Trump II

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

  So now you want to divert attention from mean spirited violence against Turks in the Netherlands.   While you castigate the Trump administration, the liberal Dutch are using batons, horse charges and water cannon on Muslims.  For shame. 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3069645/dutch-riot-cops-batons-water-canon-horse-charges-turkish-protesters-rotterdam/

Come on, Alan, you are making a mountain out of a molehill... that's just a dozen of mentally-unstable creating trouble. No way would third-generation Dutch citizens pledge more allegiance to a foreign ruler than to their third-generation homeland. Right?

[Schewe]

Then there's this...



Trump voters would be among the biggest losers in Republicans' Obamacare replacement plan

So, all those Trump voters that thought he would Make America Great Again are going to pay for their vote...but at least they won't have to worry about Hillary's Private Email Server–thank goodness!

[Alan Klein]

Come on, Alan, you are making a mountain out of a molehill... that's just a dozen of mentally-unstable creating trouble. No way would third-generation Dutch citizens pledge more allegiance to a foreign ruler than to their third-generation homeland. Right?

Exactly what we don't want here.  But the hypocrisy of Europeans who attack Trump while they beat up Muslims and marginalize them is pretty amazing.  I suppose it's easier for them to point a finger than take responsibility for their own problems.   

The truth is however, I don't think America has or would have the same problems.  America is a nation of immigrants. While we all practice  the culture of parents and grandparents in our homes and local communities, most of us, Muslims included, are American in the public square or trying to become so.  Europe has a bigger problem.  Most countries there, like England, France, Germany, The Netherlands, yes, even Sweden have been homogenized for centuries.  Substantial immigration is relatively new for them.  So they have trouble accepting "foreigners" as their own, even when they become citizens.  The immigrants feel the prejudice and stay apart in their original groups.  They don't integrate and become real citizens.   I'm not saying America doesn't have problems.  But I feel we deal with it better because of our immigrant past and present.  Immigrants want to become part of the American dream as America is not only a country.  It's a state of mind. 

[Alan Klein]

Trump voters would be among the biggest losers in Republicans' Obamacare replacement plan

So, all those Trump voters that thought he would Make America Great Again are going to pay for their vote...but at least they won't have to worry about Hillary's Private Email Server–thank goodness!

I agree.   Trumpcare will break the bank as fast as Obamacare.  Obama won 7 years ago.  Universal health coverage paid by the government through taxes (and printing) may be the only way to resolve this whole issue.  If legislation doesn't pass at all, Obamacare will implode on its own.  The question is, who's going to get the blame?  Democrats for unilaterally writing such bad legislation in the first place?  Or Republicans for not doing anything about it imploding?  It's going to be a mess.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...I don't think America has or would have the same problems...

Yet.

Muslim percentage is just about 1% now. It will double by 2050 (as they use weaponized natality) and, incidentally, overtake American Jews. Compare that with Europe, which will have about 10-20% by 2050.

[Alan Klein]

Yet.

Muslim percentage is just about 1% now. It will double by 2050 (as they use weaponized natality) and, incidentally, overtake American Jews. Compare that with Europe, which will have about 10-20% by 2050.

  So by 2050 it would be 2% here in America vs. 10-20% in Europe.  That's a big difference.  In any case, I still feel that America has a unique ability to subsume immigrant cultural and religious allegiances better than Europe.  Our strong Constitution helps a lot.  What's harmful is when politicians use identity politics to divide us. 

[Rob C]

Exactly what we don't want here. But the hypocrisy of Europeans who attack Trump while they beat up Muslims and marginalize them is pretty amazing.  I suppose it's easier for them to point a finger than take responsibility for their own problems.   

The truth is however, I don't think America has or would have the same problems.  America is a nation of immigrants. While we all practice  the culture of parents and grandparents in our homes and local communities, most of us, Muslims included, are American in the public square or trying to become so.  Europe has a bigger problem.  Most countries there, like England, France, Germany, The Netherlands, yes, even Sweden have been homogenized for centuries.  Substantial immigration is relatively new for them.  So they have trouble accepting "foreigners" as their own, even when they become citizens.  The immigrants feel the prejudice and stay apart in their original groups.  They don't integrate and become real citizens.   I'm not saying America doesn't have problems.  But I feel we deal with it better because of our immigrant past and present.  Immigrants want to become part of the American dream as America is not only a country.  It's a state of mind.

Hate to say it Alan, but you live in a dream world. You simply don't have the least fucking idea what you are talking about. As for trying to hide shit behind percentages, get real. One percent of a vast number is one thing and ten percent of a far smaller number is infinitely more devastating a figure.

