin an otherwise nice day. Even worse, Canada geese are not migrating anymore south, but poop all year around on our lawns and sidewalks. But as long as there is water left in the Great Lakes, we can paddle around and pretend we are fishing.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1409 on: March 16, 2017, 12:46:21 am »

Where do you live, Les?  Your profile indicates Lauderdale by the Sea, FL.

We've had Canada geese poop for years down here in NY and NJ since it warmed up.  Now that it's getting even warmer, maybe it will get better here if they stay up there where you live.   Like I said there are winners and losers with climate change.  :)

LesPalenik

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1410 on: March 16, 2017, 01:10:43 am »

Actually, I am in Toronto now, trying to decide which snow shovel I should use to clear my driveway. As it happens, the expected snow storm veered off in your direction, so we didn't get much snow after all. Well, Montreal further east got its good share - some 40cm of snow.

Yes, despite all the global warming trends, Toronto is still too cold for a good part of the year.  So whenever I can, I like to escape from the cold white north and Florida is a convenient and pleasant location. I just came back from another place with palm trees and blooming rhododendrons, albeit the palm trees were really tiny. Green grass everywhere, but too many wet days for walking around with a camera. Ireland just can't compare in the winter with southern Florida.
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Damon Lynch

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1411 on: March 16, 2017, 01:11:37 am »

Like I said there are winners and losers with climate change.  :)

Among the "losers", a decisive acceleration in the mass extinction of non-human species, which when combined with massive human migration, leads to potentially catastrophic consequences for human populations.
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laughingbear

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1412 on: March 16, 2017, 01:42:28 am »

Quote
Global warming will accelerate all sorts of chemical processes, but most in the wrong direction, and towards an acceleration that may be unstoppable.

Morning,

Good news for a change, woke up to a world without a Wilders government! Thanks Dutchies. :)

There is no doubt that positive, hence amplifying, feedback loops, or a cascading effect as you mentioned, will accelerate the change of ecosystems on the planet. Probably the easiest to understand +FL is this known fact here:

https://nas-sites.org/americasclimatechoices/files/2012/10/Figure-9.jpg

Rising temperatures and loss of ice affect water availability, bio diversity, cause eco system boundary shifts, and global feedbacks such as monsoonal shifts, loss of soil carbon etc.

These are indisputable cascading effects observed in the greater Himalaya region, holding the largest mass of ice outside the polar regions, and being the source of ten of the largest rivers in Asia.

All these effects are interrelated, hence they are full of uncertainty. Only a fool or totally ignorant person would claim that the uncertain effects will not be devastating. The increased frequency and duration of extreme events is already more than obvious.   

Btw. as this is a photography forum, some of you folks might not have heard this amazing story, well worth your time to read and look into, it is one of the most fascinating stories in photography I ever came across back in 2007. I remember an evening with Michael where I pointed him to James Balog, and you betcha, he was equally "jaw-dropped."

http://extremeicesurvey.org

Best
G
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 01:50:40 am by laughingbear »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1413 on: March 16, 2017, 01:48:19 am »

Actually, I am in Toronto now, trying to decide which snow shovel I should use to clear my driveway. As it happens, the expected snow storm veered off in your direction, so we didn't get much snow after all. Well, Montreal further east got its good share - some 40cm of snow.

Yes, despite all the global warming trends, Toronto is still too cold for a good part of the year.  So whenever I can, I like to escape from the cold white north and Florida is a convenient and pleasant location. I just came back from another place with palm trees and blooming rhododendrons, albeit the palm trees were really tiny. Green grass everywhere, but too many wet days for walking around with a camera. Ireland just can't compare in the winter with southern Florida.
I know a lot of Canadians travel to Florida to get away from the cold. If global warming really kicks in, you may be able to use beach front property on Lake Ontario and skip Florida completely during the winter.  :)

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1414 on: March 16, 2017, 01:49:19 am »

Among the "losers", a decisive acceleration in the mass extinction of non-human species, which when combined with massive human migration, leads to potentially catastrophic consequences for human populations.
Well the deer, ticks and mice seem to be doing better.

laughingbear

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1415 on: March 16, 2017, 01:55:54 am »

Watch THIS:

Columbia Glacier May 2007 - June 2015

https://vimeo.com/extremeice/videos/all/page:1
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 02:06:23 am by laughingbear »
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1416 on: March 16, 2017, 02:21:47 am »

http://www.livescience.com/28406-arctic-tundra-turning-green.html  Warming Tundra allows more things to grow and good for people.

