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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 918324 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1000 on: March 02, 2017, 07:42:59 pm »

You get that the theory is that Bannon and those of his ilk see Russia as the ally in an east/west ethno-nationalist conflict against Islam and/or China, right?

I agree that they see China as the future adversary.  You don't want to tie up forces in Europe at the same time against a belligerent Russia.  So, working with Russia allows you to concentrate forces in the Pacific.  If you work it right, that will make China concerned about their northern borders with Russia tying up Chinese forces worrying about the bear.   

The problem with guys like McCain and all the old warrior class, they're still fighting the Cold War or the last war.  They don't think out of the box like Trump.  He is a strategic thinker and that's why he won the election.  While all the old hands campaigned the old way, he thought out of the usual ways and beat them all.    His yelling and screaming and insults got him noticed against a field of 16 midgets including Bush.  Bush, the bother and son of two former presidents with $100 million campaign fund got, what, 5% of the vote.  Trump made him into a joke.  And he made Republican voters out of Democrat workers in swing states while Hillary met with the Hollywood elites and yucked it up on Saturday Night Live.   So now Trump is pivoting to "normal" behavior because he is, well, the President.   It's actually fascinating.  He's always one step in front.  The competition can't catch up to him.

JNB_Rare

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1001 on: March 02, 2017, 08:49:33 pm »

You get that the theory is that Bannon and those of his ilk see Russia as the ally in an east/west ethno-nationalist conflict against Islam and/or China, right?

It's a complex world. Trump has actually walked way back on his initial stance on China, during a conversation with China's Xi Jinping. Trump's supporters hint that it's because he must have gained concessions from the Chinese in order to agree to support the existing 'one China' policy. Some Chinese analysts agree, and are concerned that China has been weak. Others take the opposite stance: “Mr. Trump humiliated himself” and damaged U.S. credibility, said Guoqi Xu, a historian of Chinese international relations at the University of Hong Kong. Moderates from both countries agree that a stable relationship benefits both countries. Taiwan?

Ironically, China and the US may have some common ground in the enemy of ISIS, which recently released a video featuring Uighur fighters in the region. The Uighurs are a Turkic-speaking ethnic minority based in western China that have long chafed at Beijing's control. And Russia? Interesting that they defended Iran when Trump was tweeting aggressively about that country. And they also signed a deal with Iran for oil.

Bannon has real ideological goals (scary ones, IMO). Trump agrees with some of it, but, in the end, I think you have to follow the money with Donald.

Speaking of money (and those that have it), according to Bloomberg:

Since Trump's November 8 win, the 36 Chinese billionaires tracked by the Bloomberg Billionaires Index have seen their wealth climb 13.2%, a $39.2 billion bump that puts their combined wealth at $336 billion. Jack Ma is China's richest, with a net worth of $35.7 billion. The 28 Russian billionaires tracked on the index have increased their wealth by 10.5%, raising their aggregate fortunes by $24.4 billion to $256 billion. They've benefited from currency and commodities gains. The 171 US billionaires on the index have seen their combined net worth rise by about 4.7% since the election, adding $85 billion for a combined $1.9 trillion. Gosh, that's just 235 people worth almost $2.5 trillion dollars. Poor old Mexico's billionaires lost out, though, having their fortunes diminished by 5.1%.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1002 on: March 02, 2017, 09:47:31 pm »

You get that the theory is that Bannon and those of his ilk see Russia as the ally in an east/west ethno-nationalist conflict against Islam and/or China, right?

No, I do not get it. There is nothing to justify your "and/or."

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1003 on: March 02, 2017, 09:52:25 pm »

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/28/asia/australia-isis-arrest/
Give us a break, you are a Trump supporter we get that, the rest of the world hopes that he doesn't drag us into a G W Bush GFC or some trillion dollar war...

Thanks Tom and Australia for helping Trump fight the scourge of the 21st century (a.k.a. Obama's legacy):

Australian arrested for helping ISIS develop long-range missile technology

James Clark

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1004 on: March 02, 2017, 11:05:16 pm »

No, I do not get it. There is nothing to justify your "and/or."

Bannon is on record about his expectation for a China/Western conflict. And your Islamophobia is ugly.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 11:15:05 pm by James Clark »
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1005 on: March 02, 2017, 11:20:49 pm »

Oh good grief! Even camera calibration has gotten political.