Parts of Europe have already lived under the Muslim yoke; the USA has never had that experience. Read some non-America-centic history and you'll be surprised at how widely the Islamist world has ruled in the past and you'll realise it's what it's trying to re-establish today, not only politically but religiously. Think about the latter particularly, and what that would imply for you and your faith. Why the hell do you think your countrymen have been dying abroad of late? You think petrol? You think for the safety from their own kind of a few towel-headed foreigners? For some photojournalist to make a fortune from snaps of a green-eyed girl in rags? Nope, for your own native protection at home, is why.

Tell me, how would you react to the Turkish government sending ministers into your state with the explicit intention of causing public riots in an endeavour to get votes from second- and even third-generation Turkish Americans (granted dual nationalities in some European countries- you see how badly and unfairly they get dealt with in Europe?!) to advance the dreams of its leader to turn into unchallengeable dictator?

Wake up. The alarm stopped ringing half-an-hour ago, time for that cold shower of reality.

[laughingbear]

But I feel we deal with it better because of our immigrant past and present.

That's why you have the IIRIRA, right? I guess you would call that tough, fair, and practical. 

Immigrants want to become part of the American dream as America is not only a country.  It's a state of mind.

Yeah well, if it becomes a state of mind, ever, it's time to consult a psychiatrist.

[stamper]

Can this be the same America that until the mid 1960's legally practised racial segregation including sending black women to prison for marrying white men??
Kettle Pot Black.

I will give Alan the benefit of the doubt. His posts are designed to stir things up???

[Alan Goldhammer]

US Attorneys in NY (Eastern and Southern Districts) often want to become elected politicians afterward or get appointed to higher positions.  It's the next step.  NYC Mayor Giuliani, NY Governor Eliot Spitzer, NY Governor Thomas Dewey, Attorney General of the US Loretta Lynch (appointed position), Director of the FBI James Comey, and many others were US Attorneys from NY as was Preet Bharara.

Spitzer was never a US Attorney but rather the Attorney General of New York which is an elected position.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

All right! I didn't know this.

Not to get too far off topic, but it also applies to the USA (e.g. Russian 'diplomats').

With regards to the Turkish minister of Family affairs. In International Law there is a basic principle of diplomatic immunity. The question was, does that also apply to her? The basic issue is that when you claim immunity, then that privilege has to originate from somewhere.

We do recognize Diplomatic immunity. That means that everybody who is allowed by the government to come to our country, e.g. as a diplomat (like embassy personnel), are granted immunity.

But this minister of Family affairs was not invited and was also told she was not welcome. That's why she was asked to leave the country, and when she refused and locked herself in her car for several hours, and finally a tow truck was about to take the armoured car away, she exited the car and was escorted by police to the German border, where she came from.

Others who do have immunity are e.g. heads of state or ministers of Foreign affairs, but that is very much defined according to International Law by the specific function of those officials who are an embodiment of their state. To execute the function of their office on behalf of their state, they must have immunity.

But a minister of Family affairs doesn't have to be in the Netherlands to execute her task, let alone come to our country to run a pro Erdogan campaign.

So there is no International Legal argument why she would be protected by immunity, unlike her colleague of Foreign affairs, but he was simply not allowed to enter the Dutch territory in an official capacity.

Good Luck with the Elections Bart! Let reason and wisdom be their guide.
 Excellent!

Unless something disruptive happens, I assume that reason will prevail with the majority of the people. We do have a system of majority voting, so each vote counts for one of the candidates of 28 (!) political parties on the list, and basically all nationals of 18 years and older are able to vote. The outcome, should normally not take more than a day to be known, despite the paper and pencil choice (to prevent the already increasing hacking attempts by foreign powers). Then those parties who's candidates have assembled enough votes will enter in a process of negotiations about who will form a coalition government for the next 4-years.

I'll be in Netherlands on 15th, having an extra large portion of Kibbeling.

Always a nice thing to do
Enjoy your visit.

Cheers,
Bart

[Otto Phocus]

The rules of Diplomatic Immunity are complicated and involve several different levels.

This document does a pretty good job is defining the different levels of diplomatic immunity

https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/150546.pdf

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

  So now you want to divert attention from mean spirited violence against Turks in the Netherlands.   While you castigate the Trump administration, the liberal Dutch are using batons, horse charges and water cannon on Muslims.  For shame. 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3069645/dutch-riot-cops-batons-water-canon-horse-charges-turkish-protesters-rotterdam/

Just trying to focus on the topic of this thread. But when an otherwise orderly demonstration starts getting out of hand, and some of the people do not wish to disperse as requested by the police and organizers, and start throwing rocks and bottles at the police and begin damaging store- and residential building windows, then yes the police will do their job of restoring law and order.