Did you actually bother to read the whole article? I'm asking because your stated conclusion is a bit different than what the article says:

Quote
Real effect

The findings match forecasts for Arctic greening predicted by various other methods, and they foreshadow effects that will strike closer to home later, Forbes said.

"What's happening now in the Arctic is a faster version of what will be happening at lower latitudes," Forbes told LiveScience.

That could worsen extreme weather events like Hurricane Sandy in the future.

"The snowstorms in Washington, D.C., and New York, and the flooding and the freezing on the River Thames — the extreme weather will continue to be extreme but it won't be so uncommon," Forbes said.

If that's your idea as something that is "good for people", I think we live in different realities...

Look, I live in Chicago...this winter we had no measurable snow in Jan & Feb. First time in 147 years...we also set a record for 5 days above 65º in Feb. Is that a good thing? Well, for Chicago I suppose...it means we spend less on snow removal and salt for roads. But I would trade that for the climate to be stabilized...

Here are some articles that point out some of the risks of ignoring what climate scientists tell us:

Climate Security: Building National Security
Climate change is a national security threat that America’s military, and militaries around the world are taking seriously. The science around climate security is definitive enough for action: the military knows that you cannot have 100% certainty before acting.

Climate change alone will not cause wars, but it serves as an “Accelerant of Instability” or a “Threat Multiplier” that makes already existing threats worse. The threat of global warming for security will manifest through a range of effects: resource scarcity, extreme weather, food scarcity, water insecurity, and sea level rise will all threaten societies around the world. Too many governments are not prepared for these threats, either because they do not have the resources or because they have not planned ahead. How societies and governments respond to the increase in instability will determine whether climate change will lead to war.



Global Drought Information System
At the end of September 2016, La Nina conditions are expected during the Northern Hemisphere fall and winter, according to the NOAA. According to NOAA, September 2016 was the second hottest September in the 137 year record at 1.29C above average. In Europe, drought conditions expanded through Central Europe and up to the North Sea. For the second month in a row, the European Union’s crop monitoring service lowered the corn yield forecast for this year. In Asia, drought continues throughout central Russia and a ring from the Indian sub-Continent around eastern China and Mongolia. In China, drought in the northwestern Gansu Province led to implementation of the government’s level-IV emergency response plan. In Africa, short-term drought eased slightly in the western part of the continent while continuing to strongly impact South Africa. In South Africa, there has been a culling of hippo and buffalo herds due to the poor condition of vegetation. In North America, drought remains entrenched along the western coast as well as through New England and the US Southeast. In the US Northeast, the apple crop has suffered due to the drought with noticeably smaller fruit produced this year. In South America, drought continues in Brazil as well as from the equator down along the Andes. Irrigation water for farms was restricted in Espirito Santo, where rivers were largely dry. In Oceania, drought continued nearly unchanged.


Bacteria, Methane, and Other Dangers Within Siberia’s Melting Permafrost
FOR HUNDREDS OF thousands of years, the Siberian permafrost has been a giant freezer for everything buried within it. But global warming has put the frozen ground in defrost mode, and the tundra is now heating up twice as fast as the rest of the planet. “Permafrost is a silent ticking time bomb,” says Robert Spencer, an environmental scientist at Florida State University. As it thaws, the dirt could release a litany of horrors. Beware: The ice-beasts cometh.



The Great Barrier Reef is bleaching yet again, and scientists say only swift climate action can save it

Last year the Great Barrier Reef — the largest coral structure on Earth — saw unprecedented bleaching due to extremely warm ocean temperatures. In major parts of the remote northern sector of the reef, two-thirds of the corals ultimately died.

This was the reef’s third and worst severe bleaching event — prior events occurred in 1998 and 2002. But now, scientists say, yet another event is unfolding that is also quite severe, meaning that the reef is experiencing its first back-to-back bleaching in two successive years.