Several days ago I noticed both MSNBC and CNN showing Sean Spicer with the most ashen coldest blue skin tone while Fox has his skin close to Xrite Color Checker Caucasian Lab numbers.

Just a coincidence? I mean this is getting ridiculous. All the cameras are shooting under the same conditions. It's not like this is the camera man's first rodeo.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 03:02:07 pm by Tim Lookingbill »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1006 on: March 02, 2017, 11:46:56 pm »

Bannon is on record about his expectation for a China/Western conflict. And your Islamophobia is ugly.

Was there any quote, by Trump or Bannon, that implicates Russia in that China/Western hypothetical conflict? Using Russia's help against ISIS is one thing, potential China/Western conflict quite another.

By the way, you don't agree with me that ISIS is the scourge of the 21st century?

Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1007 on: March 02, 2017, 11:51:54 pm »

Tom,  I assume you're Australian from your web address.  Should we cancel our ANZUS Treaty?  Australia and New Zealand would have to defend itself against China expansion on its own.   We could pull out of NATO too and let Europe deal with Russia by itself.   There are a lot of Americans, led by Trump,  who frankly are tired of Americans bleeding and spending trillions for others who only complain about America.  Trump really has no interest in getting into foreign adventures, other than ISIS,  and would probably abandon ANZUS and NATO if he wasn't pressured by people in his own party.  He wants to make nice with Russia but others are pushing him into belligerency.   Trump's an isolationist.

Australia is the ONLY country that has always fought alongside the US every single time you've asked.  Without fail.  Without exception.

ANZUS is in the interests of the US and always has been.  It's beneficial to all parties, not just us.  These sorts of "I'm taking my bat and ball home and don't want to play anymore" comments are awfully Trumpish.
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Phil Brown

pegelli

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1008 on: March 03, 2017, 02:29:02 am »

Trump will never win no matter what he does. 
Same happened to Obama, but by the other part of the population. It seems asking for some sensible bipartisan collaboration is a long way off. I think that's the heart of the problem, no will to compromise, so nothing (or little) of what's really needed gets done.
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pieter, aka pegelli

scyth

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1009 on: March 03, 2017, 02:33:47 am »

The problem with guys like McCain

the problem was that our missile didn't kill that SOB... what a pity.
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scyth

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1010 on: March 03, 2017, 02:42:09 am »

I remember how angry I was when the Soviets put missiles in Cuba in 1962.
but you did not feel angry when US put Jupiters in Turkey and Italy in 1961, no  ;D ?
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tom b

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1011 on: March 03, 2017, 06:08:51 am »

"Give us a break, you are a Trump supporter we get that, the rest of the world hopes that he doesn't drag us into a G W Bush GFC or some trillion dollar war."

Alan, I was alluding to the four trillion dollar global meltdown caused by unregulated American businesses. One of Trump's first actions was to once again deregulate American businesses. He also also appointed four executives from one of the companies that caused the meltdown.

The rest of the world is worried that this four time bankrupt is in charge of the world's largest economy.

One of the Donald's recent gaffs.

"It was a moment greeted with loud cheers from a crowd, many of whom were sporting the billionaire’s trademark ‘Make America Great Again’ baseball caps.

However, many of them didn’t realise those hats were made in China, Vietnam and Bangladesh." Truely an insulting gesture.

Trump is an isolationist:

"In his most recent financial disclosures, Trump listed 144 individual companies that have had dealings in at least 25 countries in Asia, Europe, Africa, South America and North America, among other companies with regional international interests, according to a CNN review." Sure he's isolationist.

Yep we worry, when America sneezes we all catch the flu. Which is why we worry when Trump can't get his basic messages right, how can he govern the "free world".

Worried,
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Tom Brown

Slobodan Blagojevic

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dreed

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1013 on: March 03, 2017, 08:31:18 am »

What we're trying to do here in America is clean up 30 years of government dereliction when they didn't bother to check anyone.
...

It would seem that from the mass shootings, etc, the problem isn't people emigrating TO America but those that are born IN America (notable exceptions aside.)

I think that's a bad idea, I prefer Trump governing rather then to continue his election campaign  ;)

He's already officially nominated for the 2020 so technically speaking, everything from now until 2020 *is* part of his election campaign.

Should we cancel our ANZUS Treaty?  Australia and New Zealand would have to defend itself against China expansion on its own.