So I have no idea what you are rambling about. Let's not forget that this would not have been allowed in Turkey, people are jailed and tortured there for less, and 90% of the journalists are appointed by the government, and judges/teachers/politicians are fired or jailed without due process if they do not side with the government ...

Cheers,
Bart

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... when an otherwise orderly demonstration starts getting out of hand, and some of the people do not wish to disperse as requested by the police and organizers, and start throwing rocks and bottles at the police and begin damaging store- and residential building windows, then yes the police will do their job of restoring law and order...

You talking about Ferguson? 

If I remember correctly, the last time we did talk about Ferguson, your position was that it was... racist police, discriminating against blacks?

[pegelli]

You talking about Ferguson? 

If I remember correctly, the last time we did talk about Ferguson, your position was that it was... racist police, discriminating against blacks?

As far as I know there is quite a difference between arresting and rounding up troublemakers vs. killing the protestors. I have no problem with law and order but I think avoidance of excessive force could be a bit higher on the priority list of certain US police forces.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

You talking about Ferguson? 

If I remember correctly, the last time we did talk about Ferguson, your position was that it was... racist police, discriminating against blacks?

I have no idea what you are specifically talking about, but there are most likely a number of documented cases of racism and discrimination (against Indians, blacks, Mexicans, LBTGs, etc.), even under police officers. Does that make all police officers racists? I do not remember suggesting that, and it would surprise me, so maybe you can provide a link?

I do seem to remember that you thought that (then President) Obama should defend the police, regardless of their actions, when he was critical about those individuals who overstepped their authority.

Cheers,
Bart

Cheers,
Bart

[Alan Klein]

Hate to say it Alan, but you live in a dream world. You simply don't have the least fucking idea what you are talking about. As for trying to hide shit behind percentages, get real. One percent of a vast number is one thing and ten percent of a far smaller number is infinitely more devastating a figure.

Parts of Europe have already lived under the Muslim yoke; the USA has never had that experience. Read some non-America-centic history and you'll be surprised at how widely the Islamist world has ruled in the past and you'll realise it's what it's trying to re-establish today, not only politically but religiously. Think about the latter particularly, and what that would imply for you and your faith. Why the hell do you think your countrymen have been dying abroad of late? You think petrol? You think for the safety from their own kind of a few towel-headed foreigners? For some photojournalist to make a fortune from snaps of a green-eyed girl in rags? Nope, for your own native protection at home, is why.

Tell me, how would you react to the Turkish government sending ministers into your state with the explicit intention of causing public riots in an endeavour to get votes from second- and even third-generation Turkish Americans (granted dual nationalities in some European countries- you see how badly and unfairly they get dealt with in Europe?!) to advance the dreams of its leader to turn into unchallengeable dictator?

Wake up. The alarm stopped ringing half-an-hour ago, time for that cold shower of reality.

Thanks for making Trump's point better than he makes it.  He and many Americans, myself included, look across the ocean at Europe's Muslim problems, and say that's something we don't want here.  So he issues travel bans, and wants immigration policies that let people in "who want to love America and not be separate from it when they get here."  So why do Europeans so hate Trump?  He's just taking your position.  Yet you attack him when he mentions Sweden when his point is to show all the crime in Muslim areas of Europe.  Europeans who post here should be commending Trump for not wanting to follow the European path.  Instead, all we hear are knee-jerk reactions to Trump hating the very policies he wants to implement to avoid similar problems here. 

Finally, having lost my niece, my sister's only daughter,  to the terrorists on 9-11, I woke up a long time ago and took the cold shower of reality. 

[kers]

...Finally, having lost my niece, my sister's only daughter,  to the terrorists on 9-11, I woke up a long time ago and took the cold shower of reality...

Alan,
very sorry to hear that.
I can imagine your position has changed since.

[Alan Klein]

Spitzer was never a US Attorney but rather the Attorney General of New York which is an elected position.

Another "gotcha" correction, just like those when Trump make a factual error, that misses the overall point being made. 

[Alan Klein]

Alan,
very sorry to hear that.
I can imagine your position has changed since.

Thanks Pieter for you warm regards.  Here name was Lisa Raines; she was a passenger on Flight 77 that was crashed into the Pentagon.  Lisa was a smart, wonderful women and very caring person.  Everyone loved being around her.   My sister, Marilyn, who passed away a couple of years ago, never had a day when she didn't cry about Lisa.  For the most part, I've gotten over the bitterness and anger although it will be a fine day when they finally hang Sheik Mohammad, the mastermind of 9-11,  who's now being held in Gitmo.  Of course, anyone, whether in Europe of America or elsewhere, who becomes the victim of terrorism, takes on a different perspective.  But over time, my feelings and opinions come more from pragmatism than anger.