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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 918122 times)

JNB_Rare

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #280 on: February 10, 2017, 02:32:25 pm »

Isn't this all far more complicated than it's supposed to be?

Isn't it always more complicated when things get political?  :)

Kellyanne Conway said that WH Press Secretary Sean Spicer gave 'alternative facts', when she tried to counter the assertion that Spicer's statement of fact was plainly false (regarding the size of the crowd at T's inauguration). Her comment really spurred the use of 'alternative fact' as a euphemism for falsehood, or propaganda (unintentionally, of course). But there's also been a push-back by some to legitimize alternative fact – to promote the idea that alternative facts don't have to be lies.

I think many in the press jumped on Conway (and Spicer) because they are very watchful for attempts to dissemble or use canards. And because they abhor the idea of a politician saying "Let me give you an alternative fact about that". I'm sure that media sympathetic to the WH downplayed or ignored the controversy. Of course, none of this prevents politicians from doing what they've always done with their statements of fact.

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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #281 on: February 11, 2017, 12:35:59 am »

Kellyanne Conway said that WH Press Secretary Sean Spicer gave 'alternative facts', when she tried to counter the assertion that Spicer's statement of fact was plainly false (regarding the size of the crowd at T's inauguration). Her comment really spurred the use of 'alternative fact' as a euphemism for falsehood, or propaganda (unintentionally, of course). But there's also been a push-back by some to legitimize alternative fact – to promote the idea that alternative facts don't have to be lies.

Yeah, ya know, the Merriam-Webster dictionary even weighed in on Twitter, reminding Conway that “A fact is a piece of information presented as having objective reality.”

There is no legitimate place where the term "alternative fact" is really anything other than a lie. To further argue that point I turn to Scientific American magazine–not known as a bastion of either leftwing or rightwign views but simply scientific views...

Check out this article The Delusion of Alternative Facts How science can guide the search for "actual" truth in our post-truth era.

The take away at the end says:
"In our new era of fake news and post-truth gloom, the quest for objective truth and (non-alternative) facts has become more critical than ever before. Scientists and journalists must join forces in this common endeavor, and not hesitate to call out present and future falsehoods, whether due to innocent mistakes or to frank attempts to mislead. Whereas post-truth is an illusion—with no basis in reality—the actual truth is impervious to our wishes, emotions or beliefs. The scientific method teaches us that we will only ever attain truth by stubbornly stripping away every piece of misinformation that stands in its way. Investigative reporting and aggressive fact-checking will be crucial to get us there."

Alternative Facts can not stand as the new normal...
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #282 on: February 11, 2017, 01:36:39 am »

It continues...

Federal official calls on Trump to share evidence of ‘astonishing’ voter fraud claim

"Trump made baseless claims during a Friday lunch that voter fraud prevented him and former N.H. senator Kelly Ayotte from winning their respective races in New Hampshire during the November election.

Specifically, he suggested that out-of-state voters were bused into New Hampshire to cast their ballots for someone other than Trump and Ayotte. There is no evidence to back up that assertion.
"

Also, Donald Trump is still calling Elizabeth Warren ‘Pocahontas’

"Trump also used the “Pocahontas” reference several times during the campaign. Last May, when asked about his feud with Warren in an interview with The New York Times, he responded, “You mean Pocahontas?”

Then there's this...Donald Trump Stunned To Learn Presidency Is An Actual Job, His First based on this article Trump vexed by challenges, scale of government The new president’s allies say he has been surprised that government can’t be run like his business.


Sources say the mood of President Donald Trump in the three weeks since his inauguration has careened between surprise and anger. | Getty via the Politico web site.
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laughingbear

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #283 on: February 11, 2017, 03:37:49 am »

The raids conducted by ICE in apparently six states so far triggered "a picture" in my mind.

9-10 November 1938, Germany, Night of Broken Glass.

10-11 February 2017, USA, "Enforcement Actions In Target Rich Environments" (ICE Language)

Meanwhile in Germany....  Ministers agreed on a 16 step plan for mass deportation of Refugees back to their countries of origin, safe countries only, of course, like Afghanistan is according to the Federal Minister of the Interior, Thomas de Maizière.

Oh, and did I get that right? Trump had a very pleasant phone call with Erdogan? Why am I not astonished...



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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #284 on: February 11, 2017, 06:01:05 am »

Investigative reporting and aggressive fact-checking will be crucial to get us there.