Or Australia & New Zealand would deal in diplomacy. China would have to march through Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc, first - but Japan did that in WWII. If ANZUS were to be canceled and there is a divorce between Australia and the USA, then Pine Gap (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Gap) would close. If it broke up with New Zealand, it would lose Waihopai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waihopai_Station).

I just saw him make a speech on the new aircraft carrier in Virginia where he again stuck to the script of expanding the military, buying ships and planes cheaper, and supporting the troops.

Which means that the military expansion is really a government employment/welfare program. That was tried by another notable country in the first half of the 20th century...

Oh good grief! Even camera calibration has gotten political.

Several days ago I noticed both MSNBC and CNN showing Spencer with the most ashen coldest blue skin tone while Fox has his skin close to Xrite Color Checker Caucasian Lab numbers.

Just a coincidence?

Not likely. In election TV advertising against Obama, the GOP made sure that Obama was represented to be blacker than he really was.

He is a strategic thinker and that's why he won the election.  While all the old hands campaigned the old way, he thought out of the usual ways and beat them all.

Two things. (1) She was just more unelectable than he was. That's the DNP's fault for inbreeding. Had it been Bernie vs Donald ... DNP got what it deserved. (2) Trump appears to the LCD in people and then there was this http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2016/11/26/how-trumps-campaign-used-the-new-data-industrial-complex-to-win-the-election/, https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/how-our-likes-helped-trump-win. You are a statistic. You are a metric. They know who you are, how you think and how to push your button(s).

So, why doesn't Europe defend itself?  They're big enough.

Much of Europe has been gun-shy after beating itself up in the first half of the 20th century. Maybe time has worn on enough for that to be forgotten now? Maybe not. They've been trying this "Euro" experiment to try and make countries rely upon the well being of other countries as the means to avoid war. So far it has worked...
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1014 on: March 03, 2017, 08:46:55 am »

but you did not feel angry when US put Jupiters in Turkey and Italy in 1961, no  ;D ?

You obviously missed the point I was making that all countries worry when potential adversaries put forces on their border.  Anyway, the missiles were 55 years ago in the middle of the Cold War which is now over 25 years.  There's no reason America and Russia shouldn't respect one another and get along; they have some common interests as well such as Islamic terrorists.    This is something Trump has indicated he wants to do.  Unfortunately, many in the American and European elite want him to take a belligerent position against Russia because of Russia's move into Crimea and Ukraine and Georgia.  The Baltic states are worried they're next.  Certainly the Russians didn't help Trump or themselves with their hacking of the DNC.  It pissed off Republicans as well as Democrats and is forcing Trump's hand to be tougher on Russia.  You should have stayed out of our election.   

JNB_Rare

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1015 on: March 03, 2017, 09:36:05 am »

By the way, you don't agree with me that ISIS is the scourge of the 21st century?

ISIS is yet another example of just how depraved humans can become while cloaking themselves in the "righteousness" of a malignant form of religion, ethnic pride or nationalism. The challenge is to separate the malignancy from the whole. Are all Muslims ISIS? Were all Bosnian Serbs involved in the rape, genocide, ethnic cleansing of Bosnian Muslims (and Croats)?

My wife claims that I have been depressed since 9/11, and she may well be right. Though I had no personal connection (as in friends or family lost), they were the most shocking and disturbing events to have happened in my lifetime. The ideology behind jihadist terrorism and ISIS is completely alien and repugnant to me. But I also know from personal experience working with Muslims, that they viewed al-Qaeda then, and ISIS now, as a perversion of their faith, and they are equally appalled.

I was 5 or 6 the first time I witnessed uncompromising hatred. An English neighbour of ours openly despised everyone and everything German. He had been a British foot-soldier in World War II, and a prisoner of war. He talked proudly about provoking “the Hun, krauts, squareheads, boche, jerry” every chance he got in the POW camp. And he suffered greatly for his efforts, being beaten regularly. I cannot imagine what he went through. Curiously, though, he almost never used the word Nazi, was “tight-lipped” about Jews, and more openly derisive of any "non-white".

My father also fought in WWII (Canadian Artillery), first in Sicily and later in the liberation of Holland. And my mother served with the British Women’s Air Corps as a radio operator at Hemel Hempstead. They experienced the Blitz together, and lost friends and loved ones during the war. But neither carried a sense of bitterness forward. My father talked about the Germans who were surrendering to his unit near the end of the war. By this time, many were boys and old men who had been pressed into service. He noticed their belt buckles, which read “Gott mit uns” (God with us). He spoke about how, if he had been born in Germany, he might well have been swept up in the fever, and joined the Hitler Youth. He cautioned me about the perils of nationalism, but supported the notion that war was, at times, necessary.

