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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 918197 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1320 on: March 14, 2017, 11:48:59 am »

Alan,

I am thinking about your comment, "If it only keeps out one terrorist who would blow himself up in a crowded American marketplace, it's worth it.

If I would logically follow up on that, if one gun is used to kill we should ban all guns, if one person dies due to lack of access to healthcare we should have healthcare for everyone. There should be zero tolerance for any type of pollution, I think you see where I am going with this. By the way, I don't think we should ban all guns although the process to obtain them is woefully inadequate and I do believe there should be universal healthcare.

There is risk, I don't think anyone denies this but it must be weighed against the suffering and death of tens of thousands of people who we could help. The current vetting process is 2 years long, it is already "extreme" and none of the countries being banned by the President had people involved in 9-11. Our "local" terrorists have been in this country for years, many of them are Christian Fundamentalists or other "religious" groups. The truth is we cannot prevent every instance of terrorism or any other harmful thing, although we have been doing a pretty good job of it.

Bastardization of religion has been an excuse used for millennia to claim some moral superiority over others, making them "less human" and justifying their extinction.

My condolences on the loss of your niece, I live just outside NYC and know many people who lost loved ones or who narrowly escaped their own death.

I believe we make the world a more peaceful and safer place by reaching out a helpful hand rather than slamming a door in the face of those who need help.

Jim
Thanks for your condolences.  Regarding the EO and other issues, I'm sorry if my posts made it seem like I don't care about other people.  That's not true although I put my family and country first.  The EO does not ban people including Syrians who have lost their homes or other Muslims who wish to emigrate or just visit the US.  What it does is put a three month time-out on issuing new visas, not a terribly onerous process.  During this period, the government is suppose to develop better vetting procedures so when the issuance of visas is restored,  more thorough vetting is followed. 

As an American citizen, the last time I flew domestically in the US between New Jersey and Florida, I, like all Americans had to go through a pre-boarding check.  I took my shoes off so they could see if I had a shoe bomb.  They X-rayed my carry-ons, metal detected my entire body.  They even swiped my palm with a brush container chemicals that would tell them if I handled explosive materials beforehand.  They did that even though I had an American passport and photo ID showing I'm a citizen.  If I can be inconvenienced like that for a domestic flight, certainly we can expect some serious vetting before letting in potential terrorists.  If they're inconvenienced, well, sorry about that.  We're all effected by the terrorism problem. 

Finally, it's easy to be sanguine about what a terrorist might do until it's someone in your family who was killed.  Caring about your fellow citizens should be at least as important as caring about foreigners. 

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1321 on: March 14, 2017, 12:38:49 pm »

The point isn't that it's happening right now, the point is that you've been making the argument that Islam is uniquely violent and terroristic...

I am not making that general argument. I am making the argument that the original, medieval interpretation of Islam is STILL uniquely violent. All other religions outgrew their medieval versions hundreds of years ago. Also, because it was repeated so many times as a straw-man argument, let me be clear: I never said all Muslims are violent or medieval. Just that the particular, original, violent interpretation of Islam has reached a critical mass, enough to pose a serious danger world-wide. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of imams engaged in radicalization, tens of thousands armed fighters, hundreds of thousands in the immediate supporting network, and millions of quiet supporters on the sidelines (some of which can't wait to jump into the fray). And that is world-wide. Other religious conflicts are relatively local (like Northern Ireland), or spurred by exceptional circumstances (like wars - e.g. creation of concentration camps for Orthodox Christians, Jews and Gypsies by Catholics in my former home country). No other contemporary religion can claim such organizational and ideological reach (for its medieval version - the Catholic church has both, but has luckily abandoned its violent side). As horrible as lynchings and KKK were, they were relatively local and never reached any ideological or religious mainstream support. One more thing: Islam today is blurring the lines between state and church, religion and ideology. No other contemporary religion can claim that (though I am sure they wouldn't mind, if they could). It was Iran's supreme religious and state ruler that issued fatwa against Salman Rushdie, not some raghead lunatic. It is Saudi Arabia that still today beheads, stones unfaithful women, cuts limbs and publicly lashes. It is SA and Iran that still support terrorist organizations world-wide, more or less overtly (see my previous link about Saudis' link to Kosovo). And spontaneous public lynchings for religious reasons still happen in many Muslim countries today.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 12:41:54 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Rob C

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1322 on: March 14, 2017, 12:46:47 pm »

The price is going to go up until Americans pick up the slack. That's the whole point. Raising incomes through jobs, not welfare.