Yes, I've said it before, high-quality investigative reporting is more important now than ever (in recent history) before.

Which is exactly the reason that DJT is trying to marginalize the free press, totally bypassing them with Twitter, and tying their resources up with the monumental task to debunk all the Alternative facts falsehoods that are produced.

The stream of executive orders is a tactic, a) it's suggesting that he is keeping his promises, and b) he can put the blame of those not becoming reality with others.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 06:11:56 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #285 on: February 11, 2017, 07:51:33 am »

Yeah, ya know, the Merriam-Webster dictionary even weighed in on Twitter, reminding Conway that “A fact is a piece of information presented as having objective reality.”

There is no legitimate place where the term "alternative fact" is really anything other than a lie. To further argue that point I turn to Scientific American magazine–not known as a bastion of either leftwing or rightwign views but simply scientific views...

Alternative Facts can not stand as the new normal...
The first time I heard something really outrageous was back in December when I was listening to the Diane Rehm show that originates on our NPR station but is broadcast nation wide.  Scottie Nell Hughes, a Trump supporter, and CNN commentator said that "...there is no such thing as facts and longer..."  You can go to the Washington Post link HERE which also contains a link to the broadcast.  I almost had to pull my car off the road because I could  not believe what I heard.  Jim Fallows, national correspondent for The Atlantic, was dumbfounded and responded right back with some expamples of facts which Ms. Hughes dismissed.

Secondly, I was listening to the news conference with Trump and Japanese PM Abe yesterday afternoon and Trump sounded pretty weird.  I don't know if he was tired or not but his speech had a strange affect and he was repeating things more than usual.  He did repeat that we will soon get new health insurance options which will be far better than Obamacare and cost much less.  I can't wait to see how they pull this rabbit out of a hat.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #286 on: February 11, 2017, 10:24:28 am »

The first time I heard something really outrageous was back in December when I was listening to the Diane Rehm show that originates on our NPR station but is broadcast nation wide.  Scottie Nell Hughes, a Trump supporter, and CNN commentator said that "...there is no such thing as facts and longer..."  You can go to the Washington Post link HERE which also contains a link to the broadcast.  I almost had to pull my car off the road because I could  not believe what I heard.  Jim Fallows, national correspondent for The Atlantic, was dumbfounded and responded right back with some expamples of facts which Ms. Hughes dismissed.

Maybe we should call that the United State(s) of Denial, instead of USA?

Cheers,
Bart
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James Clark

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #287 on: February 11, 2017, 11:34:48 am »

It continues...

Federal official calls on Trump to share evidence of ‘astonishing’ voter fraud claim

"Trump made baseless claims during a Friday lunch that voter fraud prevented him and former N.H. senator Kelly Ayotte from winning their respective races in New Hampshire during the November election.

Specifically, he suggested that out-of-state voters were bused into New Hampshire to cast their ballots for someone other than Trump and Ayotte. There is no evidence to back up that assertion.
"


Listen - we're gonna have to build a wall.  The BEST wall, believe me.  And Massachusetts is going pay for it.   ;D

Seriously though - NH actually has a voter ID law.  And how many busses would it take to transport 3001 illegal voters into NH on election day?  And how come the voter fraud is only happening in places Trump lost, and only by just enough to cause him to lose.  And how come only Clinton benefitted from those votes? And how come... aw, never mind....

Whether you think his policy positions are reasonable or not, this is absurd and simply shouldn't be defended.
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JNB_Rare

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #288 on: February 11, 2017, 03:13:58 pm »

Alternative voters?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #289 on: February 11, 2017, 06:08:38 pm »

By arguing there is no voter fraud and you should just believe that because we say so, just encourages more suspicion.  Investigating and proving there is no voter fraud would do  good things.  It would appease Republican concerns and bust their arguments for voter ID requirements as having no value.  This would make it easier for Democrats to push voter registration without the encumbrances of additional regulation, one of their pet projects.

Rand47

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #290 on: February 11, 2017, 07:07:12 pm »

Alternative Fact is an oxymoron!

Now the definition of fact has changed!

Yup, now you're on to something.  The Oxford Dictionary's "Word of the Year" for 2016 is "Post-truth."  https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/word-of-the-year/word-of-the-year-2016
It fits well with our post-modern discussion here.  "My metanarrative is bigger than your metanarrative."