“This one won’t be as bad as 2016, but it could be more comparable to 1998 or 2002,” said Terry Hughes, the lead author of the new study and director of the ARC Centre of Excellence in Coral Reef Studies at James Cook University in Townsville, Australia. “It’s an open question whether it’s the third- or second-most-severe.”[/i]


Flooding of Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Flooding of Coast, Caused by Global Warming, Has Already Begun
NORFOLK, Va. — Huge vertical rulers are sprouting beside low spots in the streets here, so people can judge if the tidal floods that increasingly inundate their roads are too deep to drive through.

Five hundred miles down the Atlantic Coast, the only road to Tybee Island, Ga., is disappearing beneath the sea several times a year, cutting the town off from the mainland.

And another 500 miles on, in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., increased tidal flooding is forcing the city to spend millions fixing battered roads and drains — and, at times, to send out giant vacuum trucks to suck saltwater off the streets.

For decades, as the global warming created by human emissions caused land ice to melt and ocean water to expand, scientists warned that the accelerating rise of the sea would eventually imperil the United States’ coastline.



Greenland's huge annual ice loss is even worse than thought
The huge annual losses of ice from the Greenland cap are even worse than thought, according to new research which also shows that the melt is not a short-term blip but a long-term trend.

The melting Greenland ice sheet is already a major contributor to rising sea level and if it was eventually lost entirely, the oceans would rise by six metres around the world, flooding many of the world’s largest cities.

The new study reveals a more accurate estimate of the ice loss by taking better account of the gradual rise of the entire Greenland landmass. When the ice cap was at its peak 20,000 years ago, its great weight depressed the hot, viscous rocks in the underlying mantle. As ice has been shed since, the island has slowly rebounded upwards.



E.P.A. Warns of High Cost of Climate Change
WASHINGTON — In the absence of global action to curb greenhouse gas emissions, the United States by the end of the century may face up to $180 billion in economic losses because of drought and water shortages, according to a report released Monday by the White House and Environmental Protection Agency.

White House officials said the report, which analyzes the economic costs of a changing climate across 20 sectors of the American economy, is the most comprehensive effort to date to quantify the impacts of global warming.


(Note: This was about the former EPA, not the EPA that will be decimated by Scott Pruitt)

And speaking of the orange one, global warming is not a plot by the Chinese to put American industry at a disadvantage as he tweeted in 2012 "The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive."


Heck, even Exxon knew about climate change SINCE 1981! Exxon knew of climate change in 1981, email says – but it funded deniers for 27 more years
ExxonMobil, the world’s biggest oil company, knew as early as 1981 of climate change – seven years before it became a public issue, according to a newly discovered email from one of the firm’s own scientists. Despite this the firm spent millions over the next 27 years to promote climate denial.

The email from Exxon’s in-house climate expert provides evidence the company was aware of the connection between fossil fuels and climate change, and the potential for carbon-cutting regulations that could hurt its bottom line, over a generation ago – factoring that knowledge into its decision about an enormous gas field in south-east Asia. The field, off the coast of Indonesia, would have been the single largest source of global warming pollution at the time.


And to add a touch of real weirdness, it now comes out that our current Sec of State Rex Tillerson used an alias email address while at the oil company to send and receive information related to climate change. Wait, what?


Tillerson used email alias at Exxon to talk climate: New York attorney general
U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, the former chairman and chief executive of Exxon Mobil Corp, used an alias email address while at the oil company to send and receive information related to climate change and other matters, according to New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman.

The attorney general's office said in a letter on Monday that it found Tillerson had used an alias email address under the pseudonym "Wayne Tracker" from at least 2008 through 2015.

Wayne is Tillerson's middle name.

The letter was sent to a New York state judge overseeing Schneiderman's investigation into whether Exxon misled shareholders and the public about climate change.



But why do people deny climate change is real, is being caused by human activity and will, eventually ruin the planet?

Well, an article in the same web site you pointed to has an interesting take: Evolution, Climate and Vaccines: Why Americans Deny Science
The U.S. has a science problem. Around half of the country's citizens reject the facts of evolution; fewer than a third agree there is a scientific consensus on human-caused climate change, and the number who accept the importance of vaccines is ticking downward.

Those numbers, all gleaned from recent Pew and Gallup research polls, might suggest that Americans are an anti-science bunch. But yet, Americans love science. Even as many in the U.S. reject certain scientific conclusions, National Science Foundation surveys have found that public support of science is high, with more than 75 percent of Americans saying they are in favor of taxpayer-funded basic research.