Great idea Slobodan, but there's a fly in that Vaseline: lots of people simply can't afford to pay what it takes for a first-world worker to do some jobs.

The UK hotel industry is heavily dependent of foreign workers to clean, wait, cook and do all sorts of things that the "true-Brit" ain't gonna do at the price, come what may. Expell foreign workers, and overnight you'd close hundeds of hotels, just like that, in the words of one Tommy Cooper. There's huge competition in the hotel trade, and the Internet search/compare sites have made that worse still; prices are pared down to the wire. Raise salaries and there'd be no place to go, for many of them, other than down the tubes, and then there'd be no place for the tourists to go, who are just as worried about stretching their wallet as anybody else today.

The Health Service also runs on help from many, many Asian doctors and nurses and Caribbean folks too; even with their level of accepted wages the service can't stay out of debt. What you're suggesting, in fact, is a version of the dream of Communism, but based on a more affluent level, which as you know perfectly well, can't work in a real world.

As with the manufacture of cameras sliding away from Japan itself to factories in Thailand, it's not done for love but for survival. As I've mentioned before when folks dream about filling the Rust Belt with brand new mills and factories, it'll not happen until the Far East has become too expensive too, and then maybe, just maybe, there's a chance sense and economics will prevail and folks accept the good olde days are over and they are going to have to work to new rules or not at all.  By hey, Ford is opening a Lincoln factory in China to make SUV stuff to local tastes... so Mexico is out, but not China. Over to you, Don: what you gonna do this time?

Otto Phocus

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1323 on: March 14, 2017, 01:23:36 pm »

One of my favourite quotes

Quote
You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered.
Lyndon B. Johnson
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1324 on: March 14, 2017, 01:26:59 pm »

..lots of people simply can't afford to pay what it takes for a first-world worker to do some jobs...

You mean some poor middle-class American would need to get off his fat a$$, drop the remote and Budweiser, and go mow his own lawn? Or that Brits would need to spend their welfare checks and crawl and puke on British streets, instead of Spanish ones?  Excuse me while I go get a tissue.

If an industry can't survive without slave-like conditions for its workers, then it shouldn't. Hotels? Most of them are corporate owned. And corporations today sit on historical piles of cash and profits, so there is room for some trickle down. This time, as I said, via better paid jobs, not welfare. Not to forget, those better paid workers will send that money back into the economy, local economy, not foreign lands.

Less tourism? Good. Barcelona is already overflowing.


« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 03:39:11 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1325 on: March 14, 2017, 01:29:43 pm »

Instead of the press using good editorial judgment, the liberal media try to find the most base interpretation to try to make him look bad.  Everyday they keep piling on.  Everything is a negative; nothing he does is positive.



Then there's this...

Fox News: Pro-Journalism Newspaper Slogans Are ‘Anti-Trump Rhetoric’

Ok...so...

Quote
According to Fox News, pro-journalism slogans like “Journalism Matters” are “anti-Trump.” A Fox & Friends First news report Tuesday fretted over “newspapers cashing in on T-shirts splashed with anti-president rhetoric,” citing The Washington Post’s “Democracy Dies in Darkness,” the Los Angeles Times’s “Journalism Matters,” and the Chicago Tribune’s “Speaking Truth to Power Since 1847” as examples of “media bias on full display.”

So, Fox and Friends (Trump's favorite TV show it seems) views any pro media slogans as anti-Trump?