I know that my perspective is the culmination of my life's experiences and environment. Were I to have grown up in the Middle East, for example, I might think about things differently. Nonetheless, to me, the scourge of any century has been bigotry and fear. It's what ISIS promotes, and if we respond in kind, then they have succeeded in making us more like them. By all means, target ISIS and like organizations as a genuine and serious threat. But, please, let us step back from the edge of prejudice and bigotry, and the rhetoric that promotes it.

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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1016 on: March 03, 2017, 10:21:44 am »

I know that my perspective is the culmination of my life's experiences and environment. Were I to have grown up in the Middle East, for example, I might think about things differently. Nonetheless, to me, the scourge of any century has been bigotry and fear. It's what ISIS promotes, and if we respond in kind, then they have succeeded in making us more like them. By all means, target ISIS and like organizations as a genuine and serious threat. But, please, let us step back from the edge of prejudice and bigotry, and the rhetoric that promotes it.

+1

Cheers,
Bart
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James Clark

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1017 on: March 03, 2017, 10:25:01 am »

Was there any quote, by Trump or Bannon, that implicates Russia in that China/Western hypothetical conflict? Using Russia's help against ISIS is one thing, potential China/Western conflict quite another.

By the way, you don't agree with me that ISIS is the scourge of the 21st century?

Implicates is too strong of a word, but there are quotes aplenty that show that conflict is expected (desired?) with China, and ISIS is self-evident.  It's also known that Russia and China had been tightening relations, but now may be drifting apart somewhat, and it's only logical that if conflict with China is seen as inevitable, the more distance that can be put between Russian and China, whatever the cost, would be seen as beneficial.

With regard to ISIS being the scourge of the 21st century, no, I don't agree with that. For one, the century is young.  Would you have said in 1917 that Prussians were the scourge of the 20th?   Maybe a case could be made for the Bolsheviks early in the century, but then the Nazis came along, and then fundamentalist regimes came to power in the latter part of the century, giving rise to Muslim extremism that we are now calling the scourge of our time.   So who knows?  On the whole, though, I'm personally a lot more concerned about North Korea doing something stupid, Russia threatening Europe, or an unnecessary stand being taken in Taiwan, for example, than I am a bunch of lone wolf one-off attacks by nut jobs that draw inspiration from ISIS. (I find it interesting, by the way, that certain elements are so willing to write off Russian expansion, while considering Chinese expansion a thrown gauntlet).

JNB, just above me, really sums it up well, I think.  *Of course* radicalism is a threat, but to give the fear of it such power is the wrong path IMO.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1018 on: March 03, 2017, 11:47:19 am »

No one suggests we prostrate ourselves in fear because of ISIS, Al Khaida and other terrorists.  However, taking reasonable precautions is smart.  We did lose a few thousand Americans due to terrorism.  That's real.  Unfortunately, extreme positions on both sides have been staked out in America for local political reasons. 

Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #1019 on: March 03, 2017, 05:04:53 pm »

Or Australia & New Zealand would deal in diplomacy. China would have to march through Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc, first - but Japan did that in WWII. If ANZUS were to be canceled and there is a divorce between Australia and the USA, then Pine Gap (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Gap) would close. If it broke up with New Zealand, it would lose Waihopai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waihopai_Station).

As well as earth stations for satellite communications, logistical support for operations in the Pacific and Indian oceans and Antarctica, the marines stationed in Darwin, access to intel, access to information from the Jindalee OTHR, and so on.

China is also unlikely to be able to sustain an invasion of Australia - the lines of supply (as Dreed notes) would have to extend through many countries.  If you actually land in the north of Australia, you're basically walking into another Vietnam through the jungles, deserts, and vast amounts of nothing.  No easy supplies, no sustainable supply lines, easy evacuation of the population, and a military force specifically designed to defend in those conditions.  It would be very costly and drawn out.  Attempting to head further south exposes your supply lines further and maritime forces against land-based air and coastal naval forces will struggle.  China doesn't have the required naval power projection nor the capacity to bring any significant portion of their military here and support it.  Even the US, easily the strongest in these areas, would be at their limits.  The only real risk is nuclear.

So if you want to tear up a treaty that has historically benefitted the US the most just because of some disagreements, then that speaks volumes.
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Phil Brown
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