Kinda interesting to lump evolution, climate and vaccine deniers together, but it makes sense when you read the article and look at the research. A lot of the way people look at climate change is based on where they are. This is also an interesting take: What the world thinks about climate change in 7 charts

The 7 charts reveal the following...
1) Majorities in all 40 nations polled say climate change is a serious problem, and a global median of 54% believe it is a very serious problem.

2) People in countries with high per-capita levels of carbon emissions are less intensely concerned about climate change.

3) A global median of 51% say climate change is already harming people around the world, while another 28% believe it will do so in the next few years.

4) Drought tops the list of climate change concerns.

5) Most people in the countries surveyed say rich nations should do more than developing nations to address climate change.

6) To deal with climate change, most think changes in both policy and lifestyle will be necessary.

7) Americans’ views about climate issues divide sharply along partisan lines.

In the grand scheme of things, it's all very well and good to debate political viewpoints and argue about policies and economics and conservative vs progressive mindsets. Happy to do so in a civil manner, but I really REALLY will not "debate" the very real and serious problem facing humanity–probably the single most important problem which is climate change–for the worse. The science is widely accepted–even Exxon accepts it.

Yeah, some oddball and fruitcake scientists are climate deniers but oddly, there's an scary relationship between climate deniers and controls on tobacco and acid rain.


Climate sceptics are recycled critics of controls on tobacco and acid rain

If experts cannot agree that there is a climate crisis, why should governments spend billions of dollars to address it?

The fact is that the critics — who are few in number but aggressive in their attacks — are deploying tactics that they have honed for more than 25 years. During their long campaign, they have greatly exaggerated scientific disagreements in order to stop action on climate change, with special interests like Exxon Mobil footing the bill.

Many books have recently documented the games played by the climate-change deniers. Merchants of Doubt, a new book by Naomi Oreskes and Erik Conway set for release in mid-2010, will be an authoritative account of their misbehaviour. The authors show that the same group of mischief-makers, given a platform by the free-market ideologues of The Wall Street Journal's editorial page, has consistently tried to confuse the public and discredit the scientists whose insights are helping to save the world from unintended environmental harm.

Today's campaigners against action on climate change are in many cases backed by the same lobbies, individuals, and organisations that sided with the tobacco industry to discredit the science linking smoking and lung cancer. Later, they fought the scientific evidence that sulphur oxides from coal-fired power plants were causing "acid rain." Then, when it was discovered that certain chemicals called chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) were causing the depletion of ozone in the atmosphere, the same groups launched a nasty campaign to discredit that science, too.



So, are you a climate change denier? Do you deny that people are dying of starvation caused by severe drought? Do you deny that superstorms like Sandy cost billions of $? Do you deny the sea levels have risen? That coastal areas are at risk of disappearing? Do you deny that global warming and climate change is and will continue to be a bit problem for humanity? Or don't you give a crap?
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1417 on: March 16, 2017, 02:25:28 am »

Btw. as this is a photography forum, some of you folks might not have heard this amazing story, well worth your time to read and look into, it is one of the most fascinating stories in photography I ever came across back in 2007. I remember an evening with Michael where I pointed him to James Balog, and you betcha, he was equally "jaw-dropped."

http://extremeicesurvey.org

Cool...thanks for the link!
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laughingbear

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1418 on: March 16, 2017, 02:34:10 am »

Jeff:
Quote
I really REALLY will not "debate" the very real and serious problem facing humanity–probably the single most important problem which is climate change–for the worse

I made that error a few times, to debate with deniers, not anymore. It is plain ridiculous and a waste of time to listen to the convoluted crap they come up with to claim that the "Anthropocene" is what.... a Chinese Invention, or Putin Hack perhaps.

Thank you too for the links, useful Information.

If the dramatic developments in the Himalaya Region continue, 1 billion people will be directly affected, facing life threatening lack of fresh water, and THIS will be the real refugee crisis, the current "crisis" is a kindergarden against what is to come when environmental refugees start packing their bags.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 02:39:19 am by laughingbear »
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stamper

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1419 on: March 16, 2017, 05:09:51 am »

Another slap in the face.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2017/mar/16/trump-travel-ban-blocked-nationwide-hawaii-court-live

His incompetence is astounding but I am sure there are people who will still support him. :-[ :'(
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