Guess they forgot about Breitbart's Store


That's a useful sentiment huh?

Yeah, you keep telling yourself that Trump is gonna Make America Great Again. I hope you are right but fear you are wrong, very, very wrong.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1326 on: March 14, 2017, 01:30:23 pm »

Care to explain this hyperbole?

Just so that you wouldn't think I am ignoring you, see my reply to James above, page 67, #1336 :)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2017, 12:57:14 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1327 on: March 14, 2017, 03:14:44 pm »

It is true that the conservative press attacked Obama, often unfairly.  The difference is the rest of the press making up about 90% of it, loved Obama.  To Liberal media, he could do no wrong.  They protected him constantly.  He could do no wrong.  With Trump and most Republicans and conservative politicians, most of the media is not so kind.  We get it.  That's why we call it fake news.
C'mon Allen, It's not 90% and FOX is the champion of fake news, not the mainstream other media. And there were critical points on Obama in the mainstream media as well (and rightfully so in some cases). I know you're trying to make a point, but exaggeration doesn't help your case.
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pieter, aka pegelli

pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1328 on: March 14, 2017, 03:17:41 pm »

Just so that you wouldn't think I am ignoring you, see my reply to James above, page 37, #1336 :)
Thanks, I see where you're coming from. It's probably semantic, but higher numbers and more widespread only makes it more serious (and I agree with that), but in my mind it doesn't make it a false equivalence. A killing in the name of the Koran is equally bad as a killing in the name of the bible.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1329 on: March 14, 2017, 03:54:15 pm »

C'mon Allen, It's not 90% and FOX is the champion of fake news, not the mainstream other media. And there were critical points on Obama in the mainstream media as well (and rightfully so in some cases). I know you're trying to make a point, but exaggeration doesn't help your case.
OK.  It might be only 85% that's liberal and Democrat biased.

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1330 on: March 14, 2017, 04:00:52 pm »

How do I prevent Obama or the Russians from tapping in to my "smart"  camera that can connect to the internet with Wi-Fi.  I'm not concerned about my microwave?  It's "dumb".

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1331 on: March 14, 2017, 04:13:47 pm »

How do I prevent Obama or the Russians from tapping in to my "smart"  camera that can connect to the internet with Wi-Fi.  I'm not concerned about my microwave?  It's "dumb".

Follow the FBI Director's advice from a year ago: he said he puts a black tape over his computer or phone camera lens when not in use.

pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1332 on: March 14, 2017, 04:17:44 pm »

How do I prevent Obama or the Russians from tapping in to my "smart"  camera that can connect to the internet with Wi-Fi.  I'm not concerned about my microwave?  It's "dumb".
Put it in airplane mode (when WiFi not needed). But you won't need it for protection from Obama and the Russians, I'd be much more worried about Erdogan and Trump ;)
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pieter, aka pegelli

pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1333 on: March 14, 2017, 04:23:39 pm »

OK.  It might be only 85% that's liberal and Democrat biased.
Indeed, sometimes humour can be your best defense ;)
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pieter, aka pegelli

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1334 on: March 14, 2017, 05:52:49 pm »

How do I prevent Obama or the Russians from tapping in to my "smart"  camera that can connect to the internet with Wi-Fi.  I'm not concerned about my microwave?  It's "dumb".

Put your camera in the microwave and select "popcorn"...that'll keep "them" from tapping your camera. Oh, wait...you want to keep using your camera? Well, all you have to do is disable wi-fi - DOH!
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1335 on: March 14, 2017, 06:07:28 pm »

So, no direct evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia on fixing the election but there sure is a lot of smoke about Trump/Putin connections...

All of Trump’s Russia Ties, in 7 Charts

Quote
What is the real story of Donald Trump and Russia? The answer is still unclear, and Democrats in Congress want to get to the bottom of it with an investigation. But there’s no doubt that a spider web of connections—some public, some private, some clear, some murky—exists between Trump, his associates and Russian President Vladimir Putin.