In the absence of any sort of consensus on what "country" means, or "social justice," or "freedom of speech," or "illegal," or "rights," or "life," or "immoral," or even "is.." we're in deep trouble, I think. 

Trump is, indeed, a moron of the first order.  But he tapped into something in the American psyche that isn't just easily dismissed as "all those rubes where hoodwinked."  I don't think that's true.  Many, perhaps most, Trump supporters may be less articulate than the average liberal news pundit - but don't mistake that for "misinformed."  The problem is precisely that they are "informed enough" to be really pissed off about being largely ignored and having their values seen as subversive, or oppressive.  There is a "real" divide in the U.S.  One metanarrative will win.  Those on the losing side (ultimately the conservative middle-American, person of faith, I think) will be driven underground and permanently silenced at some point in the not too distant future.  I view Trump's presidency as a kind of "last really bad joke" for those who have what used to be a normative, conservative, view of the American dream.  His ridiculousness will make it that much easier for a hegemony of political correctness and an embrace of pluralism to the point where we'll all have to be very careful not to offend anyone, to reassert itself.  But, this is more the norm in history, than not.  Most people, in most of history, have had to be very careful not to speak ill of the dominant metanarrative - often on peril of their freedom, or even their lives. 

If the "Brights" are to be believed, this is all fine and dandy.  As I cited in another thread here on LULA, respected thinkers like Professor Richard Dawkins (author of, "The God Delusion") has expressed it like this:   “The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”

Dr. Dawkins isn't some raving lunatic.  He's very well respected.  I think he's a harbinger of what will become the dominant metanarrative (actually it already is).  Few have the courage to speak so plainly.  Some people are going to get hurt, others are going to get lucky.  At least this is honest.

As the more liberal (politically) and materialist/humanist (philosophically) regain political dominance (and they will, without doubt - I think) the return swing toward an oppressive form of "enlightened thinking" will bring a brave new world.  Some people are going to get hurt, others are going to get lucky.  Meanwhile, in other parts of this planet, cultures with very cohesive and dominant worldview systems will gain power, resources, and the ability to pick this country apart, little by little, until it implodes.

So, cheer up . . . Trump is a mere blip on the radar of our march toward the future.

Rand






« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 07:24:13 pm by Rand47 »
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James Clark

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #291 on: February 11, 2017, 09:01:22 pm »

By arguing there is no voter fraud and you should just believe that because we say so, just encourages more suspicion.  Investigating and proving there is no voter fraud would do  good things.  It would appease Republican concerns and bust their arguments for voter ID requirements as having no value.  This would make it easier for Democrats to push voter registration without the encumbrances of additional regulation, one of their pet projects.

Sure - investigate away.  I have no issue with it.  Investigate CA, investigate NH.   (But remember that "your side" had a major fit when Jill Stein wanted pay for an investigation in WI and MI).

Just answer me this.  Do you honestly believe that the exact amount of "illegal" votes were cast to allow HRC got win CA, and that coincidentally, just the right amount of "illegal" votes were cast to allow her to win NH as well?  You've gotta admit, it's a pretty goofy idea.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 09:06:14 pm by James Clark »
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Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #292 on: February 11, 2017, 10:42:15 pm »

The reason you don't investigate these claims of voter fraud is the same reason the cops don't investigate when someone tells them that Superman stole their watch by flying down in front of them and then ripping it off their arms.  Neither story has any evidence to warrant and investigation.

Here's the thing - there aren't always two sides to everything.  Not all opinions are valid or even worthwhile.  If you want to make accusations of voter fraud you need some evidence, and it needs to come from a credible source.  Of course, if someone had that, it would have already been made available to the relevant authorities and an investigation begun.
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Phil Brown

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #293 on: February 12, 2017, 12:32:57 am »

I don't think we should be afraid of what an investigation would show.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #294 on: February 12, 2017, 12:41:32 am »

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Saying that voter fraud is negligible because very few cases are documented or prosecuted is the same as saying the amount of drug trafficking should be judged by the number of caught drug traffickers.

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #295 on: February 12, 2017, 12:55:03 am »

By arguing there is no voter fraud and you should just believe that because we say so, just encourages more suspicion.

So, here's the problem with that...the claims have been made by a wing nut crackpot who claims to have created an iPhone/Android app called VoteStand that has PROOF that over 3 million fraudulent votes were cast on Nov 8. Problem is, it's all a shame as talked about in this article: VoteStand: Donald Trump relies on unknown app to back up claims of voter fraud. From the article:

""Look forward to seeing final results of VoteStand," Mr Trump tweeted, apparently in reference to seeing final data from the app. "Gregg Phillips and crew say at least 3,000,000 votes were illegal. We must do better!"

But VoteStand is an amateur app that allows people to send in their own reports of voter fraud. The app has been downloaded just a few thousand times and is barely used.

When people do use the app, they can only send in a report of a problem, many of which are impossible to verify and might not depict voter fraud at all. One Twitter user pointed out how the app claims to show an instance of voter fraud in a picture of some wires surrounding a voting booth, for instance – but on closer inspection those wires are simply the power cables for a fan that was in the room.
"

This Gregg Phillips fella has steadfastly refused to show his data or prove the numbers he claims. Want some additional info on Mr. Phillips, check this NBC News article Who Is Gregg Phillips, the Man Trump Name-Checked to Prove Voter Fraud?. Hum, President Trump maybe you should not hang your credibility on a crackpot.

Or maybe it's the report that Spicer was talking about when he said "I think there's been studies," Spicer responded. "There's one that came out of Pew in 2008 that showed 14 percent of people who voted were noncitizens. There's other studies that have been presented to him. It's a belief he maintains." Uh, well, check out this article Sean Spicer wrongly uses Pew study to bolster claim that non-citizens vote in large numbers. It says "The study that "came out of Pew in 2008" actually came out in 2012, and it’s about outdated voter rolls, not fraudulent votes.

The 2012 Pew Study — titled, "Inaccurate, Costly, and Inefficient: Evidence That America’s Voter Registration System Needs an Upgrade" —  makes no mention of noncitizens voting or registering to vote."

So, ok...not a lot of actual hard evidence of any widespread voter fraud. There is one recent case in Texas: Grand Prairie woman illegally voted for the man responsible for prosecuting her. Ironic that Ortega voted in the November 2012 election and May 2014 GOP primary runoff in Dallas County knowing she wasn't a U.S. citizen. Problem is, that's the only recent case and she voted GOP.

Maybe Trump was thinking about True the Vote President Catherine Engelbrecht who claims Voter Fraud Has Been ‘Institutionalized,’ Allowing Non-Citizen Voters to ‘Flood Our Rolls’. Slight problem–the story is on http://www.breitbart.com which doesn't have an a good track record of stellar journalism ya know?

But, even if we admit that investigating alleged voter fraud might be a good idea, who is gonna pay? According to this article, not the feds...Mitch McConnell won’t fund President Trump’s voter fraud investigation. McConnell won't give federal funds to an investigation because "there’s no evidence" behind Trump's wild assertions.

But even if we did investigate voter fraud, Forbes says Voter 'Fraud' Charges Are A Scheme To Further Stack The Deck And Undermine The System. The fear it seems is that alleged voter fraud will be used to reduce voter participation:

"However, there are also those who would welcome charges of voter fraud as an excuse to reduce voter participation. For example, multiple studies, including a recent one from the University of California San Diego, have shown that voter ID laws disproportionately affect and hurt Latinos, blacks, and multi-racial Americans.

For the courts and for American democracy the core question should be—are these laws fair? Do they limit the access and participation of the nation’s most disadvantaged? Are these laws racially discriminatory? The findings presented here indicate that these laws do, in fact, have real consequences for the makeup of the voting population. Where they are enacted, racial and ethnic minorities are less apt to vote. The voices of Latinos, Blacks, and multi-racial Americans all become more muted and the relatively influence of white Americans grows. An already significant racial skew in American democracy becomes all the more pronounced."


So, you see, words have consequences...Trump claiming widespread voter fraud as the reason he lost the popular vote trickles down to his supporters and surrogates who then cling to outrageous and fraudulent claims and this brings down the whole system of democracy that people have fought and died for.

Again, honesty and veracity are extremely valuable and becoming more rare by the day. This kinda says it all: Trump’s Presidency Is Officially A Dumpster Fire As Voters Trust SNL More Than Trump. "A new Public Policy Polling poll revealed that American voters have so little trust Trump that they find Saturday Night Live to be more credible than the President."

Ouch, that's gonna leave a bruise...
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #296 on: February 12, 2017, 01:15:53 am »

From https://forwardprogressives.com (yeah, ok it's a leftwing progressive site) comes this: At This Point, If You’re Still a Donald Trump Supporter, Here’s What You Really Are. It contains a list of things to remember about Trump:

This is a man who’s:

Mocked a man with disabilities.