I'll let you decide whether to view the charts but it's pretty impressive that there are so many connections. And there's no doubt that it will provide fodder that will plague Trump's admin for a long time. He better hope all of the investigations don't actually find compelling evidence of collusion between Trump and the Russians...pretty sure that would be an impeachable offense :~(

And yes, the charts are on http://www.politico.com and by Alan's perspective #FAKENEWS, but the charts represent verifiable "facts", you know, things that are "real" and not "alternative"?

Edited to remove over large graphic–sorry!
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 06:14:15 pm by Schewe »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1336 on: March 14, 2017, 06:12:06 pm »

So, no direct evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia on fixing the election but there sure is a lot of smoke about Trump/Putin connections...

I'll let you decide whether to view the charts but it's pretty impressive that there are so many connections. And there's no doubt that it will provide fodder that will plague Trump's admin for a long time. He better hope all of the investigations don't actually find compelling evidence of collusion between Trump and the Russians...pretty sure that would be an impeachable offense :~(


Makes me think of this wonderful game of a few years ago.

The Bacon Number
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1337 on: March 14, 2017, 06:18:10 pm »

Makes me think of this wonderful game of a few years ago.

The Bacon Number

Yep, but if you look at the charts, they don't need to go 6 degrees of separation...more like one or two degrees of separation.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1338 on: March 14, 2017, 06:30:43 pm »

Yep, but if you look at the charts, they don't need to go 6 degrees of separation...more like one or two degrees of separation.

What's your point? 

Does the fact that I, someone whom has no political connections, could, in theory, have a very high probability of having only six degrees of separation from Putin prove I am a traitor? 

If you could find 5 other people who connect me to Putin, which is a very real possibility, I would not be surprised by anyone in politics having only two degrees of separation from another political opponent, even in another country. 

Plus I believe it was Obama that said, "the 80s called, they want their foreign policies back" in response to Romney's Russia position in 2012.  Trump has been campaigning on better ties with Russia, just like Obama in 2008 and 2012.  I am not surprise by either one talking with Russia due to try and make this happen and I firm believe that, like Trump said and Obama supported from 2008 to 2013, anyone who does not want better ties with Russia is stupid.   

Show the proof that Trump actually conspired with Putin to rig the election, until then those who claim this is the case are at the same level as conspiracy theorists, because that is all this is right now, a conspiracy theory. 

I feel like I am the dinner table with my father who still insist Lee Harvey Oswald had nothing to do with it and bases his opinions off of the movie JFK. 
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1339 on: March 14, 2017, 07:33:57 pm »

What's your point? 

Does the fact that I, someone whom has no political connections, could, in theory, have a very high probability of having only six degrees of separation from Putin prove I am a traitor?

Did you look at the charts? It ain't 6 degrees of separation doode, it's one or two degrees of separation.

So far there's no proof of collusion but as far as I know, the investigation is ongoing (as in not finished). But we do know that Trump and Russian entanglements are causing Trump a lot of grief...which could be largely mitigated if he released his tax returns (like he said he would at one point in time) proving he doesn't have business ties to Russia...

But that wouldn't address the fact that the Trump campaign demanded the removal of certain language supporting Ukrainian fight against Russian aggression. Hum Why?

Carter Page, Roger Stone and Paul Manafort have direct Russian ties– Manafort in particular may have actual blood on his hands (Donald Trump's former campaign manager accused of playing part in Ukrainian mass killings).

Then there's Sergei Millian (US-Russian Businessman Said to Be Source of Key Trump Dossier Claims) and Felix H. Sater (A Back-Channel Plan for Ukraine and Russia, Courtesy of Trump Associates and the Trump/Russian/Putin connections become far, far more than can possibly explained by 6 degrees of separation...

Esquire (are they #FAKENEWS?) has a rundown of "connections":

All of the Trump Administration's Ties to Russia (That We Know About)
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