Attacked the parents of a fallen American hero.

Belittled POWs and the war record of Sen. John McCain.

Lied about how much money he raised for veterans.

Called a former Miss Universe “disgusting” and fat, telling his Twitter followers to find her non-existent sex tape.

Accused an American-born federal judge of being unfit to do his job because of his Mexican heritage.

Likely avoided paying taxes for nearly two decades.

Called most Mexican immigrants rapists and criminals, even though that’s not remotely factual.

Lied about seeing “thousands and thousands” of Muslims celebrating in New Jersey on 9/11.

Lied about getting a letter from the NFL complaining about the debate schedule.

Tried to exploit the death of an African American woman in Chicago to say that’s why black voters will support him.

Found the “bright side” to tragedies because his poll numbers tend to go up.

Settled with the Department of Justice after his company was found guilty of racially discriminating against minorities.

Has cheated on at least one wife.

Was just discovered on video admitting that he not only tried to cheat on his current wife, but he attempted to do so with another married woman.

Had his first wife publicly say that he did nothing when it came to raising their children until they were old enough to talk business.

Tweeted that women should have expected to be sexually assaulted when they mixed males and females together in the military.
Said he wants to target the families of terrorists.

Stated that he wants to ban an entire religion.

Praised a Russian president who obviously hates the U.S. and Americans.

Encouraged the Russian government to commit espionage against Americans.

Insinuated that another Republican’s wife was ugly.

Tried to implicate another Republican’s father in JFK’s assassination.

Sought out the help of former Fox News CEO Roger Ailes after he was fired following multiple allegations that he had sexually harassed women for years.

Made Breitbart’s Steve Bannon one of his top campaign people.

Had a former campaign manager abruptly resign after a report came out linking him to pro-Russian groups that were directly trying to undermine U.S. policy in eastern Europe.

Called Carly Fiornia ugly.

Has said climate change was a hoax created by the Chinese — then denied saying it.

Was a leading conspiracy theorist when it came to the racist-driven birther conspiracies against President Obama.

Dismissed nearly eight years of accusing the president of not being an American with a less than 30 second statement where he didn’t apologize for any of it.

Tried to blame Hillary Clinton for his racism.

Re-tweeted anti-African American propaganda created by a white supremacy group.

Played dumb about knowing who former Grand Wizard of the KKK David Duke was.

Skipped a presidential debate because he was scared of a moderator.

Has, on several occasions, suggested he finds his daughter attractive.

Called a husband doing things like changing diapers and helping with the children, a man “trying to be the wife.”

Has said he wants more countries to have nuclear weapons.

Said he can’t release his tax returns because they’re currently being audited — even though the IRS said that’s a lie.

Feels he has the right to sexually assault women.



Too bad becoming President of the United States of America hasn't changed him...if anything he's becoming worse since his words carry the weight of the office.

Edited to correct typo.
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #297 on: February 12, 2017, 01:31:49 am »

Ruh-roh!

New Jersey congressman invokes 1924 tax law giving Congress power to examine Trump's tax returns

Hum....

By the way, it was Astro from the Jetsons who made the Ruh-roh not Scooby Doo. But the same guy Don Messick voiced both characters, and Scooby Doo, who has been around since 1969, is both more contemporary and more popular than "The Jetsons," which first aired in 1962.

:~)
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laughingbear

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #298 on: February 12, 2017, 02:21:58 am »

Quote
it was Astro from the Jetsons who made the Ruh-roh not Scooby Doo
LOL

This German TV chap who became well known for his "abusive criticism" of Erdogan, came up with this song back in 11/2016. Not too shabby. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZc8tBtIDhI
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 02:36:00 am by laughingbear »
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Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #299 on: February 12, 2017, 04:36:57 am »

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Saying that voter fraud is negligible because very few cases are documented or prosecuted is the same as saying the amount of drug trafficking should be judged by the number of caught drug traffickers.

That's one of the worst analogies I've ever heard.

All I've said is to provide some actual evidence of voter fraud, and then pass it on to the authorities for investigation.  Creating a congressional (or some other federal) format to investigate without any evidence of systemic or widespread wrongdoing is a waste of money, something that Trump is supposed to be against, right?

If it's so widespread (millions, right?) how hard could it possibly be to get some evidence?
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Phil Brown
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